MovieChat Forums > Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017) Discussion > You know what I find contradicting?

You know what I find contradicting?


If Marvel and the director of Spider-man:Homecoming truly cared about being more diverse, why didn't they cast a more darker African american actress for Mary Jane Watson?

If these Zendaya/MJ rumors are true, and if the reason behind the casting is "diversity", how come they didn't just cast a full black actress instead of a half-white/half-black actress to play Mary Jane? I mean, you might as well, right? How come she has to be half-white in order to be good enough for the role of Mary Jane?

To my knowledge and everyone else's, Zendaya has a black father and a white mother.

To everyone that calls people a "racist" just because they disagree with a casting choice, how come you guys never said the same thing when people disagreed with Ben Affleck playing Batman back when he was announced in 2015?? Why does it have to be a race issue if we disagree with this casting choice? If anything, you SJW's are racist for even thinking that the reason most people don't agree with the MJ casting is because of the color of her skin.

You know, It's quite possible that the reason that we disagree with this decision is simply because we have seen Zendaya's acting in the past and were baffled when they announced that they had cast her in a Spider-man film. Don't be too quick to make assumptions that are not true.

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Biracial is the new Black.

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... cause it's not too different...

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Not that the Zendaya rumor IS true, I'm sure some people were disappointed by the very notion of it because of her acting skills. However, since we're on IMDB and given the ugly nature of many threads and posts on this board about it, it's definitely a racism thing.

What's missing in movies is same as in society: a good sense of work ethic and living up to ideals.

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Sure but there's still some of us that wanted or pictured an actress for the role and zendaya wasn't the end result. Just because we want an accurate look of Mary Jane doesn't make us racists. If your definition of racism is disagreeing with the casting instead of outright putting out racial slurs such as the n word all over this board then there's something wrong with you buddy.

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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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And that's exactly what I find hypocritical.

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I discovered this baout myself and yes... it did raise some questions within me.

I noticed that I immediately went "nah, too dark... looks even LESS like MJ!". Which might simply be that there has to be some semblance of the traditional MJ to be acceptable, and that people have set the bar at different heights. some people needed a white person, others are ok with someone a little darker.

Maybe it means that you automatically draw conclusions that the darker someone is,the more "ghetto" they act, even if skin color doesn't correlate at all with socioeconomics. Perhaps it's easier to imagine a half white half black girl to act "like MJ" and not "like a black girl". Something like that?

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I am the forefunkel of jiggerjab.

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Then that just proves my point. These casting choices are not at all for diversity. If people are okay with seeing a more light skinned biracial actress playing MJ, it defeats the purpose of their "diversity is good, stop being racist" argument. They contradict themselves and it makes them look like hypocrits. Its like they are saying, a darker african american woman has no capability of pulling off a role like this, so let's turn up the notch on the color. If to them, "the color of someone's skin has no effect at all on their acting skills", why wouldn't they be okay with a full african american actress to play MJ, instead of a biracial actess?

I know it seems like I am making a big deal out of this, but so do most of these people who don't like when someone disagrees with a casting decision. I know by now you might have heard the news that Spider-man was photographed swinging with a redhead in some new set photos. This makes me more skeptical and most likely debunks those rumors. Who knows, maybe she's just a random citizen that Spidey rescues OR they already casted Mary Jane, and they want to leave WHO they casted as a surprise in the end or as an after credit scene. I think I like the second theory better.

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It's the best of both worlds for Hollywood. The actress is technically black/a minority while also being more palatable to white people than a dark-skinned sistah.


Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens sucks: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU

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Just because they wanted to diversify the cast, doesn't mean that they are doing better or being "more diverse" by casting people with the darkest skin tone possible.
I agree that there is a tendency for productions to cast in a manner that downplays the typical physical traits of black people (hair, skin tone, and facial features), but you also can't just create and enforce some kind of hierarchy of ethnicity that dictates certain people being "better diverse choices" based on their skin tone.

