Murky, dreary, abstruse, unintelligible, contrived..... Way too many
too white roles to be believable to a true Detroiter.
Well I'M from Detroit, a real Detroiter born and raised, and I like it. Different strokes for different folks.
shareKind of agree with you lawcrol especially in their depiction of the police department. I worked at 1300 in the mid 80's and the force was largely black even back then. I mean I know it's TV but I can't imagine a white crew running an after hours joint like that in Detroit. Those sets do exist because I used to go to one on the East side with some cops back in the 80's. They have the tone right at the after hours joint but the wrong color running it.
shareYep, and can you imagine a hot blond woman working alone in a bar (no buzzer) in inner-city Detroit? Almost comical.
shareYou got that right LOL!
shareIt's Greek Town - which from what I have read is turning more white all the time.
shareAt least that bar with a blonde never has any customers. Safer that way. And cheaper.
shareDetroilet is a total craphole of a city. I really don't think it makes for a good setting for any movie/TV show except perhaps if you are filming a movie/TV show taking place in Beirut.
shareSome of you people are real idiots. Let's start with the charge that the racial make-up of the show is disproportionate. Really? That is a very tired, pointless and cliched criticism. It's typical ignorance to assume there are no white people in Detroit. Nothing could be further from the truth. And the make-up of the cast? Mostly ethnic, mostly minority...even a Chaldean woman, which is not only different, and progressive...but also consistant with the huge Metro Detroit Chaldean population.
Regarding the notion that a hot blond could or would walk into a Detroit bar alone.....you ignorant, sheltered little men. Try walking into Cheli's (Chris Chelio's bar) before a Tiger game. Try getting into Hockeytown Cafe. Try having a beer out on the patio at The Ellwood. The crowd is not only 70-80% white, but insane amounts of hot blond chicks in Tiger gear.
Regarding Fatt-4's assumption that Detroit is a craphole? Really, you little turd? When's the last time you've left your mother's basement and actually been there? I'm there right now. Was here last night during the Jazz Festival, where Hart Plaza and the RiverWalk were absolutely flooded with people enjoying jazz on the river...yachts cruising the waterfront between Detroit and Windsor...fireworks...just amazing. Craphole? Really? Try driving along the nautical mile on your way to the Grosse Pointe area. Not only is the scenery amazing, but the houses and neighborhoods are breathtaking. That area is one of the richest, most beautiful neighborhoods in the country. Fact. Try hitting Greektown for dinner before a Tigers game. Try hitting the casino and then a White Stripes concert at The Magic Stick. Try hitting the DIA on a Friday night, followed by some jazz at Baker's or Cliff's Belles. Try taking a riverboat cruise along the Detroit river and enjoying not only the view of Detroit's spectacular architecture...but Windsor, Canada as well!
Red WIngs, Tigers and Lions, all within walking distance of each other. World-class Cobo Hall, the home of the largest auto show in the world. World-class museums and theater district. A major film industry (The next Man of Steel/Batman movie....filming HERE). 3 major casinos. And people like Mike Ilitch, Roger Penske and Dan Gilbert creating new businesses here seemingly every week. The birthplace of Motown and the Mustang. I could go on and on, but it's really a waste of time conversing with some jerk who just completely insult and writes-off an entire city based solely on old, tired, dated cliches and myths. Detroit is a city rich in culture, pride, history and production. To understand its history ALONE is to gain instant respect. Detroit is not the first city with pockets of blight and poverty, and it won't be the last. But it's on a HUGE upswing of recovery and development. We should be routing for Detroit--it is a microcosm for the challenges all major cities in the U.S. face. Why piss on it when it's down? Why not get behind it...recognize all the GREAT things about it?? It's easy (and shows a certain level of simple-minded lowlife) to take the same tired cheap shots at Detroit. It shows a certain level of class when someone actually looks beyond the cheap shots and points out some of the greatness. Be original. Any idiot can jump on the bandwagon and say the same tired sh_t. Try rising above that bs.....like Detroit is doing. Kicking something when it's down says a lot more about the person doing it than it does about the place you're casting stones at.
