MovieChat Forums > The Lifeguard (2013) Discussion > is this pro feminist or anti

is this pro feminist or anti

posted 11 years ago by manicmeuk
17 replies | jump to latest

i think its clever how by making people ask "íf a man did it would it be ok?" actually makes this film a statement about feminism.

the question shouldnt really be there at all. dont know if it was intentional tho.

i get the impression the director felt that she was arguing that women should be able to behave a certain way, but i got the vibe that it was more that women shouldnt be able to behave a certain way just because they are women.

do you think the film is pro femininism as it asks people to treat leigh the same as a man and judge her the same, or is it anti for saying that women should be able to do what they want?

either way i think the biggest flaw with the film was the fact it just didnt give a solid enough argument for the way leigh behaved but im curious with the directors outspoken opinions on feminism if you think her movie helped with the feminist movement or did some damage

[–] Airman87 11 years ago

The Director - Liz Garcia - has made it clear it's a pro-Feminist movie.

You can jump to the one minute mark here (or just read transcript below): https://www.sundance.org/video/meet-the-artists-13-liz-garcia/

"In our culture, there is room for men to bridle at domesticity; and what being married and having the responsibility of taking care of a family, um, mean in terms of the loss of freedom. Where as a woman are told that your goal is to settle down, um, that you shouldn't resent or mourn, um, the loss of freedom... and that ain't how it is. [laughs] So... We're all human and I don't think you've seen an American woman, or woman, deal with that in a film."

That's about as pro-Feminism as you can get.

[–] manicmeuk 11 years ago

thanks that really clarified the directors view! Ive picked up bits and pieces about her, but it definitely seems like she was trying to make a statement.

do you think she succeeded though? and was it the statement she was going for?

i know her intentions were for a feminist movie, but the actual movie just screamed of selfishness and immaturity. im not sure she actually succeeded in sending the positive message of feminine strength (though at the end at least the character grew up a bit). infact the movie for me gave out a really strong vibe of DONT DO THIS and i felt the main character was extremely weak. i felt some sympathy for the main character but through most of it i was just screaming at her to get it together.

but the backlash of people saying its sexist and that leigh should have been treated as though she was a man (in terms of how acceptable her behavior was)is actually a positive argument for feminism in that it highlights that there IS a divide between men and women and that it shouldnt be there, in this case through behavior, but i dont think thats quite what the director was going for!

i think its actually quite funny how the director wanted her film and her characters to push her views, but she actually made more of a point by doing a bad job and winding people up.

either way, im curious how her obviously strong views will come across in her future movies, i just hope she steers away from the finding youth through inappropriate relationships, or handling the subject with a bit more skill (the reader /american beauty etc)

[–] Zakredding 11 years ago

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here Mountainbiker...

"i know her intentions were for a feminist movie, but the actual movie just screamed of selfishness and immaturity."

Pretty accurate depiction of feminism right there then...

"im not sure she actually succeeded in sending the positive message of feminine strength"

There is no strength in feminism, they are generally hated by 90% of men and about 40% of women. They are generally thought of as irrational, erratic, unstable, men haters that achieve nothing except piss and moan at every opportunity and never get off their arse and actually achieve anything. They all preach equality yet all they ever do is protest for women's rights. When was the last time you saw them protesting for something that effected men as well? You never have and you probably never will.

"but the backlash of people saying its sexist and that leigh should have been treated as though she was a man (in terms of how acceptable her behavior was)is actually a positive argument for feminism in that it highlights that there IS a divide between men and women and that it shouldnt be there, in this case through behavior, but i dont think thats quite what the director was going for!"

There is no positive message for feminism in this film. Most people came out of the film hating the main characters and shocked at how dumb the woman was for doing what she did. It painted the woman as a clueless idiot without any form of moral compass. And as mentioned on the rest of the board if you had bothered to read the main posts, there may be a difference in what is socially acceptable but when it comes to the law there definitely isn't a difference. Women will be treated exactly the same when they are caught doing the actions depicted in this film and punished to the same extent of the law.

"i think its actually quite funny how the director wanted her film and her characters to push her views, but she actually made more of a point by doing a bad job and winding people up. "

Yes everyone now think:

1. She is a crap director
2. She is a feminist man hater
3. She is clearly a supporter for child sex
4. Women as depicted in this film are clueless morons that drift through life without ever engaging their brain.