Zendaya is mixed with black and white, and mixed people are an even SMALLER minority, that receive even less representation in movies. So who is to say that she isn't "diverse" enough for the role?

On a different note, I'm sick and tired of people saying that the diverse casting of this movie is for the sole purpose of diversity itself. This casting is first and foremost for the purpose of accuracy. Perhaps not to the source material, but accurate to the time and place in which this story takes place, where people really are diverse and far more likely to mix and have inter-racial babies.

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Accuracy? That makes no sense to cast people based on where they live. If it has to do with "accuracy", I don't see anything bad about introducing new characters. This diversity thing is very similar to what the LGBT group wanted to do with Star Wars and Captain America. I understand they want to be represented, but it makes zero sense to change around characters that we've seen before and are familiar with their background and story. For example, they wanted to make some new characters such as Poe Dameron gay or bisexual, which makes a lot sense. Since, he is a new character and has provided a hint at his sexuality, (you can't tell me that lip bite that he does when talking to Finn is purely coincidental) it makes a lot of sense to make his sexual preference a main quality of his character.

Since most of us have grown up reading the comics and have a mental image of what each character looks like, it wouldn't make sense to just change their race. It's easier to introduce new characters. As Stan Lee himself said,

"It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that. Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change which has already been established when it's so easy to add new characters the way you want to."

It would make a lot of sense to base their casting decisions on this one quote. Not that I know that Zendaya is not playing MJ, but what's so wrong about casting her in a role that we haven't seen before in live action. For example, White Tiger, her confirmed role, Michelle, or just create a new character.

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Making brand new characters is always great, but there's nothing wrong with swapping the ethnicities of existing characters.
I don't really see how making new characters would be easier though... Using pre-existing characters seems infinitely easier than creating a new one from scratch.

And how does it not make sense to cast people based on when and where their characters live? That's nonsense! Of course it makes sense to take into consideration the location and time of your characters when casting them.
Queens and all of New York City is now an incredibly diverse place where (as I mentioned before) a lot of people mix and have bi-racial babies. How does it not make sense to base your casting on that when your goal is to base your story in a world that is meant to reflect our own?

And no, that lip bite is not coincidental, but that's beside the point.

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Queens and all of New York City is now an incredibly diverse place where a lot of people mix and have bi-racial babies.

With that being said, that doesn't mean the main characters of Spider-man have to change race. You're in Queens, NY, it's diverse, we get it. Is that really the best reason to change things up? Like I said, It's easy to just introduce a new character OR like I mentioned, and you probably ignored that part, use characters that already exist and can be brought to the big screen for the first time. I don't see no reason for Zendaya to be White Tiger, that would be something different that we haven't seen before on the big screen. Another example is Tiffany Espensen who looks like she is playing a character named Cindy. Could they be referencing Cindy Moon/ Silk? That I am excited for because we have never seen Silk in live action before. I could be wrong though, just like I could be wrong about going on this rant. For all we know, Zendaya probably isn't playing MJ.

There is some evidence that contradicts that rumor. They released some photos not too long ago that showed Spidey swinging with a redhead. It could be referencing MJ or it could be just another by-stander. The point i'm trying to make is that it basically debunks the rumors. To me, the photos look like Peter is swinging with a stunt double. Could that mean that they will reveal MJ in the end? Also, most stunt doubles resemble their actor counterparts, so it's likely that they already have an actress casted for MJ and they will reveal the identity at the end or in an after credits scene.

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No one is saying that the cast of Spiderman NEEDS to have their ethnicities changed. Just because the movie takes place in Queens, doesn't mean that they need to change anything. They are not obligated to more accurately reflect the population of New York if they don't want to.

But the simple fact is that this is something that they want to do, and there is nothing wrong with doing so. They don't need to have a reason to change things up, and they don't need to get permission from fans to do it.

