This could have worked with no problems if... - Project Almanac (2015) Discussion

[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

If time is a flow and free will exists (the universe is not deterministic), it would be impossible to travel to a place that had not yet happened. In other words, they can only travel to the future if they were in the past.

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** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] howard_w13 9 years ago

In other words, they can only travel to the future if they were in the past.


 Huh....wha....?!?!? 

Isn't the present that which we're now in concurrently the past relative to those in the future?
Within the (loosely) scientific guidelines established in the film; when or how was it established that they COULDN'T travel to the future? David probably could have figured it out given enough time....

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The movie has a plot hole?!?
EVERY FRIGGIN' MOVIE HAS A FRIGGIN' PLOT HOLE!!!!!

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

If it is not a deterministic universe, there is no written future beyond the present and so they cannot in principle jump there. So to jump to a future they have to let it live out first. And this is what they do when they e.g. win the lottery.

However, the movie does not spell out to us if their universe is deterministic or dynamic. Or perhaps it does. We see him at his birthday party and even holding this specific keychain and having this specific spilled spot on his shirt and those facts actually hints quite strongly that they are in a deterministic predefined universe with no free will. And if so, yes they could in principle jump to any point in the total timeline irregardless of when they invent the time device, as all is then already destined to be, whatever that may be.

But if it is deterministic, then how can they change anything? Well perhaps they don't and really just jump between parallel universes with slightly changed chain of events that then fits with their own "changes"... This way his changes in "his" past makes sense as well as the possibility to jump ahead to the unknown future....

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** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] Jazz_thieve 9 years ago

Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about and seem to have no concept of the relativistic nature of time itself and Einstein's theory of special relativity that says that time slows down or speeds up depending on how fast you move relative to something else. In other words, you travel fast and time slows down (from a relative point of view) and in essence you're traveling into the future.

Would love to hear your reply to see how far I can push your stupidity with this.

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

In Einstein's mind we do live in a deterministic universe though. And you are absolutely right; when we speed we slow our time and so the rest of the world flies by quicker, which effectively means we can travel to the future. However, practically it is because our own time is slowed relative to everyone else... in other words, the future needs to happen first and this is what I tried to say.

The way I see it is that they have a device which makes it possible to jump around in the existing timeline, not necessarily by the means of Einstein but by the means of Sci-fi. And so they can jump to the past. However not the unwritten future, until it is lived out, that is.... actually, kind of how special theory of relativity also does it.

Would love to hear your reply to see how far I can push your stupidity with this.

What exactly are you opposing in my reply? I agree in everything you write. I gather I am not very articulate and I even have a hard time understanding my own dripple. Though, I fail to see where I am stupid (pun intended)? Perhaps you care to elaborate with quotes or further explanations?

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** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] Kent_Kainer 9 years ago

They travelled to the past.
From the past the present is the future.
Since their actions had consequences it'd be no difference from traveling to the future. While they skipped the time The rest lived a life and the travellers faced a future/present they didn't know.

Travelling further is more like a speed up of time.
Wasn't it Einstein who figured out that as faster you travel as slower the time? Relatively seen.
Fast traveling ppl would be in the future when they stop. From their point of view.

The reaction of the teacher was different first time they travelled to the past.

But isn't it current scientific opinion that traveling to the past is impossible anyway? You can only go forward, not backward.

---
Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.
Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

When discussing time travel, two different (and none compatible) worldviews needs to me considered. And one has to be chosen. Are we living in a deterministic universe, or a none-deterministic universe (dynamic universe)? Because depending on which view we think we are in, depends on how we may answer your questions... as each worldview will answer them differently.

Einstein gave birth to the concept of “Special Relativistic Time Dilation” or sometimes called “Relative Velocity Time Dilation" in his Special Theory of Relativity back in 1905. Briefly said, it shows how relative movement affect time. When one move the time will tick at a slower rate than if one would stand relatively still. So you are absolutely correct. This means effectively that by simply taking a stroll in the park your time will tick a little slower than if you decide to just enjoy a peach on the porch.

If one would travel at the speed of light (which is impossible for many other reasons) the time rate will at this speed completely stop and so the experience of the traveller is that he can travel to any future instantly; billions of years may pass for us, but for him it will be but an instant. But the future still has to unfold for him to be able to stop there... Einstein’s equations can take us even further...the mathematically consequence of his special theory of relativity is that time will slow so much down that if one would break the speed limit of the universe and travel faster than the speed of light, time will slow so much down that it will become negative. In other words, the mathematical consequence of special time dilation permits time travel to the future and also to the past. Now it is important to understand that Einstein too says it is impossible to break the speed limit of light, but mathematically (not theoretically) the consequences on time can be calculated.