A nice impassioned look at Detroit. I spent my first 16 years growing up in Detroit before going away for college. For the last 20 years I have gone back exactly once per year for Xmas to visit family and high school friends. Now at 47 I have a really conflicted view of the city. I loved growing up there but my family was happily middle class and stable, and as a kid I couldn't complain. But seeing the city in yearly snapshots for a week at a time, it's hard not to be really sad at its decline.
The one area where the other posters definitely have it wrong is the racial makeup. I grew up in a racially mixed neighborhood (mostly black but a noticeable white presence as well) and my high school was probably 30% white. I think if you are in an all black neighborhood and/or don't really have white friends or coworkers its easy to think that is what the whole city is like. But it's not like that everywhere. As far as my life, family and friends goes, this racial picture is pretty accurate.
What is inescapable is the continued inability to get momentum building up the inner city core. You list a lot of cool developments but what stands out in my once a year visits is that the downtown and immediately surrounding areas is steadily disintegrating. And worse is that the residential parts interspersed in the downtown area are now flattened which leaves these desolate swaths of land that highlights just how much has gone. It always seems like one step forward two steps back. It's sad.
Detroit needs to lure a high profile company like Apple to build an industrial and manufacturing campus downtown and let it be tax free for a decade. At least that way they could build a huge community of people with money to spend that would give a real jolt to the elusive momentum the city so needs.
"Detroit needs to lure a high profile company like Apple to build an industrial and manufacturing campus downtown and let it be tax free for a decade. At least that way they could build a huge community of people with money to spend that would give a real jolt to the elusive momentum the city so needs."
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surf....I appreciate your post and your perspective. At least you're trying to be fair and look at the whole picture. However, by your own admission, much of your current updates and awareness of The D comes from brief, once-per-year visits. I live and breath it every day (by choice).
You mention the city needing a big company to move in and be a catalyst for growth and excitement. That very thing has been happening. I'd say Compuware (one of the top 10 software companies in the world) moving its headquarters downtown was a huge start. That sparked all sorts of exciting growth. And more recently, Dan Gilbert (owner of Cleveland Cavs, CEO of Quicken Loans, etc...) moved a Quicken Loans HQ into downtown Detroit and has been making investments right and left. Soon the Red Wings will have a brand new sports complex on the water...within walking distance of the Lions and Tigers. And in the outskirts...like Eastern Market, Indian Village, Corktown, etc....all sorts of young, artsy types are moving into the lofts and generating a wonderful new energy to downtown. It's really special what's happening here. Sure there are vacant buildings and lots in some blighted areas. Change needs to start at the core...and work its way out in concentric circles. And it is. You need to bulldoze the blight before you can resurrect the land with new developments. That is happening.
Actually, I think my once a year perspective is a better vantage point for this type of top down, birds eye analysis. My parents and sibling have been in Detroit for the full span of my 47 years as well as over half of my best friends from my high school days. I'm the guy who left to travel the world and make my fortune (the jury's out on that one) but I get constant updates from dozens of people on their living and breathing of Detroit every day (by choice for them as well).
My observation is that when you see it in discreet chunks it's really easy to see the milestones and noticeable changes and/or declines in certain neighborhoods and energy in the community. If you're in it 24/7 you don't really see the gradual but inescapable pull of the decline. You're just living it and like almost all of my buddies actively doing whatever you can to improve your community. It's hard to see the forest for the trees, as they say.
All the things you mention are great but the overall reality is that year to year there is always a net negative pull going on within the city. I see it every time my buddies take me out to experience the newest neighborhood, restaurant, office building, etc. I've seen all those things you mention and I agree the Quicken and Compuware area is nice. But that's just a few blocks. And those residential developments aren't making up for the huge swaths of prime city real estate that are now just dirt.
