I just watch the OT and I don't think about the others. Headcanon works for me. If anybody else watches the ST and they hate them, they probably headcanon them out, too.
Super 8 is probably the best example of Abrams' work. I think that it does speak to a director who is reasonably good at what he does. I did like that movie. I think if he did more stuff like that, we might see more of his potential realized. Not with the blockbuster stuff that's too "corporate" for Abrams to really stretch himself with.
I would argue that, to some extent, too much and too much subpar go hand-in-hand. Okay, they aren't a 1:1 ratio, but when people spend years lovingly crafting a story from concept to final film, it shows in the quality of the work. When they bust them out two to a year, it's just some top-down executive thing crushing out stories. "ANOTHER ONE NOW!" so nobody really cares about the product by the end of it. You can see the love Favreau and Whedon put into Iron Man and The Avengers. As the MCU went on, it was just about making "the next one," and who cares what it is? Yeah, you're right, a lot of it is the subpar-ness of the product. You can't feel the love.
So, along those lines, I think that's why I think if they had just focused on the one trilogy, they could (could, not would) have saved it, because they wouldn't have been pulled in all these different directions with Rogue One and Solo and other cancelled spinoffs (though cancelled, they still were being developed and took focus away).
Oh, definitely primed for mediocrity. With The Mandalorian making fans, critics, and general audiences all happy (more or less) for once, they'll go, "Okay, give 'em more of THAT!" and just start jamming out rush-made shows about Obi-Wan and Ahsoka or whoever, and they'll go woke again, and they won't put the care into it. Maybe not with those shows, but sooner or later they'll phone it in. It's like creativity has entropy, too.
Lucas and Kasdan made magic. But, the thing is, I almost feel like they'd also want to bring Gary Kurtz back on, or somebody like that. Somebody who would actually tell Lucas, "No." Lucas' best stuff was done when he had to fight. He had a personal project and fought to see it through, and that got him working in ways that made a great project. Left to his own, he dropped the ball.
And, look, I'm not saying Lucas is a bad filmmaker or a hack or talentless. Some people do that, but I still think Lucas is a talented, really creative guy, he just got a little soft, too. He's not immune to creative entropy. So he needs somebody to hold his feet to the fire and go, "No, this one needs a second draft, George. No, you shouldn't stick Jar-Jar Binks into this movie. You can have a trilogy with slaughter of the innocents and political machinations or you can have a child's adventure trilogy, but both is weird." Stuff like that.
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Threadkiller (3089)
4 years ago
We can all headcanon out the ST all we want but it without a retcon it won't change that moving forward we can never get any new interesting stories involving our classic OT heroes or their non existent heirs. The ST also squandered the opportunity to allow audiences to EVER see Hammill, Ford, and Fisher onscreen together again.
Funny you should mention Super 8 as a perfect example of Abrams work. I don't disagree and for me that's not a good thing. I don't remember the feeling the movie was bad when I watched it but I realize I can barely remember a thing about the movie. In typical Abrams fashion it was able to hold my attention at the time but after all was said and done it was ultimately forgettable fluff.
I don't think time would have helped very much if Abrams still had the same level of involvement. Too many of his ideas were just fundamentally terrible from the ground up.
On Lucas, I actually agree that having someone around him to challenge & refine certain ideas wouldn't be a bad thing. I love the prequels but I have no problem admitting that episodes 1-2 in particular weren't flawless & could have been improved upon had Lucas done things differently in a few places.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
4 years ago
Yes, but as an OT person, I haven't had a really interesting story out of Star Wars since ROTJ, anyway. Which also means I'm quite practiced at headcanoning things. I just ignore it all and leave everything to those that are fans. If people love the ST or PT, great, but neither are for me.
The ST did make a MAJOR misstep in not allowing Hamill, Ford, and Fisher on screen together once more. There should have been a huge reunion scene at some point in the trilogy and they failed there.
Super 8 is the best example of his potential, but not his potential fulfilled, I would say. I'm largely with you: I remember its being good, but I don't remember a lot else (although I do think Stranger Things' creators probably saw it at least once...)
There's an alternate universe out there somewhere where Lucas actually talked Spielberg into directing the prequels for him and I'd like to see those films; he definitely benefits when challenged and when surrounded by brilliant storytellers.
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Threadkiller (3089)
4 years ago
However a person may feel about the PT films, what they didn't do is undermine everything that the OT accomplished & dictate the direction of everything that happened afterwards the way the Di$ney trilogy did. But I guess if a person's take is simply that they love the OT movies and aren't really invested in anything else Star Wars then it wouldn't be as big of a deal as it would for those who care about the lore beyond just the films.
I just wanted to clarify that I didn't suggest that I remembered Super 8 being good. I vaguely recall being very middle of the road about it. All I remember is the general synopsis. Something about some sort of alien invasion, centered around some kids, possibly in an 80s setting. No memorable lines, characters or specific scenes that I can recall.
I like the PT "mostly" the way it is but I'm not offended by the hypothetical "what if" scenario of Lucas hiring other talented people to direct his vision for the prequels. The Di$ney trilogy absolutely needed this & could have had it but we all know how that turned out.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
4 years ago
No, but they did muck up the Darth Vader character. I have to block out "cloying kid" and "petulant man-child" from that character arc.