Yes she has done a great job for the feminist movement... I think everyone will be rushing to sign up now....

[–] Airman87 11 years ago

I wonder if Director/Writer Liz Garcia was asked to a make a sequel, how would it go...

[–] kay_cee_d 11 years ago

There is no strength in feminism, they are generally hated by 90% of men and about 40% of women. They are generally thought of as irrational, erratic, unstable, men haters that achieve nothing except piss and moan at every opportunity and never get off their arse and actually achieve anything. They all preach equality yet all they ever do is protest for women's rights. When was the last time you saw them protesting for something that effected men as well? You never have and you probably never will.

Thanks for generalizing a whole group of people. That's real nice of you.

[–] Zakredding 11 years ago

I tell it how I and like I said about 90% of men and 40% of women see it.

Feel free to show me a feminist group who isn't spouting man hating crap, or thinks for itself instead of just repeating terms taken from the 1901 feminists dictionary or are really standing for equality and when tackling issues looking into talking it for men as well.

Really I would like to see one, as every one I have found and there are a lot and engaged with have had the characteristics I have described.

We aren't talking about feminists of old back in the 60's who actually had a purpose and goals which they achieved I am talking about current feminists who have no big goals to achieve (because equality has largely been achieved) so they spend all their time online attacking people and getting nothing done and generating large quantities of hatred towards women.

When a feminist then makes a film, it is then usually riddled with this hatred towards men, or tries to challenge why women are not treated better than men.

I can provide lots of examples if you require them but this isn't really the platform for it.

[–] kay_cee_d 11 years ago

In any large group you're going to have people who have radical boarding on insane/offensive views. And for whatever reason those people tend to be the most outspoken about their views. Doesn't mean that every person in that group shares their views exactly. I just don't think its okay to generalize a whole group of people.

[–] Zakredding 11 years ago

What feminists fail to realise is by sitting back and letting these quite frankly "psychos" represent them, they are effectively agreeing with them. Not once have I seen a feminist turn around to a radical feminist and tell them to shut up or that they don't stand for feminist values.

By doing nothing you are saying you don't care that you are being misrepresented, and that you don't care what people think of you, and as a result people are not clear what any feminist stands for and so people just put them in the crazy box with the rest of the activists.

Every film that is made by a feminist turns out to be completely sexist towards men. Just look at The Heat where you have women running around sexually insult / assaulting / injuring men every chance they get, Look at this film where you have another feminist writer who is trying to state it's ok for women to have sex with children yet if the tables were reversed there would be an uproar.

Again painting feminists whatever brand you are, In a very bad light.

Every time people see feminists online they are attacking men or being overly sexist, every time they see a film like mentioned above that was written by a feminist they are massively sexist and offensive.

You may not be one of these radical feminists but by associating yourself as a feminist you get a tiny bit of good and a shed load of bad when it comes to reputation. This is why 6 out of 7 women refuse to associate themselves as feminists, because it's a made up definition and as a result means different things to different people and a movement that is so dynamic as that is worthless.

[–] kay_cee_d 11 years ago

I don't think anyone is "letting" these people stand for feminism. As a black person and a Christian I deal with a lot of people thinking I am a certain way because there are people in these groups who are the most outspoken and get the most attention. And I don't even really think its just who yells the loudest. The media and the general population puts these stereotypes at the forefront all the time. In entertainment a good majority of black characters are shown as being "ghetto". These characters and people that are elevated in the media are often uneducated, dress a certain way, using terrible slang and do not reflect well on the group as a whole. And people believe that the majority of the group shares these same characteristics. So when I walk into a room people automatically assume these things about me, and that is totally unfair. They don't know that I love country and rock music, I rarely use slang, dress modestly, etc..... I've spoken to people who think that black directors can only do a certain genre and are all terrible (like Tyler Perry, who is far from my favorite director). That's wonderful.....I mean...its totally not the case that Tyler Perry is the most prominent one right now and other directors have a hard time getting wide releases or notice. I mean...Steven Mcqueen TOTALLY does the exact same kind of lame cliched and stereotypical movies that Tyler Perry does, because they're both black.