I'm not trying to be a complete downer and don't forget this is my hometown. My parents and siblings are still there and it bums me out I am not more optimistic about it. But getting back to my Apple example, Detroit needs a plan of action that is much more aggressive and game changing than they have been able to execute thus far. Quicken and Compuware are great companies but they're software and services companies that only employ white collar workers. Nice but that is only going to get the city so far, especially given its manufacturing roots.
In my humble opinion, Detroit needs to transform and rebrand itself as the South Korea of the midwest. Samsung has ripped off every good idea from Apple and GE they could get their hands on. It's time Detroit ripped Samsung a new one and showed that its historical excellence in engineering and manufacturing is not dead. The US is dying for a return to cutting edge manufacturing on our shores and if Detroit was smart and well managed it could grab that and run with it. Detroit needs a comprehensive plan that entices people to move back instead of away, but that also embraces it's core blue collar community. That's the kind of momentum I'm talking about. Real transformation that reverses decades of decline.
I think we're sort of on the same page, I just wish there was a more aggressive plan of action on the table to counter the one step forward, two steps back thing that has been the norm. And a dynamic leader making it happen.
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There's something that will never change and that's the cold cold winter in SE Michigan. I spent half my life in Metro and the other half in Southern California. L.A. has some very rough neighborhoods and Santa Ana is the largest barrio in the country but the weather is glorious. Ann Arbor is held up as the jewel but I can't think of another movie with more footage of Ann Arbor than 'The Five Year Engagement'. So what happens? Jason Segel loses a toe to frost bite.
shareMoondoggie....I'll bet Southern Cal is wonderful, but I wouldn't trade a Michigan fall for anything. :) Sounds like you grew up in Michigan. Do you miss the 4 distinct seasons?
shareFall colors, crisp air, new model year cars, the Wolverines winning on Saturday and the Lions losing on Sunday, that's the best time of the year. Then comes Winter. My last Winter was the year of the Pontiac Silverdome Superbowl. Zero degrees Fahrenheit for 20 days straight. See ya!
I was in the NW 'burbs (WB) and visited Grosse Pointe(s) exactly once to pick up a date to take her for dinner at the London Chop House downtown. I think I saw more of Grosse Pointe while watching 'Grosse Point Blank' than while living in Metro D for 30 years.
This reply is not only to you moondoggie, but to everyone here with personal stories about their love of Detroit. I admit, first, to being victim to what I see on the news about the city, and that's something I caution my son NOT to do, "hear what they tell you, but LISTEN to what they're not saying" is my mantra to him. The inspiring stories I read here make me feel doubly stupid for not being more mindful. Geography figures into this for me also, furthering my idiocy. I live just west of Cleveland, OH (it gets a bad rap too, but there is "life" here), so I shouldn't buy into what I hear just by virtue of my proximity to Detroit. I came to the boards only to read about the show, I'm leaving a smarter man. I did watch the Documentary BURN, which chronicles, for a year, the Detroit Fire Dept's change in policy regarding structures, known to be empty, to be left to burn down. That was nothing short of heartbreaking to see men, who would have normally run headlong in to stop it, forced to watch a building burn to the ground, their role being relegated to ensuring the fire didn't spread. Pragmatically I can relate to the policy, but emotionally you feel their anguish. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend it. I now owe it to all of you to visit the city myself to experience what I wasn't listening to.
THX
surf-10: Other than luring some industrial corporate juggernauts to Detroit to try to jumpstart it, what is the local political scene like?
In the cities I've lived in, I've often found the local politicians (mayors, city councils, etc.) to be the key thing really hamstringing the city's forward progress. If it's not their own internecine political ego and turf battles, then it's just their plain stupidity - and I mean that literally.
Some people can get enough votes to get elected but they just aren't smart enough to understand the issues and/or evaluate the situations and options before them and make a reasoned decision for the future good of the city. In those cases, the non-discriminating voters who put them there kind of deserve the fools they elected.
I completely agree with you on every point you made. That is for sure a good description of where Detroit is. Implementing a plan like what I think makes sense would probably be best lead by someone outside of Detroit's local political scene. Someone who has seen and been a part of how other resurgent cities did it needs to be imported into Detroit.
