As a Couples Therapist... (spoiler) - Before Midnight (2013) Discussion

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

A great question! Simply put, very little good comes from any sentence that starts with "You". When in the heat of an argument, making a comment about another person's character, personality, etc. is almost always seen as confrontational and will only fuel the fire. What Jesse meant with that remark was "Of course we would still be together", but what Celine heard is "You're crazy and I don't want to be with a crazy person!"

In any conversation, it is the responsibility of both the speaker and the listener to make sure that the message sent is the message received and, believe me, we do NOT do this naturally! It's a skill; one that less than half of couples will ever learn and most of those who do will learn it without intention, so they don't even know what they are doing right! The point is to make the main point in a way that the other person is able to hear without feeling attacked. Jesse and Celine's entire 30-minute argument was based on two seemingly conflicting issues.

Jesse: I miss my son and feel frustrated with that. I haven't been a part of his life and I don't feel connected to him. I wish I could spend more time with him so that I can play a larger role in his life, but our circumstances don't allow for that to happen.

Celine: I feel frustrated that I'm not living up to my professional potential. I know what I am capable of and I have so much more to offer. I wish I could have a career that allows me to reach that potential, but our circumstances (amongst others) don't allow for that to happen.

The problem for them was two-fold. A) Neither of them phrased these statements in a way that put the emphasis on the emotion, which usually involves loss, sadness, disappointment, frustration, etc. Objectively, I'd say that Jesse was trying to do that in the car and in the hotel, albeit not very successfully. B) Because the other person was not validating these very understandable emotions, probably because validating might be seen as conceding, which is too threatening, neither of them were willing to listen to what the other person was trying to say.

The psychologist and renowned relationship therapist, Dan Wile, says "Intimacy comes from telling your partner the main things on your mind and hearing from your partner the main thing on his or her mind." Jesse and Celine missed the opportunity, as I suspect they do often. Wile has also pointed out that when we pick a partner, we are effectively picking a set of problems that will remain in the relationship for 10, 20, 50 years. The success of their relationship will be completely dependent on how they can meet both Jesse's need to connect with his son and Celine's need for professional satisfaction. Compromise will be important, but not to the point where they feel like they are giving up too much of their respective dreams. They need to make what I refer to as the transition from politician to diplomat. As long as the mutual desire to maintain the relationship remains the central point, a middle path can be found.

Every couple (mine included!) has to deal with these issues. The content is different for everyone, but the process is the same.

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

Your lady is very wise. The formula I give couples to use is "I feel 'x' when you do 'y'," which is exactly what you're saying. So, well done there! You can also add "because of z" to provide some context, but gauging her mood is important in order to ensure that she is open to hearing your point of view.

It's not so much that relationships have a pre-determined expiration point. It's probably fairer to say that the way in which a couple cope with their perpetual problems may impact the quality and quantity of that relationship. If a person is being accused or blamed for everything that has gone wrong in his or her partner's life, which is what a you-statement will sound like, then that person is going to feel threatened. That will slowly erode the positive feelings that they have towards him/her. That erosion doesn't have to be inevitable, although it may well be if not addressed properly.

I saw that you already read this (thank you for your kind comment, by the way), but anyone else who would like to read what I wrote elsewhere on the role of the threat and attachment systems of the brain can click here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2209418/board/nest/221252191?d=221955653#2 21955653

Unfortunately, what you're talking about is not an urban legend. Every situation that we experience now is perceived through a lens that is shaped gradually in time. Our past experiences form our beliefs about the world, about ourselves, and about others. Those beliefs lead us to develop assumptions, predictions, and rules for living. Now, those are all completely subjective and one partner's beliefs/assumptions/rules are just as valid as the other person's. They are just different. Juggling those two perceptions of the world is the dance that every relationship must face.

So, my interpretation of my wife's comments, and vice versa, might be based on our past interactions as well as my own experiences outside of this relationship. If when I was 9 a teacher or parent told me that I would never amount to anything, I would perceive a comment about my intelligence today very differently than if I had been supported and encouraged by them instead. If my high school girlfriend cheated on me with my best friend when I was 17, I might react differently to my wife's friendship with a male co-worker. That threat system and the ability to self-soothe are ingrained over time.

