MovieChat Forums > Fruitvale Station (2013) Discussion > I find it despicable

I find it despicable

posted 11 years ago by pdbrat
27 replies | jump to latest

I find it despicable that his father is suing for compensation for his death. His mom and daughter won a settlement as they should have, but his father is sentenced to life and should be instead paying the mom for not being there as a father. Maybe Oscar would be alive today.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kuntext 11 years ago

pdbrat,
I don't think the cop should have been sentenced to any time at all. (Surgeons kill people by accident and they don't get jailed for it. Nor, should they.) I think he should have gone into therapy and if he was cleared to return to the force, put into police skills' re-training, . The horror that poor cop must feel. It's sad.

I would also send a bill to the police force for therapy for both the cop's kids and for Oscar's daughter.

Oscar's father is acting in a predictable way. His sense of entitlement infected poor Oscar, which ultimately, led to Oscar's death. A man such as that - the most loving thing he could do as a father is to disappear.

How many men were detained on that platform? How many got killed?

What was the difference?

Oscar felt entitled to disobey authority. He was put down and he got back up - demanding special attention - right away. He had no respect for the safety of others. To him, the police weren't there for society. They were there for him to school them on how to do their jobs - during a crisis! Wow!

He decided he was going to confront the police as if he were their equal. Detainees are not equal - they are under the supervision and control of the authorities. The other men there acted accordingly, and hey, guess who survived?

Oscar died of his own disregard for the rights of others, his refusal to respect authority and his stupidity in not being responsible for his own safety when he found himself surrounded by armed police on high alert. Duh!

I know it was an accident. The final, lethal mistake was pulling the gun and not the taser. BUT, from the moment Oscar was commanded to sit down - WITH THE OTHERS, he had a responsibility as a citizen to "stay put" until he was given permission to move. He had a responsibility to support the police in their attempt to restore order. He had a responsibility to take care of himself.

He was full of "his rights" and completely devoid of responsibility.

The actual shooting killed him. He had multiple opportunities to protect himself from being in a position in which that was possible. Oscar is responsible for making the police intensify their control of him. That is what they are paid to do. If Oscar had sat still, he'd be alive. If Oscar had waited for attention, he'd be alive. If Oscar had stopped kicking and submitted to being handcuffed, he'd be alive. If Oscar had submitted to authority, he would have lived. If Oscar had done what everyone else did, he would have lived.

So, when I read the threads here, I see a lot of polarization. People seem to think that if you empathize with the cop, that means you don't care that Oscar died. I do both. I think it's a tragic accident - one in which Oscar had the power to avoid. The cop made a mistake, which he would not have made, had Oscar behaved as a law-abiding citizen.

There's a difference between blame and holding others accountable. There is a cause and effect relationship between Oscar's choices and Oscar's death. It's worrisome to me, that some people see him as a victim. I don't think the term fits this situation. More like... casualty.

I repeat... how many men were detained on that platform? How many survived?

Exactly.

Debate my points. Challenge my perspective. Prove me wrong. Only, do it with a smile.

[–] janus_keinaerts 11 years ago

You're number one! You're number one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

whoo
pee for authority

[–] deezmofoz 11 years ago

I don't think the cop should have been sentenced to any time at all. (Surgeons kill people by accident and they don't get jailed for it. Nor, should they.)

terrible analogy.
a surgeon's priority (& any medical professional) is to preserve the life of the patient. a cop has the leeway to use lethal force on the job. going against good judgment and/or unnecessarily enacting lethal force on someone is and should be a jailable offense for abusing authority.

I think it's a tragic accident - one in which Oscar had the power to avoid. The cop made a mistake, which he would not have made, had Oscar behaved as a law-abiding citizen.

except that there was no reason for a taser to even have been pulled at the moment in the first place. was oscar acting out in the beginning? yes. & you might have a point if he was shot when he & his friends were first pulled off the train.

but the whole problem with your post is that oscar was APPREHENDED when he was shot. he was laying face down on the ground with his hands behind his back. one cop was basically sitting on him. he didn't swing on anyone, he was unarmed, he didn't reach for anyone's weapon...he posed no threat. everything he did before that moment is irrelevant.

THEY SHOOTIN'! ah, i made you look.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] They-Call-Me-Steve 10 years ago

yellowtulips, read it again. deezmofoz never pulled the "black-card!" in his post, but I believe you just did.

Furthermore, "asking for trouble" and "getting shot in the back at close range while a second cop already has you subdued with his foot on your head" are two entirely different things. One calls for action, the other is murder. Nobody asked for that, not even the dummy who pulled the trigger.