I think a good example or model is NYC's Rudy Giuliani. Not everything he did was great but he did such an amazing job cleaning up NYC and making the streets safer that after he left office he spent the next several years doing consulting with city mayor's around the globe who begged him to come and lend his expertise in duplicating those results for them. Detroit could really use an outside expert at bringing transformational change to it's industrial and business infrastructure.
In my opinion, I think Parrots are criminally under-represented in this production.
shareYou clearly know nothing about Detroit, and im not even from there. Not gonna waste my time explaining it to a troll though.
shareOr maybe Mogadishu...
shareI'm sure there are some inconsistencies with the true Detroit, as there are with other scripted TV shows.
We may need to give LWS a chance. The show-runner, Chris Mundy, is reknowned and has a respectable reputation in the industry. I recall that Mundy moved to Detroit for 6 months or so, in order to get the feel for this historic US city. Detroit is in the process of rebuilding. I believe Mundy, provided we give him a chance, will expose the good heart of Detroit.
Well said, Walking_Bread!
Nice post.
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The show would have been ethnographically accurate about 40 years ago. But not today. Even back then, the idea of a good looking, skinny little white kid (with appropriate ghetto stubble and stocking cap) opening a blind pig and whorehouse in the inner-city is just laughable.
shareAnd didn't he get robbed, his right hand man killed, and then later murdered himself for stepping on the wrong toes?
"I heard a story about a skinny white boy......" "Tell me how that story ends."- Rev Lowdown- as he gets handed the picture of Damon shot up and ran over.
We know how the story ended for him. So what's the problem?
Rev even said in their first meeting, "I see two skinny white boys trying to play gangster" so your complaint was addressed by the characters in the show right from the start.
"Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal"
For starters....how many ARE white? In the precinct, almost everyone is ethnically diverse, except the IA guy....and who's to say he'd need to be living in Detroit. Detroit cops don't necessarily need to live within the city limits. As far as the guys opening the blind pig......again, who's to say they need to be Detroit citizens to be dwelling in the city committing an opportunistic crime in an oportunistic place?? Either way, there are pockets of Detroit (and surrounding areas) that are VERY ethnically diverse...including white. In fact, more whites have moved back into the downtown area in the past year than in the previous decade.
Sure, in any fictional show some creative license is taken....and sometimes you need to suspend some disbelief. Do you really think ANYTHING in Grey's Anatomy actually happens that way? Do you think everyone would actually be young, attractive and white? In the show The Walking Dead....do you really think there are zombies that eat people?
There was no disclaimer at the beginning of Low Winter Sun which said: "The following is a documentary of true events, depicting the exact ethnic make-up of Detroit, plus or minus one percentage point."
A STORY is being told. It doesn't NEED to be spot-on with real life. HOWEVER....I happen to live in downtown Detroit, and the way it's depicted in LWS is plenty close enough. What is with you people? Slow week to gripe about something?
I go to Detroit about 1-3 times a year.
I stay in Windsor and go across for the day. Usually back to back days for sporting events or concert.
All I can say is it's alive and well an hour before game time and an hour after. Then the city dies. Literally, empty streets, no cars. Scary as *beep*
Those foolish enough to move from canada to america increase the average I.Q. of both countries
Most of the complainers of the show's ethnic accuracy sound racist to me.
shareI can't speak for Detroit Police Department, but I can speak for the Michigan State Police post in downtown Detroit, where most of the makeup is only about 20 percent African Americans. I think it's time to get away from the notion that inner city always means "ghetto".
Detroit is composed of more than what TV shows and movies will show you. It's not all ravaged buildings and abandoned houses. During many of my breaks in between classes at Wayne State (a beautiful college located in downtown Detroit), we were able to see the beauty of a misunderstood city. I've overhear people always talking about Detroit being "full of crimes", yet DC, Chicago, New Orleans, LA and New York outrank it. The reputation does not always uphold.
In summary: Detroit has its good parts and its bad parts...just like any other big city in the US.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.
TheMociety...EXACTLY.