However, Einstein too believes in a deterministic universe, which in a popular sentence says that everything is determined or fixed, and so no free will and so no possibility to change the past.

Our heroes in the movie are of a different believe.... I think.

To me though, it is not so clear if the movie itself actually agrees with our heroes or with Einstein. Or perhaps it does. We see him at his birthday party and even holding this specific keychain and having this specific spilled spot on his shirt and those facts actually hints quite strongly that they are in a deterministic predefined universe with no free will. And if so, yes they could in principle jump to any point in the total timeline regardless of when they invent the time device, as all is then already destined to be, whatever that may be.

But if it is deterministic, then how can they change anything? Well perhaps they don't and really just jump between parallel universes with slightly changed chain of events that then fits with their own "changes"... This way his changes in "his" past makes sense as well as the possibility to jump ahead to the unknown future.... or perhaps what we see is determined actions. They were suppose to find the device that way, they were so suppose to fuxk it up in that way etc... we simply see it unfold exactly as the universe intended.

So in a nutshell. If the universe is deterministic one could in theory jump to any point of time in the history of our universe. As each point in the chain of time is effectively happening simultaneously. It is only an illusion that they seem to happen chronologically (more or less Einstein’s pov). If the universe is none-deterministic, then they can only jump to a point in time that has already unfolded as the future is yet to be determined.... so a none-deterministic universe does not allow future travel, beside waiting it out in like a cryofreezer or in a spaceship travelling at e.g. light speed, as explained above.

Einstein’s way of travelling to the future is to wait for the future to happen and so his theory of relativity (both his special and general) abides to the rules of a non- deterministic universe. Or in other words, his two famous theories cannot prove or disprove that we are in a deterministic universe or not... no one can..... yet.

So really the question is what worldview does the movie follow?

* If deterministic, they have no free will but can travel to any point as it has already been determined.
* If none-deterministic, they can only travel to a "future" that has been lived.

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] raytech-790-178703 9 years ago

You can travel into the future by going closer to the speed of light or be near a really massive object. GPS proves this.

It's going into the past that's the problem.

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

Truthfully, we all travel to the future minute by minute. Just by being :-)

It's going into the past that's the problem.

Mathematically we know how though.

Einstein gave birth to the concept of “Special Relativistic Time Dilation” or sometimes called “Relative Velocity Time Dilation" in his Special Theory of Relativity back in 1905. And as you say said, it shows how relative movement affect time. When one move the time will tick at a slower rate than if one would stand relatively still. This means effectively that by simply taking a stroll in the park your time will tick a little slower than if you decide to just enjoy a peach on the porch. (that gravity also effect the relative time rate was introduced in his general theory 10 years later)

If one would travel at the speed of light (which is impossible for many other reasons) the time rate will at this speed completely stop and so the experience of the traveller is that he can travel to any future instantly; billions of years may pass for us, but for him it will be but an instant. But the future still has to unfold for him to be able to stop there... Einstein’s equations can take us even further...the mathematically consequence of his special theory of relativity is that time will slow so much down that if one would break the speed limit of the universe and travel faster than the speed of light, time will slow so much down that it will become negative. In other words, the mathematical consequence of special time dilation permits time travel to the future and also to the past. Now it is important to understand that Einstein too says it is impossible to break the speed limit of light, but mathematically (not theoretically) the consequences on time can be calculated.

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] carl_johnson-1 9 years ago

So you use a time machine to jump forward a day to get the Lottery numbers, then jump back to play them? Or you could just wait it out until tomorrow to get the Lottery numbers, and then jump back a day to play them. I'm not seeing the difference.

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

I suppose one of them takes a longer time (in real time) to do. So to check lottery numbers in one day there would be little difference, but to check when we would get hover boards would be tedious as hell.... in fact, this is what I am doing right now.

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] ze_goose 9 years ago

....when we would get hover boards....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NXOwCNr7GI

Your hamster is welcome.

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[–] jameswgarrity 9 years ago

Unfortunately all these time travel movies forget one thing. One obvious thing.

The earth rotates. It also is in orbit of the Sun.

Traveling in time at a "fixed point" would pretty much plunk you in outer space. Any time machine would also have to transport you in space as well. And lets be serious, if they could figure the space part out, we'd be colonizing planets.

Why can't they come up with a movie like that? (See Stephen King's short "The Jaunt")

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[–] ze_goose 9 years ago

*spoilers*

You brought up an interesting point..some clarification would be appreciated though:

....all these time travel movies....

All time travel films don't use the same concept...

....if they could figure the space part out, we'd be....

