MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015) Discussion > Luke in the OT

Luke in the OT

posted 7 years ago by AP (5295)
14 replies | jump to latest

A lot of the Rey fanboys defend her by saying her progressive is close enough to Luke's, so let's see how he developed over the course of the entire trilogy.

A NEW HOPE
- The first time we see him in action, he gets his ass kicked by a random Sandperson and needs Obi-Wan to save him.

- The second time we see him in action, he's getting pushed around by random criminals in the cantina and needs Obi-Wan to save him.

- Tries to rescue Princess Leia (alongside Chewie and Han), only partially succeeds, then he needs her to save HIM.

- Immediately gets strangled by a monster in the trash compactor and needs Han and Leia to save him.

- Almost gets squashed by the trash compactor and needs R2-D2 and C-3P0 to save him.

- Needs Obi-Wan to sacrifice himself so he and the others can escape.

- Goes along with an entire platoon of X-wing pilots to destroy the Deathstar. It should be noted that he hasn't really fought alone yet and has been taking orders almost entirely from other characters.

- Is helpless when Darth Vader flies up behind him, ready to blow him up and needs Han Solo and Chewie to save him. This means he never beat the main villain of the movie.

- Blew up the Deathstar with coaching from Obi-Wan's ghost. While he finally used the Force to aim the shot, it was previously stated that a normal pilot could potentially make the shot if they're good enough (and further proven by one pilot nearly making it before Luke got there).

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK:
- Gets beaten and nearly killed by a wompa about twenty seconds after he appears onscreen for the first time.

- Escapes by using the Force to BARELY move a lightsaber two feet off the ground (about 3 years after the Deathstar explosion, implying that he's been getting stronger over a decent period of time), but then wanders out in the cold and almost dies and needs to be saved by Han who will later remind him that he's saved his life twice now.

- Goes into battle against the Empire and his B-Wing is shot down during the initial fight and his co-pilot is killed. While he does take down one walker, it's mostly due to his piloting skills. He uses a grappling hook to pull himself up to another walker and only uses his lightsaber to cut a hole inside it so he can toss a grenade into it. Again, no real Force use.

- Escapes Hoth and spends most of the movie getting training form Yoda. The timeline of the movie is unclear but remember, the Falcon had a busted hyperdrive, so it likely took them a very long time to get to Cloud City and get in trouble. It could have been days and it could have been years.

- Goes off to fight Darth Vader, gets beaten like a child, loses his hand, cries about it, then needs to be saved by his friends. He accomplishes very little as he's still going through the hero's journey.

RETURN OF THE JEDI:
- The start of this movie finally shows he can Force choke people as well as do mind tricks. This movie takes place about six years after A New Hope, meaning it took that long for him to figure this move out.

- Still struggles with giant monsters and Jabba's henchmen as he isn't invincible.

- Goes off to learn about his father and sister form Yoda and Obi-Wan, then goes off on a mission against the second Deathstar where he turns himself over to Darth Vader.

- Fights Vader and barely manages to win in a very long battle which included a lot of hit-and-run tactics.

- Nearly killed by Palpatine and needs Vader to come in and save him.

So is Luke still a Mary Sue?

[–] AckbartheHutt (1370) 7 years ago

Just saw this, good write up about Anakin and Luke. I have been saying most of these things since TFA was released. Its nice to know that someone else thinks like me.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

I think more and more people are cluing in that the sequel trilogy is poorly written and has shallow characters. When the prequels first came out, a lot of Star Wars fans defended them, including me, actually. I was in high school/university and was just excited there were new Star Wars movies. Eventually we all slowly realized the prequels were terrible. In much the same way, fans of the sequels are slowly realizing these movies are terrible.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

So Rey is only a Mary Sue if she progresses faster than the men.

Luke is apparently not a Marty Stu even though his progression as a Jedi was miraculous even compared to Anakin and even though he got almost no training (and no lightsaber fight training at all).

See? Men can break the fictional rules of made-up magic and become supermen, while women have to stay constrained by the standards the men have set.

Good job with that! Now factor in that the Force is constantly being expanded and added to and altered, and how it's a magical power that allows its user to overcome limitations, and you'll see how silly this all is.

Or you could just keep proving that you are threatened by a vagina.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

Point to anywhere in my OP where I brought up gender. Rey fanboys needs to learn to let go of that old chestnut.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

"Point to anywhere in my OP where I brought up gender."

Ummm... Criticizing a FEMALE lead in a Star Wars movie because she exceeds some standard that you've declared, and your entire argument is anchored by showing how you think she's better than a MAN, which YOU DO NOT ALLOW.

Are you really this blind? Oh yes, you never said "female" so you're not being sexist about fantasy characters. LOL, wow, you really expected that to go over?

Luke can force-pull in Empire Strikes Back without having ever seen it, without knowing it exists, and without training. Luke can predict the shots from a floating taser ball and block them while blindfolded simply at the urging of Kenobi even though Luke had never heard of the Force before meeting Ben. Luke can eventually defeat THE MOST POWERFUL SITH who has been using a lightsaber longer than Luke has been alive EVEN THOUGH Luke was never trained in how to fight with a lightsaber and has never fought with a staff or anything. Luke can even Force-target photon torpedoes better than a targeting computer, with zero training.