People just mindlessly glom onto tired old stereotypes and images...and have no clue what they're talking about. They simply take cheap shots at an easy target, which to me is pretty ignorant and classless.
Detroit is a beautiful city with amazing history, architecture, culture, sports, etc, etc, etc. Speaking of Wayne State, I was just there earlier this evening for Dally in the Alley. VERY cool and diverse campus right in the Midtown area. The D has culture galore and a huge influx of youthful energy if you just know where to go.
I grew up in Metro, even the good parts of Detroit are now deteriorated and/or empty. Last time I was in Detroit I went to Greek Town and the Fox Theater - it was NOT how I remembered it as a kid. It was an all-around gloomy scene. I think most who praise Detroit are people who never moved out of Michigan. They don't have any real perspective of what a functioning city in the 21st century looks like. After living in LA for half a decade, I finally understand what the rest of the country has been talking about. What's going on in Detroit today is NOT something to be optimistic about on the whole.
To my Detroit natives, I know it sounds like I'm a sellout, but it's true. Take a train to Chicago for a weekend, or compare the activity on their city streets during lunchtime on a weekday to that of Detroit's. Hell, just take a trip over the river and observe Windsor. Go to Google Maps, and LOOK at Detroit's downtown area, and its vast collection of abandoned buildings. Then compare those images to ANY other metropolitan American city. How many cities in America has so many abandoned houses and buildings that it is fire dept policy to let them burn down? Just one. I swear to God, my first year in LA on Devil's Night I was shocked to discover that Devil's Night house burning only goes down in Detroit. I casually/jokingly said to some co-workers "better watch out for arsonists tonight" and they looked at me like I was from Mars. I was THAT naive, and I think a lot of Michigan/Detroit natives are too. You'd HAVE to be to make the claim that Detroit is a beautiful city with a great future. For Christ's sake, Detroit's illiteracy rate is approaching 50%!
THIS IS NOT NORMAL.
I know Detroit's history, and what it used to be - which makes accepting the truth so much harder. I love Detroit, but I'm not going to lie to myself or anyone else. Detroit is in a very bad way, and it is definitely not going to change if the people of Detroit live in a state of delusion. Anyone who praises Detroit's current state is not holding that city up to a high enough standard. It's time to own up to it, and accept it - despite the fact that it used to be among the best, Detroit is currently the worst major city in the US.
Thanks.
Do you feel better?
No. Truth doesn't always make people feel better, delusion does. However, I always try to go with the truth because it has more to offer in the end.
shareI don't have a dog in the fight. Never been to Michigan to my knowledge (which is kinda weird because I've been to about 40 states...my family traveled a lot when I was a kid).
All I have to say is, in the 1970's people thought New York would never recover. When I moved to Los Angeles in 2001 the area I live in was full of sketchy people and I hated to be out at night. Since then it has gentrified greatly.
I don't believe any area is beyond recovery.
(Also because of this show, I have become very interested in Detroit and its present/future...so there's that for all the people who feel it's a terrible representation of the city)
To John.....
Delusion? Really man?
You have your opinion, I have mine. I've been to PLENTY of major cities, including LA (which has some nice areas and some crap areas)....so I definitely have a frame of reference. I used to live in Chicago. Been to New Orleans 6 times....including once to help rebuild after Katrina, etc, etc. It is not "delusional" to focus on the positives and to take issue with people who simply default to easy cliches and tired, go-to put downs. People who kick something when it's down and seem to revel in it....many who really have never even been here and have zero idea what they're talking about. YOU should have issue with those people as well.
Delusional? I have acknowledged many times Detroit has many challenges ahead of it and has seen better days. But that does NOT mean I can't point out its many positives. The two notions aren't mutually exclusive of each other. And if you know the area...and still have an inability to find and point out a lot of positives...well, you just don't have much credibility at all with me.
EVERY major city has it's problem areas and nice areas. Been to New Orleans recently? The reason Detroit's challenge is magnified is because it's the size of 3 average major cities, with a population of just 700,000. Naturally there will be blight and rundown areas, which is being addressed.