And as a feminist I don't hate men (don't really see why I would....again not every guy is the same). I can't stand "The Heat". I only mildly liked moments in this movie (I personally think that people deal with life the way they deal with it. If she needs to take time away because she's having a crisis...than she should be able to. She's unmarried with no kids and no ties. This is the time for her to figure her life out. However, I think that sleeping with an underaged kid was totally wrong and gross because he was clearly vulnerable). And I don't see how every single film made by a feminist hates on men. Have you seen every film made by feminists? You should not generalize. Not everyone is alike. Sure there are similarities, but everyone is different and no one should be forced into a box because its easier than looking at people as multi-layered. I'm not saying that everyone is a snowflake, but I don't think that every person in a group shares the same exact traits.

Sorry, I feel like I repeated myself a lot. And I really don't want to get into an internet fight, but I hate it when people stereotype others. Its just not fair.

I'd also like to add that I know there ARE feminists who give feminism a bad name. I am often bothered by women who think its okay to shame other women who want to be housewives. Not everyone wants a career. Not everyone has the same goals in life. The very point of this is to allow women to have rights and the ability to choose their life. If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, than let her be.

[–] Zakredding 11 years ago

I understand what you are saying but I'm sorry to say it IS up to you as a feminist to represent true feminism (as no one else is going to do it). If you don't stop the stereotypes by regularly stopping people claiming to be feminists but just stand around waiting to get into a man hating arguments you are ultimately letting them represent you.

For example if you look at political parties, if they have a member of the party that does not believe in the core values of the party and goes around trying to convince everyone that what they personally believe is true over what the party's message is, they are kicked out. This is because the party needs support, and in order to support something you need to have a good understanding of what it believes in. With feminism the reason most women will not associate with it is because every feminist that you meet has a different story.

When a movement such as feminism has aims which are so fluid and dynamic and everyone has their own agenda it's not surprising it gets a bad reputation.

In contrast MHRA groups are relatively organised, have clear goals as to what they are fighting for, people that start woman hate topics are banned from their sites and everything is kept civil. Feminism can learn a lot from their structure.

In this day and age where the media has a lot of power it's become even more important to stand up for your rights and make them heard otherwise people will just start to believe the stereotypes that the media so ignorantly portrays.

At the end of the day I know there are lots of different types of feminist and I am sure some of them are good level headed individuals, however for a newcomer trying to learn about what feminism is after perhaps seeing a newspaper article. The first thing they will see is the crazy nutters online openly attacking men and claiming there is something known as "rape culture". And with no one opposing the argument except men, it will leave a lasting impression that conforms to the stereotype.

I have seen a lot of films that have been written by feminists and I can confirm that they all have a slightly anti-man theme.

It's time feminists woke up to the fact they are misrepresented and start being more vocal about the core values, or they can continue to stick their heads in the sand and let their movement be hijacked by bitter twisted women with huge chips on their shoulder. If you want examples have a look at some the radical feminism content online, truly disturbing stuff clearly highlighting a lot of feminists have mental health issues.

[–] PrincessMoFo 10 years ago

You're just a woman hater.. I mean you seriously HATE women...

All feminism is to be treated equally as men are.. That's it! yet you have some kind of hard on of hate for that..

WOW...

