MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015) Discussion > The Social Justice Dates It.

The Social Justice Dates It.

posted 6 years ago by Painbow (156)
47 replies | jump to latest

Watched it again the other day and the scene where Rey TWICE tells Finn not to hold her hand really felt clunky and crow-barred in. For the sake of modern audiences, it might be a great moment of feminism and equality but in the context of the film, why would she take such offence at him trying to help her? Either the societies they live in are equal (and no-one is a feminist) in which case her taking offence makes no sense. Or they have the same inequalities in their societies regarding gender that we do but if that's the case then why is Finn not aware of this? Why is he trying to help what he believes is a vulnerable woman?

Anyway, that scene really stood out, felt totally contrived and pulled me out of the movie.

Had they truly wanted to make a feminist point (without massively dating the movie) then they should have simply made Rey grab Finn's hand. Job done.

When people watch this film in 30 years' time, they'll wonder why it had such a forced scene.

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

Wow! You are really over thinking this. It was meant to be cute and funny, and in 30 years ... it will still be cute and funny.

[–] janelsenor (2044) 6 years ago

Like the other movies have nothing that dates them. Lol.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

You mean the original trilogy?

Well, certainly nothing culturally significant to the era dates them, I'd say. They don't dwell on contemporary social trends for example.

[–] FilmBuff (7237) 6 years ago

Neither does The Force Awakens. You are assigning it motives and narratives it doesn't have.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

Point to a similar (I don't need you to hold my hand) scene from an equivalent '70s or '80s (even '90s) action/adventure film (where this trope is regularly seen) and I will happily believe you.

I look forward to seeing the list you present.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 6 years ago

It will never be cute and funny it will always been obnoxious and annoying. In 30 years that scene is going to be looked at the same way as Jar Jar stepping in alien poop

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

That is an incredibly bizarre comparison.

It was sweet that he wanted to help her. He was trying to be nice, but he's completely out of touch with reality. She isn't used to anyone helping her and didn't really know how to react. It actually showed the audience quite a bit about how sheltered both characters were and how much they had to learn about the world around them.

So, I suppose if you really want to compare those two scenes, in the Phantom Menace we were shown an example of Jar Jar being clumsy and unobservant. At least he's consistent.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 6 years ago

We get it, female characters can be strong, Star Wars is a good medium to show strong female characters, that's why we had Leia and Padme.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Padme sucked! A woman with that kind of status falling for some brat was a joke.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Padme was better than frickin' Rey, that's for sure!

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Nope. Not even close.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

Um no, it was demonstrably meant to make a point about gender in movies. The big handsome man grabs the hand of the beautiful (yet vulnerable) woman and saves her. They were attempting to subvert this trope. Good for them.

But it was very badly done is my point.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

Misogyny! White privilege! Heteronormativity! Non-binary! Racism! Hierarchies of oppression!

Excellent.

Now that you've got that out of your system... what does that have to do with my above comment?

Also, why the insults? Are you a young boy? Did you have a lovely Christmas?

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

You have to REALLY want to see it that way. Otherwise it's just so obvious that Finn THINKS he's saving her, when she's the one saving him, and that's part of what makes it funny.

Sheesh, lighten up!

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

I'm very light already, thanks.

This a discussion forum where people have discussions. It shouldn't be this taxing for you to the extent that you get upset. Try to calm down.

If Finn believes she is vulnerable then that would imply that he is unaware that she is an equal (would he have offered to take the hand of a man in the same way?). The point being that the universe this takes place in is one in which women are clearly seen as equals. So for Finn to behave this way is entirely for the benefit of the movie-watching audience and not due to the internal logic of the world or the characters.

This is what dates it. It is a thing done for the audience at home in 2015 to make a point about movie tropes. This has two consequence: 1) it risks taking the viewer out of the narrative (certainly did for me) and 2) it will instantly look strange to future audiences. They will wonder why it's there (also taking them out of the narrative).

To more effectively undermine sexist movie tropes, they should have had Rey be the one who grabs Finn's hand and had Finn totally accepts this with no problem. Hey presto, you've made your point but you've done it without using a sledgehammer.