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Posts like these is why Scotch was invented.

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why black at all??? MJ is a white redhead afaik. No need to black wash it.

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Exactly. Too bad people claim that, "times have changed" and that changing the race is no big deal. In a way it is and in a way it is not. I agree with changing the race only if the actress playing MJ is really good, other than that I can't really support this. I hate how people think that only african americans are being misrepresented on screen. There's other ethnicities who get no love whatsoever, hell I can name 3 right now. Polynesians, Irish and Italians are rarely seen in big movies like these. There is a lot of whitewashing, I agree, but there is more represenation of let's say for example, Asians. I see a lot of Asians in major tv shows like Gotham and I think there should be more Asians in the movie universes too.

Why should we feel sorry for an ethnicity (African americans) that is way more common in tv shows/movies than a specific race that a character (Mary Jane) represents and is a rarity to see? I don't care if she has been drawn a different way, comic book fans know her for her red hair. You ask a comic book fan, hell even just a person who grew up on the Spidey animated shows, who is the more famous of Spidey's love interests and why does she stand out from the rest? They will immediately tell you, Mary Jane because of her red hair.

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The reason people will likely think you come off as racist is because you wrote a long post all about the race of the actress, then threw in a line saying "oh, but I'm not racist."

Your allegation that it's somehow hypocritical to cast someone who's entire ancestry isn't African is ludicrous, as is your assumption that Zendaya was chosen in an attempt to diversify the film.

Do you run around correcting anyone who says Barack Obama is our first black president, and remind them, "oh, no, his mom was white so he's not really black?" Or do you tell people that they're hypocritical if they say he's the first black president, since he's just as much a white president? I doubt it. I hope not, anyway.

Zendaya was most likely cast because her acting style is appropriate for the role she's in, and has the look they want for the character. Her race, if it came into question at all, is simply something that adds realism to the film. We live in a world where a growing number of people are of mixed lineage, and few people, if any, limit their friendships and romances to people of their own heritage.

If Zendaya is Mary Jane, great. She kind of looks like her, especially if her hair is dyed red. If she's someone else, great. As long as she plays the part well, only a racist gives a *beep* about what continent her father's ancestors originated from.

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Then that settles it! I'm a racist! 😂

The part about writing a whole post about it, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you PC zombies have a right to call other people inaccurate terms and ugly ones to be honest. It doesn't make you any better. I feel like you're worst than these so called racists, following a stupid agenda just so you don't look like the bad guy.

Did I ever claim I wasn't a racist? NO. I simply used an example that pretty much sums up your reasoning and logic, along with many others, that perfectly justifies using the term "racist" and "bigot".

I, like many others don't care about realism, we just want to see comic book accuracy for once. What is so bad about that? Nothing.

I have as much a right to question this as you have to agree with this. The only person who truly knows what's going on with this film and the casting is Jon Watts, so we'll just have to wait and see.

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I don't know if you are or are not racist, but I hope I gave you some insight into why people call you racist. Beyond that, your reply puzzles me. I'm not arguing for any agenda, or in favor of political correctness. I personally think PC is one of the most detrimental and dangerous forces at work in the US today. Nor do I run around calling anyone racist at the drop of a hat. For example, I never called you racist.

To reiterate my opinion-- I don't care about the ancestry of an actor cast in a role. When that actor is playing an established literary character, it's important to pay attention to that character's defining traits. Rarely is a character's racial makeup a part of that. Mary Jane is most notably a free-spirited, party-girl model with bright red hair. Flash Thompson is an insecure bully. Peter Parker is a shy, scrawny nerd. And so on. If a character's defining trait is his race, then naturally it wouldn't make sense to change that in the casting. A white actor portraying Luke Cage would have been ridiculous. A black actor playing Captain America would be dumb. But, say, a Jamaican Peter Parker? Maybe a little surprising, but nothing that alters anything significant in the comic or the story. It wouldn't be any less of a Spider-Man film.