[–] mps230 10 years ago

...like you are trying to convince yourself....look beyond the dictionary definition of feminism. MRA's and MGTOW hate nothing but sexism and inequality under the guise of equality and victimhood. Just the "all feminism is to be treated equally as men are." is a loaded statement. It implies that men have more rights and aren't treated as well. If anything women are treated better than men and protected and have more rights and the domination of all gender equity discussion thanks to feminism(so men don't even have a voice besides the places you scream misogyny just because it's a male safe space and dare to talk about bad things some women have done and how it is easier for them to take advantage of the system at mens expense. Just look at the family courts and how easy it is to ruin a mans life and career by accusing him of sexual assault, when a woman assaulting a man isn't even taken seriously and often laughed at.
The right to genetal integrity, the right to vote without conscription, the right to choose parenthood. Women get lesser sentencing and lesser jail time for the same crimes. Those are just a few of the rights that women have and men don't. Name a single right men have that women don't I dare you.. and before you just say "women make 77cents to every dollar men make for the same work" that is not true and has been debunked many times. The Equal pay act of 1963 is very much enforced and posted on the wall in every workplace. Show me any proof it is not being enforced. Also it takes a lot of balls to accuse the average of male employers of discrimination against women and cutting their pay.
You are trying to silence dissent by shaming and crying sexism and victimhood. you have no argument besides "you're just a woman hater" You are going against the kind of open discussion on equality that you claim to support. It sounds more like YOU have a hard on of hate for men and women to be treated equally. I'll ask you this.....do you support women and children first? because if you do you don't stand for equality and that is fine if you wish to be placed on the same level of responsibility as children, but don't expect to be taken seriously when you talk about equality because us men who would have to die for you because you are a female don't just take that sort of thing without thinking about it and how fair or how "right to life" lol it is. Feminist talk about women need more this women need more that. if you want to be treated like men, get used to nobody giving a *beep* and having to pull your own weight and look out for yourself in any situation. Women these days even with all the things feminism has done for them are statistically more unhappy than they have been in decades. That's what happens when you get treated like men. You have gotten it, don't like it and are now complaining for even further special treatment. You want to be treated like men without the bad parts and the responsibility, that comes with being a man. If you were being raped on the street, I would be expected to save you and shamed if I didn't and you wouldn't be expected to do the same and face no shaming. Helpless when it suits you and strong and independent when it suits you. That is what feminism has shown me. AND BY THE WAY, FEMINIST DOES NOT EQUAL WOMEN FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!! STOP TRYING TO CLAIM OWNERSHIP OVER WOMEN AS A FEMINIST. They have the RIGHT to think for themselves and once again feminists oppose this right when a woman disagrees with feminism. THERE IS A REASON WHY MOST WOMEN DON'T IDENTIFY AS A FEMINIST AND IT ISN'T BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN YOUR DICTIONARY DEFINITION FOR CHRISTS SAKE!!!! lol It is because they have taken their research of feminism further than the dictionary. Those are the strong and independent women I respect. Respect is earned. Not something you get because of your genetals. "Respect all women." when saying "respect all men" would probably be seen as misogyny in your eyes.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Airman87 11 years ago

Great points, and I strongly agree with you, manicmeuk.

The point the director tried to make about it being 'okay' for women to lash-out about fitting society's mold sure did fail. In the end I believe she ultimately created a film that ended up seeming to portray Leigh's midlife crisis too negatively.

Here's where I think the director totally sabotaged her own feminist plight: the two characters that attacked Leigh for being immature and having her mid-life crisis breakdown were MATURE FEMALES: her mom and her best friend Mel. Of course in the film we learn that Leigh's mom is having her own mid-life crisis (hence converting Leigh's room and starting the Dance Mamas class, building the add-on to the house as a spousal project, etc), and even her best friend Mel ventures on her own resentment of her life and follows Leigh into reliving their adolescence together.

Why it fails is that both of these woman (Mel and Leigh's mom) still take the 'high road' during the outbreak of their own mid-life crisis'. Leigh's mom maintained her maturity throughout the entire film and criticized Leigh's lack of her own. Leigh's friend Mel knew when 'limit' got crossed, yelled at Leigh, notified the school and Jason's father of the inappropriate relationship.

In the end the film basically spirals out of control giving every viewer the perception what Leigh did was completely wrong - and I don't mean just the sexual relationship with a minor - I mean quitting her job, moving back home with her parents, hanging around and smoking weed with kids, dragging her friends into her meltdown, etc.

The only positive (and I don't think you can even call it a positive) the viewer can really take away from the film is that a woman can take sexual advantage of a teenage child and not face any legal repercussions.

[–] HighriseView 10 years ago

manicmeuk, zackredding, mountainbiker... I can't believe you guys are this dense and still alive. It doesn't even feel worth it to argue with such genuine and profound lack of comprehension and plain stupidity. Just... wow.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] mps230 10 years ago

of course after this discussion culminates in pointing out the extremes and arrogance of feminism in practice and lack of positive feminist representation, this bitch with the Emma Watson avatar comes on here without an argument and nothing more than ad homs and shaming...directed at the men in the discussion of course. Take your sexist selfish #heforshe *beep* and *beep* off. I know you think that women are the champions of victimhood and think all men have money and power and privilege flowing in from the secret patriarchy mens club, but the world is a lot more complex than that. I bet you are the kind of person who regularly mocks the idea of men and boy's issues and then when you finally admit they exist after a bombardment of rock solid examples from MRA's and/or MGTOWs, you blame it all on patriarchy and say "when women achieve equality all men's issues will be fixed as a byproduct." ANOTHER example of women first, men second. That's not equal.