But Rey isn't allowed to force-pull even when she experiences someone else doing it in front of her. She isn't allowed to do a mind trick or mine someone's mind (they're basically the same thing just two different directions) even when she experiences someone else doing it TO her.

And of course: Rey, having lived on her own on Jakku for 14 years of her life and knowing how to fight, isn't allowed to fend for herself better than a farm boy who has lived a comfortable life with his aunt and uncle.

I didn't even read your entire OP, so you probably dismissed her piloting skills too, even though she says she's a pilot and Luke said he's a pilot. Maybe you pick apart seeing her fly the Falcon even though the guy she works for, Unkar Plutt, is the one who has owned the Falcon for years and she might be highly familiar with it.

Again it's a fantasy story with magical powers. SO SERIOUS!

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

More strawmaning. Bravo.

[–] Oscar (114) 7 years ago

Luke can force-pull in Empire Strikes Back without having ever seen it, without knowing it exists, and without training. [/quote]

He doesn't need to know about force-pull, he needs to know that the lightsaber needs to be in his hand, and is beyond his reach. It doesn't take a great leap on imagination to want the sword to be pulled toward him.

[quote]Luke can predict the shots from a floating taser ball and block them while blindfolded simply at the urging of Kenobi even though Luke had never heard of the Force before meeting Ben.[/quote]

Force powers are apparently inheritable, so he doesn't need to know about it to have the prediction powers. If someone has a genetic illness, it will affect them whether or not they know about it.

[quote]Luke can eventually defeat THE MOST POWERFUL SITH who has been using a lightsaber longer than Luke has been alive EVEN THOUGH Luke was never trained in how to fight with a lightsaber and has never fought with a staff or anything.

Vader was barely trying, and Luke only got the better of him when he snapped, after Vader taunted him about Leia.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Luke is a wish-fulfillment character, a well done one, but he's still the kid from the Modestoine who saves the galaxy and develops super powers and escapes from the farm and who only comes back to destroy the local bully. He's like James Bond, a fantasy so common that it's nearly universal, and therefore popular. Everyone wants to imagine that they're the kid who becomes a superhero, or the badass who's so badass he has a license to kill!

And if you want to reduce that to "Luke is a Mary Sue" then fine, but that's not actually what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that the hater fanboys keep niggling over details of the writing, and totally ignore emotional responses to character and entertainment, as if the details of the story were all that's behind their continuing ragging on TFA and Rey. They refuse to admit that they emotionally respond to Luke in a way that they don't respond to Rey, and the fact is if you look at Luke with an unkind clinical eye then you can see the resemblance between his story and the standard Mary-Sue tropes. That's how you're looking at Rey and not at Luke, and you don't have the generosity of spirit to say "Fine, let other people enjoy Rey the wish-fulfillment character the way I've always enjoyed Luke the wish-fulfillment character", and you waste your breath trying to prove that your emotional responses to the various characters are somehow logical. They're not, and everyone elsecan see that.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

For me, I am more emotionally invested in a character who struggles and has obstacles to overcome. That makes the character arc more full filling. In the OT, Luke struggled for three movies, which was the point of this thread. We celebrated seeing him beat Vader because he spent three movies turning into a hero.

That said, I enjoyed Rey in Last Jedi as I felt like she had a proper arc. She went from demanding guidance, to refusing guidance, to finding the truth after failing. It worked very fell as far as I'm concerned.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

"For me, I am more emotionally invested in a character who struggles and has obstacles to overcome."

I've seen far too many people claim Rey is "perfect" in Force Awakens, then they completely dismiss the easily-compiled list of character defects and mistakes she makes. Actually, I will post the list and then they run away because they are not interested in actual discussion.

I'm sure you were the same. Again right here you admit that this thread criticizing her is SOLELY because she fails to struggle in the same ways as a male character Luke (you literally admit it here).

But again, this argument is dependent upon claiming that she never struggles and has no obstacles, which is one of those "the sky is pink" arguments where the color blue is ignored and thus suddenly the argument is declared a success.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

Now, this is more of an intelligent argument, so I'll respond.

What mistakes did she make in Force Awakens? The only time she seemed to be in trouble was when Kylo snuck up behind her and captured her and later when he Force-slammed her against a tree. In both situations, she got out of trouble through her own means. Also in both of these cases, she spontaneously gained powers or skills she never previously had, which is bad writing.

She never needed to be saved by anyone nor needed anyone's help unlike other heroes. I bring up Luke's many failings and struggles because people often try to claim Rey's progression is similar to Luke's, but it isn't. In their first appearances, Luke spent most of his time being saved whereas Rey never needed it.

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2at2Wo9sU

If Rey were Luke in A New Hope

[–] Bubbathegut (18242) 7 years ago

haha thats genius!

[–] AP (5295) 7 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xem4yyx6wok

This vid was on my feed, so I thought I'd share. He brings up a lot of the points I did, but mentions a lot of things I overlooked.