Most of the Marvel heroes being portrayed in film today were created in the pre-Civil Rights era, or just after it, and nearly every hero and supporting character in every comic was white by default. That doesn't reflect the real world, and it would be pretty silly to make a movie about 2016 New York where everyone is white.

Are you racist? I don't know. Are you as upset that the Ancient One is a white female rather than an Asian male as you are that Mary Jane may be played by an actress with an African-American father? If not, why not? And truthfully-- why does it matter one bit what an actor's real-life ancestry is? Can't you see past that and appreciate how they play the part?

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Let's start off with the basics. Am I upset that the Ancient One is a white female instead of an Asian actor? Yes and No. I'm upset that this opportunity of a lifetime that could have gone to an unknown or fairly known Asian actor was instead handed off to Tilda Swinton (who btw, I find her to be a splendid actress, I recommend you check out Hail, Caeser!, she was one of the best parts of that movie). The reason I am wouldn't be upset with her playing The Ancient One is because

1. She is a marvelous (no pun intended!😉) actress and I love it when she shows up in any movie, especially when it's a surprise.
2. I don't have any knowledge on Doctor Strange as far as comic books go, so too me, only because she is a good actres, I agree with this casting. (FYI Ive never read Doctor Strange comics, so it doesn't affect me much)
3. Unlike Tilda Swinton, Zendaya hasn't really proved she has the acting chops. Let me ask you, besides the Shake It Up! show and KC Undercover, where else have you seen Zendaya appear? Any movies? (This also applies to Jacob Batalon who is playing a key character Ned Leeds and Laura Harrier who is playing Liz Allan. I've never seen them before in any movies.)

I am aware that nowadays everything is diverse and we're seeing a lot of people of different races take on different roles. For example, that actress from the Flash show who plays Iris West, originally white in the comics, I believe? (Never seen Flash, just what I hear on the internet). The thing with that is, I get that they are in Queens and everything is diverse, but they have already established that.

You're in Queens, NY and you have people of all different colors and races, it is understandable. Does that automatically mean it makes sense to suddenly switch up the races of established characters simply because of their surroundings? In my opinion, the fact that they are surrounded by a diverse community shouldn't influence the main casting decisions simply because of where they are located. When people imply that idea, that automatically means that just because any story takes place in a certain part of the world, the actors and actresses have to reflect that world.

How many movies have you seen where a group of American tourists visit other locations of the world such as Mexico? Does the fact that the movie is taking place in Mexico mean that more than 75% cast should reflect the culture and cast more hispanic actors instead of white, black or asian actors?

Here's an example: There's a movie that came out last year named Sicario where these FBI agents cross over to Mexico to stop the killings and murders of innocent civilians. The movie has a great cast such as Emily Blunt, Josh Brolin, Benicio Del Toro, Jon Bernthal, Daniel Kaluuya, Jeffrey Donovan and etc.

Since it takes place in Mexico, it's obvious the majority of the film will have Mexican citizens. Here's my point, of the above actors that I mentioned, how many do you think are Hispanic or of Mexican heritage? If I had to make a guess, I would say only 1. Is that really a diverse cast judging by the location that this movie took place in? There's at least one African American actor in there. The movie was EXCELLENT.

If according to you, the cast of Spiderman should reflect the location they are in, how come there wasn't more Hispanic actors in Sicario? As far as MAIN actors,( you know, the main guy that has the chops,) they have only one, Benicio Del Toro. This takes place in Mexico, so why not have more Mexican actors or actors of Hispanic heritage on that roster?

Diversity sometimes works well in some movies, but NOT all movies. This is a superhero/comic book movie, not a propaganda experiment where you just stick in different actors of different races in questionable roles so you can stray away from the actual plot of the film and make it as obvious as possible what subliminal message you're trying to feed the audience. If they really want to make a film to promote diversity, there's always those Tyler Perry movies and the Asian kung fu action movies, don't stick it in an odd place like a Superhero movie. A superhero movie that for the record is already part of a shared universe that hasn't ONCE touched on the subject of diversity.