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

“... that you get upset. Try to calm down.” Right, that’s not at all condescending. Do you tell everyone who disagrees with you to calm down?

“If Finn believes she is vulnerable then that would imply that he is unaware that she is an equal.” Finn is unaware of lots of things, and that’s part of the point. He’s never really been in society before. He thinks Han’s ship is the First Order because it’s big and because he’s always been taught that no one can defeat the First Order.

“This is what dates it. It is a thing done for the audience at home in 2015 to make a point about movie tropes.” Or it’s just meant to be funny, and you’re reading too much into it. Sorry you felt “taken out of the narrative.” I enjoyed it.

“To more effectively undermine sexist movie tropes ... “ You are really reaching here. It was a funny scene. You simply didn’t and still do not get the joke. Your loss.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

"Do you tell everyone who disagrees with you to calm down?"

No, only cretins who tell me to lighten up when I disagree with them. Was that joke not obvious to you?

You need to try getting less upset. You'll do yourself a mischief. It's only a film, mate. Try to calm down.

Meanwhile, your points... all miss the point. I suggest a more nuanced look at art in general. Not everything can be designed for the simplest of minds and be 'a funny joke.' Sometimes there is a purpose to the joke (beyond it's ability to be amusing) and sometimes you need to analyse what is being explored and subverted. It's something grown-ups do.

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

I think it's pretty obvious that the point of the scene is simply to show that Finn is sheltered and clueless, but you disagree. I enjoy reading other opinions and thoughts. What I don't have time for are insults.

You called me a cretin, simple minded and not a grown-up (I'm assuming, since you said what you were doing was "something grown-ups do."

Yeah, I won't waste any more of my time on someone who's just going to insult me.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Dude you are wasting your time. These people will never get it.

0% of what happens with rey in this film can be criticised according to these corrupted souls.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I'd be shocked if anyone is watching the Disney Star Wars movies in thirty years.

[–] Thrillhouse (1509) 6 years ago

Cute and funny seems out of tone in a space opera. You know why they didn't do Rey grabbing Finn's hand. It's not like they hadn't thought of it since that's what better movies have been doing for decades. It's because they don't actually care about "equality". They care about punishing their enemies. This is a religious crusade.

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

"This is a religious crusade." Really? What religion are they promoting?

Why can't a space opera have funny moments. No one seemed to mind when it was Han Solo in the original trilogy, but Finn and Rey being funny is "out of tone."

[–] Martoto (5040) 6 years ago

" You are really over thinking this. "

Massively.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

It only stands out because you like to complain about it.

It won't stand out "in 30 years time" and will just be a "blink and you'll almost miss it" two seconds worth of footage.

No one is going to be saying "GOD I HATE THAT TWO SECONDS WITH THAT LINE, because I fondly remember those days in the latter half of the 2010s when a bunch of random annoying people on the internet would complain about everything that wasn't reflective of white-male-dominance."

What will be dated (and likely forgotten) in the future will be YOUR view that you've needlessly vomited into this topic.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

Are you alright? Do you need me to call someone? You seem (inexplicably) upset.

The scene actually takes up about two minutes as it occurs twice as a kind of bookend to the whole thing.

And what do you mean I like to complain about it? Have I complained about this scene before?

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

And when I said 'these people' in an earlier reply ... most of them are actually just frog and their sock accounts.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Women never need a man's help!

So I've been told.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 6 years ago

I don't like preachy movies (of any stripe) but I don't think OP is correct. This current wave of feminism backlash overreacts to so much that it creates an stinky fog that obscures whatever few valid complaints they have. Is there a lot of tedious sjw content in tv and film nowadays? Yes. Is Rey denying the hand emblematic of this? Nope. Rey is independent. That is established. The scene was accurate character behavior to show cute interaction. It was endearing. There was no "ism"

[–] Ziggy (1799) 6 years ago

Thank you!

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

The scene needs to acknowledge more than characters. It needs to acknowledge the world the characters exist in.

Rey is independent. Fine. But are all women independent? Are they viewed as equals? If yes then why would Finn ever take her hand in the first place let alone TWICE?