Could you elaborate on who/what are 'they'/'we'?

Moving on - in the context of this movie, they were, more often than not, shown 'jumping' to the same location at which they started the 'jump'. When I say 'location', I mean like lat/long on earth.

You might recall that for a while, they were only able to travel up until the point that the device was first activated, so this is a viable 'reference point'; to put it in mathematical terms - the 'origin', or 'zero', if you will. For want of a better analogy, let's assume that this 'origin' is permanently stored in the device's 'memory'. We can see that the device somehow calculates very precisely the positive space-time displacement based on where the original device exists, and/or was initially activated in space-time.

Now let's push it a level further - David figures out, and/or makes the device figure out how to calculate negative space-time displacement, so they are even able to jump prior to initial activation of the device.

I'll try to address the point you raised (finally, lol) - I hypothesize that 'colonizing planets', to (crudely) paraphrase you, is not precluded, but that the 'cost'/energy involved in said travel might be higher than traveling in space-time to a previous time with the same lat/long.

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[–] emailaddress-600-852845 9 years ago

It cannot precisely calculate it because there is no point of reference. Such a machine cannot know where it is. You mention Lat/Long but that would only be valid if the universe wasn't expanding. Not that this really matters as there were very basic fundamental things wrong with the science as simple as using the batteries, let alone theories of time travel.

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[–] ze_goose 9 years ago

*spoilers!*

It cannot precisely calculate it because there is no point of reference. Such a machine cannot know where it is.

I mentioned in my previous post that - "You might recall that for a while, they were only able to travel up until the point that the device was first activated, so this is a viable 'reference point'; to put it in mathematical terms - the 'origin', or 'zero', if you will."

Why would this not satisfy the criterion of a 'point of reference' in spacetime coordinates?

You mention Lat/Long but that would only be valid if the universe wasn't expanding.

Ah, but I said Lat/long on earth, not in spacetime coordinates. 😃

Not that this really matters as there were very basic fundamental things wrong with the science as simple as using the batteries...

Yes, I tend to agree; there were things 'incorrect'/inexplicable with the science in the film.

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

The Astronomical Coordinate Systems (there are many different, all forms of a Cartesian coordinate system) actually considers this. So spacetime coordinates to earth geographical coordinates simply has earth time as one of its variables.

So imo, the fixed point you mention, is referring to time - and the space dimension are held as interlocked variables to the "when" - not the other way around.

I do not think this constitutes a hole in the concept.

In fact; without time as an equational variable, any locational coordinate is pointless, even on earth...

Where do we meet? Is worthless if no time dimension is used.
When do we meet? Is worthless if no location is informed.

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] ze_goose 9 years ago

*spoilers*

To quote James:

Traveling in time at a "fixed point" would pretty much plunk you in outer space.

Not to argue against what you said, but I think that he raised a valid point. Note that he said "at a fixed point" (meaning 'physical position') and not "to a fixed point" (meaning 'time'). The second part of the sentence is meaningless if this is taken out of context 😁

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

But this distinction is nonsense when discussing space, as time is as much a dimension as x and y. And in reality also even here on earth....

It is a valid point indeed, but it only underlines why the distinction is nonsense as no coordinate would work without it.

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[–] kiya21260 9 years ago

time is as much a dimension as x and y

Did I accidentally start reading HG Well's Time Machine again?

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[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

THE TIME TRAVELLER (for so it will be convenient to speak of him) was expounding a recondite matter to us. His grey eyes shone and twinkled, and his usually pale face was flushed and animated. The fire burned brightly, and the soft radiance of the incandescent lights in the lilies of silver caught the bubbles that flashed and passed in our glasses....

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] carl_johnson-1 9 years ago

Considering they used a smart phone to code in the destination times, I suppose destination location could also have been a parameter (it does have GPS). It explains Lollapalooza at least.

In other words, "There's an app for that."

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[–] jamesjkelly1982 9 years ago

The issue with that is the main character wouldn't be able to make amends for his mistakes and missed opportunity with the girl he likes and he would not be able to save his dad which to be honest must have been his real motivation

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[–] emailaddress-600-852845 9 years ago

Then someone could just suggest that by changing the future you still introduce alternate ripple effects that you can't fix because you're only traveling into the future.

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[–] TheBeardedWonder 9 years ago

Yeah the ripple would just begin at whatever point in the future that you changed things, or at whatever point you won the lottery back in the present (because you didn't the first time).

Either way there's still ripple effects for your actions, they're just not in the past per se...

'Get yourself a real dog. Any dog under 50 lbs is a cat and cats are pointless' - Ron Swanson

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