The same thing goes for people that wanted to change every single character's sexuality. First, make sure it's relevant where you want to spread that message and then we'll talk. Don't just go out and start controversy like past news stories where GLAAD wanted Captain America to have a boyfriend and the Star Wars movies to explore every character's sexuality. What is crazy about that is, They have already been established. I don't mind seeing lgbt characters, but make a new character, don't just randomly select any character you want knowing that there's other people with opinions that have grown up with rich knowledge of these characters, have looked up to them, and all of a sudden they have to accept whatever illogical and out of place changes because one person got offended at what they did or didn't see up on the big screen. That's very selfish and inconsiderate.

That is where I stand on this and I have nothing against LGBT people, love is love, but one thing I just can't make any sense out of is changing whatever you like because some people are too sensitive. If that were the case, I would have started petitions a LONG time ago to completely cancel movies such as Ghostbusters or the new Jumanji.

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In a movie about Americans going to Mexico there's no compelling reason to cast Mexicans as the American visitors which is what you are suggesting. But it would also not make sense to cast Americans as the locals. In the case of Spider-Man, the characters ARE the locals, and it makes sense to cast with that in mind.

As for Zendaya, I've never even heard of her. I assume she must be at least a little famous since she goes by one name. After she was cast I saw a picture of her, and she looks like an attractive young woman, and a good fit for Mary Jane. Can she act? We'll find out.

As for the last half of your post-- I think this is where you are, maybe subconsciously, coming across as bigoted. The race of an actor is meaningless. You see it as a "propaganda experiment" or full of "subliminal messages" when it isn't, and there aren't, because of your bias. It's simply actors being cast in a colorblind fashion because they can play the role at hand.

Spider-Man is the story of a nerdy, scrawny, teenager who lucked into super powers, misused them, and paid the price for it, then devoted his life to fighting crime. His being white, black, gay, straight-- none of that affects the story in the least. The fact that YOU notice race, gender, or sexual orientation, and seeing a non-straight, white, male bothers you, is your own issue. You may fall back on "but that's how it is in the comics" to justify every character being straight and white, but that's an invalid argument. Of course they were because they were written in the pre-Civil Rights era.

If Captain America is written to be gay in a film, that in no way, shape, or form alters anything integral to who Captain America is. If he's written as a communist pedophile, then something's wrong, but as long as he's a moral, patriotic hero who never gives up, etc. then he embodies the character.

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I'm a bigot? Too you, but that's okay. 😀 If I was actually a bigot, I would would be one of those hardcore religious church goers that squirm at the thought of two men or two women loving each other. It is natural and there is nothing wrong with it.

I don't care much for diversity if they're just going to stick it in places that don't really need it or make it look forced. Civil War had Black Panther and the recurring appearance of Falcon and War Machine (Who I think is useless, should've killed him off.) That's what I call proper diversity. And the crazy thing is, people love them! I know I do! It made sense because they look the way they do in the comics.

Imagine if they changed the race of all of them. I know Black Panther was created to represent African Americans, but imagine if they took that away. That would be some utter BS.

Now you know where I and many others come from. To you and others, maybe Mary Jane isn't an important character and the fact that they change her race doesn't matter because not many people care about her, but you're wrong. Just like Black Panther and all the others have their fans, Mary Jane has her fan base as well. This same idea can be applied to Gwen Stacy, Cindy Moon, and Felisha Hardy.

So they were written in the Pre-Civil Rights era, and that is relevant how? These are fictional characters with a specific look and if they want to get this movie right (since it is supposively taking a lot of inspiration from the comics) they should cast people that look like their comic book counterparts. This isn't some equal rights, let's all hold hands project, it's a comic book film. 😁😂

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