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 6 years ago

Finn likes Rey (at least until Rian got ahold of this) so he is trying to establish touching behavior as males do. He was raised as a Storm Trooper so one cannot expect him to be very smooth nor dialed into intergalactic norms.

I might agree with you on more than a few things regarding TLJ but your complaints about this are a stretch. You have a bag full of pyrite here.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

How does he like her? They've literally just met.

Additionally, if his 'touching behaviour' as you call it, is based on physical attraction then isn't that significantly more sexist? He isn't helping her escape because he's a good guy, but because he wants a reward.

As I've said earlier in this thread, if the scene isn't specifically designed as an antidote to the 'man saves woman by pulling her away' trope then name another (pre 2005) action film that has a similar scene.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 6 years ago

I don't care if it is sexist. Finn liked Rey. How do you not see that? He stammers through questioning her if she has "a boyfriend, a cute boyfriend?" So we see him trying to be gallant with the hand thing but it isn't helping him because she has been a loner survivor for so long that she doesn't recognize courting behavior.

The long game of this was obviously supposed to be the gradual softening of Rey's demeanor and the two of them bonding. But Rian went and subverted our expectations and the whole enchilada was abandoned in favor of everyone's favorite new character, Rose.

I do have a problem with Rey's complete lack of any effort to use the Force among other talents unearned. But I don't put the hand-holding-crisis in that same bucket.

So basically, Rey was not the traditional damsel needing rescue which is fine. Finn tried to play that card but misread the girl he had his eye on. He was awkwardly trying to be the macho hero. Pretending to be something he wasn't. The very essence of the Finn character.

[–] sut6432 (2908) 6 years ago

Wait...being physically attracted to women is sexist now???

My God I'm glad I'm married and don't have to deal with all this shit, what's "offensive" and "sexist" and what's not, lol. My hats go off to all the guys who have to try and date women these days.

This little scene actually did made me dislike Rey a lot. He was just trying to help her, and she lashed out like he was trying to attack her or something. She was more pissed at Finn than the people trying to kill her.

It was ridiculous, though yes, a nice little feminist "I don't need no man" moment, but it was enough to annoy me and make me not give a crap about Rey. Rey the rest of the movie made it even worse, with the "she can do it all" stuff. You notice in the same sequence that she grabbed Finn's hand and it was perfectly fine? He didn't bitch like a two year old, and she didn't seem to care that it pissed her off when he did the same thing to her.

I'm sure little girls loved it, and that's what matters ultimately, but damn, I found her very unlikable, and in TLJ I'm still pissed that she actually knocked down Luke Skywalker in a light saber fight. No fucking way. Sorry.

[–] TandyMan (11109) 6 years ago

I don't think the "scruffy looking" scene from the original has aged well either. All men are scruffy looking now. It's the new look.

[–] spurtle467 (1547) 6 years ago

Never found it particularly funny or cute, but didn't find it to be an overtly feminist moment. Just a male character acting protective over a girl character when the girl feels there's no need for it.

Wasn't it suggested that Finn kind of liked Rey, when he asked if she had a boyfriend earlier on? So you could say there's as much an element of him wanting to hold her hand in a romantic way.

Anyway, there were worse things that bothered me in this, and in comparison to TLJ, it's like a drop in the ocean.

[–] FilmBuff (7237) 6 years ago

The other 99.9% of us who watched that scene saw it as a humorous moment without any political or "social justice" overtones. You were looking for anything that might offend your delicate political sensibilities and honed in on that scene and ended up making it out to be something it isn't.

When people watch the film in 30 years they'll laugh at the humor of the scene, just as audiences did when it was new.

[–] Painbow (156) 6 years ago

Can you give me the phone number of the other 99.9% so I can check with them?

Also, my delicate political sensibilities appear to have... massively triggered you. Is that a form of irony? I'll ask the 99.9% when I speak to them.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

And you are 100% correct. The scene was deliberately intended to convey the point you state ... it is heavy handed to say the least.

These are the same people that think it's "only logical" that she is instantly a jedi light-saber master later in the film because she was able to escape a few drunkards with the help of a stick in this very scene.