Yeah, for me, I just start the movies at IV, end 'em at VI, happily-ever-after - it's all good...
You're right, I think; Super 8 was good but not great and not particularly memorable.
And, again, I do get why people like the PT. It has a lot of cool stuff in it, they're just not my bag (and that writing is sub-par).
The ST went clunk the minute they didn't hire one writer (or one-three writers as a team) to do nothing for a few months while they came up with the story arc, the scripts, the works. They needed that foundational point of excellent writing. They blew it and those movies, subsequently, mostly blew. The best one is TFA, and the best I can say about it is, as I said above, that it's dumb fun if you shut your brain off and pretend it isn't canon.
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Threadkiller (3089)
4 years ago
Vader, especially by the OT timeline, is is for all intents and purposes a very different person than Anakin Skywalker, so not being all that crazy about Anakin's characterization in the PT should just make it all the more easy to accept them as fundamentally separate characters with no feeling that one contradicts the other.
Apart from perhaps a few famously clunky dialogue scenes, I never saw any significant issue with the PT dialogue and no issues whatsoever with the writing in terms of storytelling.
I agree with everything in your last point about the Di$ney trilogy expect for the idea that TFA was the "best" one which I in fact believe was categorically the worst. Especially with the benefit of hindsight. It deserves the harshest criticism because Abrams had no restrictions with TFA & easily could have gone anywhere with it yet absolutely sh*t the bed with it, setting the sequels up for failure, with nothing to blame but his own lack of lack of talent to come up with anything better.
As bad as they may have also been, the sequels (TLJ in particular) were restricted to directly following up the piss poor groundwork that was laid before them. "But TFA could have been salvaged in the sequel" Many of us who immediately saw TFA for what it was knew from the jump that the Di$ney trilogy was an irreparable dumpster fire, saying as much back in 2015 but were largely ignored & drowned out by all the poor, misguided hopefuls. I was so thoroughly checked out by the time TLJ came around that I was actually able to mindlessly "enjoy" that one the most. Visually I thought it had the more memorable set pieces & much preferred the way it was directed, when compared to Abrams' mindlessly break neck, ADHD pacing & explosions every 5 minutes.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
4 years ago
I find it easy to separate all three trilogies.
I had issues with the storytelling, but I'm not looking to be "right" here, so unless you're curious, I won't get into it. I feel like this can be a "to each their own" sort of deal.
Interesting. TFA was the most fun to me, and because it set stuff badly instead of continuing/finishing it badly, it hadn't driven in all the coffin nails yet.
You do raise a great point, though, about how it squanders unfettered potential while TLJ and ROS had to pay off bad setups (which is TFA's fault).
I do think TFA could have been salvaged by the sequel, although your point is well-taken; TFA did make that an uphill battle.
TLJ for me was the moment I knew it was all over. Plus it was terribly written...
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Threadkiller (3089)
4 years ago
Fair enough about being able to separate the trilogies but I was just making a point about how the characterization of Anakin doesn't intrinsically have an effect on Darth Vader of the OT in the way that the total clusterf*ck of the Di$ney trilogy directly impacted the narratives and characters of the PT & OT alike in very negative ways.
I don't really have a problem with the rest of your take, as we may not agree on certain points but your arguments are for the most part, pretty measured & reasonable.
You certainly won't see me arguing that TLJ wasn't poorly written but even considering the film's own unique problems, it's simply ever present in my mind that it at least has the excuse of being to a large extent, limited to the a confines of a shoddily constructed continuity, having no choice but to be an immediate continuation of an already poorly written, & an even more disjointed mess that had no such excuse.
Anyway, I think we're about at the point that we've pretty much said most of what we have to say in this on going exchange, so I'll leave the last comment to you for the time being, if you want it.
Thanks for a rare engaging discussion that didn't quickly descend into belittling & name calling.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
4 years ago
I see what you mean. For me, I still have to lever things out and pretend they aren't in existence.
TLJ was handed a bad bit, yes. Some of my biggest gripes against TLJ, though, come from its internal writing. So, even assuming Star Wars wasn't a phenomenon with a rich universe and backstory to pull from, and even assuming it had a set-up film that was way better, it still bites.
The writing is bad. It sets stuff up that it fails to pay off. It has cul-de-sac plotlines that scoot off to nowhere. It's inconsistent in its messaging. Easiest examples: don't be a flyboy, Poe! (it's fine when Holdo does it, though...); don't sacrifice yourself, Finn! (Rose can, though).
The editing is bad. It takes six seconds for the Empire to blow up 99% of the bombers, then with a greater fighter:bomber ratio than ever, it takes them three minutes to take out the last one, which now explodes slowly enough to drop the payload. Explodes slowly? Contrasted to the Death Star dogfight in Episode IV, it's really shown up.
And, yeah, it also wallops the lore and characters. Mark Hamill kept saying he thinks of Luke as "Jake Skywalker" in that one.
I'll thank you, too; this conversation has been a good exchange of perspectives on the franchise, and I thank you for it.
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