[–] Suboxone 10 years ago

How did he not comply with the cops? He did not resist arrest at all. They had there knees on his back and he wasn't going anywhere.

[–] They-Call-Me-Steve 10 years ago

kuntext ...
Interesting how you pick and choose where to place blame. It's Oscar's fathers fault? Oscar was pinned down and shot in the back because he was born with a lousy father 22 years ago? However, that "poor cop" who put the bullet in Oscar's back and murdered him damn near executioner style is innocent because hey, he only did it by accident, correct? "The horror that poor cop must feel" is sad? Sad indeed that a trained professional couldn't tell the difference between a taser and a handgun! What about "the horror" Oscar felt breathing his last breaths, or "the horror" that shook his family to the core in that waiting room?

Oscar's father, lousy as he may have been, feels a sense of entitlement? Oscar too? Wait... you know what, maybe you're right about that one actually. I too feel entitled that myself or my loved ones can ride public transit without getting murdered by inept cops, call me cooky. For the record, I do agree that the fathers lawsuit was frivolous. I believe Oscar's close family and friends (other Fruitvale Station detainees) were compensated though, so that's good.

How many men were detained on that platform, how many got killed and what was the difference? About 5 were detained I think, so that means 20% of them were killed. The answer to "how many got killed" should have been 0%, but since 20% is significantly higher than 0% I'd have to say it's a pretty big difference.

"If Oscar had sat still, he'd be alive. If Oscar had waited for attention, he'd be alive. If Oscar had stopped kicking and submitted to being handcuffed, he'd be alive. If Oscar had submitted to authority, he would have lived. If Oscar had done what everyone else did, he would have lived." ... And finally if Johannes Mehserle didn't RECKLESSLY PUT A BULLET IN OSCAR'S BACK, he would have lived.

You seem to take issue with Oscar trying to defend himself, his friends, and "his rights" (which you put in quotations as if it's a bad thing). While I agree he handled it poorly and is no saint in this situation, nothing he did was reason enough for the police to open fire. So I ask you, how is it you can spend about 5 paragraphs tearing down Oscar Grant's character, repeating over and over in different words how he could have and maybe should have handled the situation better, but in regards to Johannes Mehserle's role in all of this (poor fella) "it was just an accident"? Shouldn't trained professionals and authority figures know better? Maybe they need rubber bullets, or better training, or their superiors need to come up with a better screening process when hiring these guys, but they are at least 50% responsible in the murder of Oscar Grant, if not the full 100%. Yet you sympathize with them.

Classic victim bashing.

[–] kuntext 10 years ago

Classic victim bashing.

No, I'm not. But, there are those with racist hatred, so deeply embedded, that they can't see past it far enough to see what is right in front of their eyes.

For instance, I already said that Oscar's death was a tragedy, as would anyone's - regardless of criminal history or goodness. I'm anti-death penalty - which is partly because of its racist application. But, I'll repeat it for you...

Oscar's death was a tragedy.

Having said that, I went on to look at the multiple choices he made which brought him closer to his own death. Looking at each WRONG step he took may prevent more people from becoming victims.

There's a cost to teaching minority children to deal with their civil rights while being detained by government authorities. Sometimes, that cost is deadly. I'm not saying Oscar is wrong and the cop is right. I'm saying Oscar is dead while the other detainees lived. The detainees who survived deserve WAY more attention, because it is their story that may save others in the future.

Please look up the word, PRAGMATIC. At no time did I say I disagreed with the civil rights issues. I simply say, "Don't be dead right."

If you hate what happened to Oscar, then go to law school and change the laws. (not you, specifically, but anyone) You know, be powerful - but that means getting educated, gaining skills of power and THEN, you can be effective. As opposed to being dead.

Debate my points. Challenge my perspective. Prove me wrong. Only, do it with a smile.

[–] stabiljka 10 years ago

The problem with your reasoning is that you completely disregard emotional side of the problem. Oscar went through a lot that day, and decided to really change.
He did everything to stay positive, and when finally things seemed to go right, he was physically attacked by those thugs. Have you ever been physically attacked by dangerous people? Do you really think that "everybody else" would be calm in that situation, tolerate insults and being handcuffed by a brute of that police officer?
You also compare him to others in the arrested group but in fact his behaviour was the best. He was actually trying to calm others, and the least deserving of any harm in that group.

[–] kuntext 10 years ago

stabiljka -

In response to:

"Classic victim bashing."

I wrote:

"No, I'm not. But, there are those with racist hatred, so deeply embedded, that they can't see past it far enough to see what is right in front of their eyes.

For instance, I already said that Oscar's death was a tragedy, as would anyone's - regardless of criminal history or goodness. I'm anti-death penalty - which is partly because of its racist application. But, I'll repeat it for you...