"The truth". Please. This isn't about truth vs. lies. It's about me acknowledging some positives in a city I think is great....only to have some prick come on here and dump all over it. How original. Take a cheap shot at an easy target.
Delusional? WHo the eff is delusional. I've never denied the bad stuff. I simply tell the bashers there's more than just the bad. There's a lot of good...and a lot to be hopeful about. There's just nothing wrong or "delusional" about that. Dick.
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This much I agree with you on. As much as I'd like to say it to that person, I pulled it out. Some things I'll just think to myself...and that will be enough.
share[deleted]
No, the other things I meant, 100%. He is kind of a dick. And he can feel the same about me--probably does. Who cares.
Dolce, I never, EVER claimed to be tolerant or rational. YOU are putting those titles on me. In fact, I've stated very early on I have zero tolerance for trolls like you. I call things like I see them. And if a poster like you or John can't handle my language, say so and I will treat you with kid gloves. I'm just one person with an opinion.
In any case, I have zero left to say to you. Your posts are 100% contrarian and have little to do with LWS. You have trolled around here for weeks looking to take a counter-point to every single post made on these boards. Hell, I'm the only one who even engages you...and that feeds a troll. To ignore one...is to render him impotent. Good luck with that.
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Go Tartars!
share[deleted]
Speaking as a person who grew up in Detroit, I like this show for one reason: It's filmed in Detroit. And does the ethnicity REALLY matter? Its a homegrown tv show. After the demise of Detroit 187, I'm glad to see that there are still movies and tv shows being made here after our dimwitted governor eliminated the Film Tax Credit and trashed the greatest opportunity to reinvent the troubled state economy.
LWS is a gritty, grim drama that takes place in a city that's been gritty and grim for most of my life so its accurate in that sense.
SUPPORT THIS SHOW!!!!
I too support this show and hope it returns for a 2nd season; however, I was interested in your comment about your "dimwitted" governor's elimination of film tax credits because I remembered reading about the very substantial incentives given by the state for the production of LWS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Winter_Sun
According to Mundy, the state of Michigan approved $7.5 million in incentives for the series' production. Low Winter Sun is expected to create 245 jobs and spend approximately $26 million in the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_production_incentives_in_the_United_States#Michigan
A September 2010 report by the Michigan Senate Fiscal Agency detailed the economics underlying the state's incentive programs. In particular it found that:
• Michigan spent $37.5 million in FY2008-09 to generate $21.1 in private sector spending, and would go on to spend $100.0 million in FY2009-10 to generate $59.5 million.
• Taken together, the report concludes that the net revenue impact on the state was a cost of $30.8 million in FY2008-09, $91.4 million in FY2009-10, $111.8 million in FY 2010–11, and likely to continue to increase over time.
Given the huge net losses that the Michigan's film incentive program had in the past, I'm not sure why you are such a fan of the program, but since you are, I wish you all the best. I sincerely hope it works in favor of Michigan this time.
The real winner with these incentive programs is "Hollywood" since at least 44 of the 50 states are aggressively competing with each other to offer increasingly generous incentives. And when it comes to the final cost of these incentive programs, remember who are the most creative geniuses in "Hollywood." They are not the writers – they are the ACCOUNTANTS!
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I can relate I hate shows with too many blacks (ooh no he didn't). But anyways, yeah Detroit is a crap hole of a city run by thugs and non tax paying slugs, you have a mayor on probation. Too bad your poor city helps bring America down.
Keep voting for D's and R's America the 1% is counting on you to be their servants.
@loki242
Whatever, you racist troll. The downtown areas and Midtown have truly been thriving there the couple of years. People work and pay taxes here just like anybody else, you fckg racist idiot. And, uh, white people not only come to party downtown during the weekends and walk the streets at all times of the night, some of them actually LIVE here because a lot of them have been recently moving in from the suburbs! Oooh, how shocking! Since you probably have never been to the D in your entire life, just STFU about it. Stay the hell across Eight Mile or wherever the hell you're from.