Oscar's death was a tragedy.

Having said that, I went on to look at the multiple choices he made which brought him closer to his own death. Looking at each WRONG step he took may prevent more people from becoming victims.

There's a cost to teaching minority children to deal with their civil rights while being detained by government authorities. Sometimes, that cost is deadly. I'm not saying Oscar is wrong and the cop is right. I'm saying Oscar is dead while the other detainees lived. The detainees who survived deserve WAY more attention, because it is their story that may save others in the future.

Please look up the word, PRAGMATIC. At no time did I say I disagreed with the civil rights issues. I simply say, "Don't be dead right."

If you hate what happened to Oscar, then go to law school and change the laws. (not you, specifically, but anyone) You know, be powerful - but that means getting educated, gaining skills of power and THEN, you can be effective. As opposed to being dead."

And you replied:

The problem with your reasoning is that you completely disregard emotional side of the problem.

Yes, taking a pragmatic view does require an attempt at eliminating emotional concerns from the assessment. Rationale, reasoning, logic. To attain these views, we do have to rise above the sheer primal, emotional response of children. How simple to express outrage at injustice, how easy! Job done! Or, not.

I look at what each person has control over and I model behaviors of those who find outcomes I wish to share and wish others to share. In this case, it's literal survival and Oscar is the role model for how to die in the situation while those who live to tell the tale are the role models for how to survive the situation.

I do feel emotional about it, but mostly, I feel emotional enough to share my view that our focus needs to be on what CAN be done, and teaching young people to learn from Oscar's mistakes seems the most positive outcome available from this tragic killing.

I find great disrespect for Oscar's memory in using him to win the "who's the biggest victim contest." He had power. He used it ineffectively. He wasn't some random victim of some racist cop... he resisted arrest and that is a life-threatening risk to take.

It can be true that the cop was racist. It can be true that the cop is a vile human. And, it can simultaneously be true that when dealing with racist cops, there is a way to survive. My previous posts list numerous choices that Oscar made that brought him to his death. This thread is full of posts which push an agenda that he had no power and that he made no choices. Yeah, he did. So, did the others and they made better choices, IMO, because their choices sustained life.

Oscar went through a lot that day, and decided to really change.
He did everything to stay positive, and when finally things seemed to go right, he was physically attacked by those thugs. Have you ever been physically attacked by dangerous people?

Yes, I have been in a guerrilla war zone, on my knees with an AK47 pushed against the back of my head. From my knees, I was able to keep others calm and talk the gunmen down. So, perhaps that experience informs my perception of what can be done in these situations.

And, what the heck, for other readers... a hint. The focus is on making sure the captors are clear that you can see they are your superior, that they are in complete control of you and of the situation. Every word needs to tell them THAT! It's not all about you, it's all about THEM. This is where Oscar failed. Rule #1. Submit. Once they feel in control, they calm down and begin to become capable of listening.

Oscar's rough day? He got angry at his boss, used drugs in the car and then put his innocent daughter in that car, lied to his girl friend... what rough day? I thought he'd abused the trust his boss had given him, let him down and then made excuses. Didn't the boss forgive him for the harm he'd caused by being a bad employee? But, he wasn't going to also give him a chance to harm him more, so he wouldn't re-hire him and Oscar had the nerve to be angry at him for that?

Others have also said Oscar was on his way to becoming a decent, honest and responsible man, but nothing in those scenarios points to his heading in that direction. He still lied, he still abused his daughter's entitlement to a drug-free car and he still showed immense ingratitude and rage at his previous employer! That night on the platform, he continued to put his feelings ahead of the rights of others and it killed him. Maybe he would have become a good person, but I see no signs of it. Talk's cheap.

Do you really think that "everybody else" would be calm in that situation, tolerate insults and being handcuffed by a brute of that police officer?

This is what I do and what I have taught children to do - submit to authority. Yes, you do tolerate insults and handcuffs and you shut up. You talk to your lawyer and the lawyer... who has power, deals with the cops. Or, you go to the news outlets. But, you have to live to do either, so yeah, FEEL the outrage at the injustice, but don't speak or act on the feelings. Act submissive and live. To do otherwise is just Darwinism.

You also compare him to others in the arrested group but in fact his behaviour was the best. He was actually trying to calm others, and the least deserving of any harm in that group.

Who gave Oscar permission to speak? to stand? No one! He was detained. He was under the control and authority of superiors. He had no power, no choice... because cops came and told him to sit down and to shut up while they got control of the situation. He was attention-seeking and demanded that they stop what they were doing with others to come focus on him... right then!!! Now! Him! Now! He impeded the police from their goals and like a child having a tantrum, demanded that they focus on his agenda. He failed to submit to THEIR authority.

Oscar used his power and his choices in ways which put others at increased risk, interfered with a police action to establish order in a public place and ultimately to reject civil authority. The other detainees made adult choices, law-abiding citizen choices and they deserve the respect of others for comporting themselves in such a manner.

Are we supposed to think that any one of the survivors would teach their kids to act as Oscar did, rather than how they themselves chose to act on that platform?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Debate. Not hate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[–] Furrerd 10 years ago

All good points but it still doesn't give police the right to slay a man under those circumstances. Lethal force isn't acceptable just because someone is not obeying your authority.

It's obvious the police need reform across the country as Albuquerque is attempting. The arrest of the officers and charge for murder, bypassing the grand jury, is a very necessary change. The facts of the case of a homicide by police need to be brought to trial. So many of the departments have gotten as bad as Albuquerque or Ferguson 2 miles from me.

Parenting books? Parenting books, I thought that..those were a joke? - Linda Belcher

[–] kuntext 10 years ago

Otter -

All good points but it still doesn't give police the right to slay a man under those circumstances. Lethal force isn't acceptable just because someone is not obeying your authority.

Agreed.

I'm simply saying that "Citizens RISK death by not obeying civil authorities." It's that way everywhere and it's been that way throughout recorded history. I see it getting even worse in America, as the police become increasingly militarized. I do my part to speak against it, but until it changes, I'll stick with my pragmatic view and live to fight another day.

It's false passion to only say the words, "our right" and "they should" unless the words are backed up with political action to affect positive change.

It's obvious the police need reform across the country as Albuquerque is attempting. The arrest of the officers and charge for murder, bypassing the grand jury, is a very necessary change. The facts of the case of a homicide by police need to be brought to trial. So many of the departments have gotten as bad as Albuquerque or Ferguson 2 miles from me.

Yes, and many of us have been working towards that goal. These two organizations are making some headway and if you (anyone) would like to do something, but don't know where to begin, you can access online petitions - yes, they do make a difference - and let your voice be heard, free.

https://www.aclu.org/war-comes-home-excessive-militarization-american- policing

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/military-police-and-arms/pol ice-and-human-rights

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Debate. Not hate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[–] mssmssmssmss 9 years ago

Are you aware that a lot of the film was "creative license"?

[–] russok044 10 years ago

So it's Oscar's fault he died? Not the unbelievably irresponsible police officer who shot him after he had been handcuffed and placed facedown on the ground? Because he talked back to the cop? Give me a break.

[–] megafauna005 10 years ago

What truly led to the fight on the subway? Did Oscar really meet that guy he knew from prison and cough with him?

Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] russok044 10 years ago

You are so hopelessly ignorant is Hollywood history that it isn't even worth listing the countless films that portray black criminals as bad. Oscar grant was a small time petty criminal, not a vicious street thug.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] russok044 10 years ago

You aren't told that in the movie because it isn't true. Oscar Grant was a petty criminal and small time pot dealer. And according to many people, a decent human being and a good father who had a bit of an anger problem. Your lack of empathy truly sickens me.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] russok044 10 years ago

Yeah there was a fight on the train with a guy he knew from prison. And no Oscar Grant was not out robbing people on New Year's Eve.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/07/12/fruitvale_station_true_story_fact_and_fiction_in_movie_about_bart_train.html

[–] Dragon6068 10 years ago

I lived in Oakland for many years and I lived there when this shooting took place. The cop was not an Oakland cop. He worked for BART. Bart cops are people who couldn't make it as city cops. Meserele was too stupid to be able to tell the difference between his taser and his firearm. I have friends who are Oakland cops and they all said that the taser is lighter in weight and feels differently than their firearms. The cop was incompetent. The movie never deals with the cop saying that he meant to only taze Grant. Oscar was face down and handcuffed. He should have been arrested but not killed. Meserle should go back to Germany! Verstehen Sie you GD Nazi!

[–] kuntext 10 years ago

First of all, do you have factual information regarding the Nazi status of the cop or are you expressing bigotry, hate and ignorance?

Please clarify by posting the link to the resource which proves Nazism.

Debate my points. Challenge my perspective. Prove me wrong. Only, do it with a smile.[cooldance]

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] kuntext 10 years ago

mega,

I got a message you posted a reply to my comment asking for another poster to provide a resource supporting his claim that a German-American is a Nazi.

Did you mean to reply to me?

Debate my points. Challenge my perspective. Prove me wrong. Only, do it with a smile.[cooldance]

[–] Zanderio 10 years ago

Surgeons kill people by accident and they don't get jailed for it.

Are you serious??