It's not as if every single interaction needs to be examined in this kind of way. I mean, who has the time to connect every little interaction today with past events? We just have to be mindful of the fact that if our threat system gets active, that's okay; it's a perfectly normal part of being human. We just have to make sure that we learn to manage it so that those past experiences don't dictate the quality of the relationship today.

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

Thanks for the kind words. As you can tell, I'm quite passionate about the material. Most of this information is already available, but if I ever get motivated to write a book myself, I'll be sure to let you know!

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[–] Brommabo 11 years ago

So, as a couples therapist, do you think they still had a chance to make it work? I saw many comments on this board about Celine going to far and their relationship was clearly unhealthy and they should not be together.
I'm not sure I agree but it's hard to tell just from one day.

Anticipating the end of the world is humanity's oldest pastime

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[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

That's a great question with a complicated answer. The short version is 'yes, they have a chance to make it', but that answer comes with some pretty significant conditions.

If left as is, I would bet good money that they will separate within a year or two. Celine will grow more resentful of Jesse and will eventually decide to either leave him or, more likely, will ask him to leave. It doesn't have to end that way, but there needs to be a significant change to how they communicate and deal with their major issues if they stand any chance of staying together.

Think about a relationship a little bit like a bank account. The psychologist, John Gottman, explains this very well and I use this analogy with all of my clients. Every time something nice is done or said, it's like making a deposit into the account and every time something negative is done or said, it's like making a withdrawal. Now, it doesn't take a degree in high finance to see that if your deposits and withdrawals are equal, then there is no savings.

The quality of a relationship is based on the amount of savings over time. If the savings is good, then negative comments might be interpreted as being neutral ('He didn't mean anything by it. He just had a hard day'). If there is little to no savings, then neutral comments are interpreted as negative. So, all previous experiences create a filter through which we view this here-and-now present-day interaction. What makes it slightly more complicated is that both partners will define deposits and withdrawals differently, so it's like they are dealing with different currencies.

This played a very interesting role in Celine and Jesse's big fight and I commend the writers for being so astute. As we are watching them fight, we have the luxury of being objective observers, so we will interpret what they are each saying differently than they will interpret each other. The way that Celine responds to Jesse (what other posts are referring to as 'unhealthy/toxic behaviour') is an indication that their emotional bank account is low. She's quick to interpret 'I miss my son' as 'You need to uproot your life and follow me.' The audience is screaming 'That's NOT what he meant', but her reaction is very realistic if she doesn't think that Jesse has been adding to the emotional bank account.

Another complicating factor in relationships is that a change in positivity does not mean that there will automatically be a change in negativity. So, these two will have to have more deposits AND fewer withdrawals if they're going to make it. If I were working with them as a couple, I would want to generate possible ideas for the positive stuff and teach them communication strategies to help them deal with the negative. With practice and effort on both of their parts, it will be possible for them to stay together, but the way that they are headed now makes me think that the next time we see these two in 9 years, they will probably be catching up after a long separation.

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[–] kenny-164 11 years ago

Kurgan,

I understand in your work that you by its nature focus on the structure of the relationship and interactions within it, but of course you no doubt also understand how outside influences can become significant factors. For example if Celine had an attractive opportunity for professional advancement in, say, the upper Midwest of the US, she might have been less opposed to begin discussing spending more time nearer to Jesse's son. and what is also significant, I think, about that observation is that it is a factor that Jesse has no real control over.

Some other points or questions:

It seems rather obvious that Jesse's apparent case of infidelity "on the road" is an issue between them. Celine on one hand seems to suggest that she is not all that concerned about such an issue, but of course on the other does bring it up, and bring it up again. My question is how much do you think her own sexual history prior to their involvement (I don't recall any indication that she cheated on Jesse after their reuniting in Before Sunset) would affect how seriously she really views that infidelity? And the related question of how significant it is for their prospects going forward?

Another aspect that is apparent to me, as it is for most couples, is the pull or push, or both, of hte couple's own history on their prospects going forward. You talk about the bank, and that is a related concept no doubt. But I think people can choose to focus on parts of their past and ignore others based on what is going on currently.

Another aspect that is noteworthy is I think the rather obviously provocative way in which Celine asserted her lack of appreciation for Jesse's approach to sex. I have noticed several here who give that great significance, and in fact accuse her of all sorts of not nice things for doing so. But I think what was obviously not a nice thing to say is somewhat countered by her obvious pleasure when they first started nuzzling and the rest. In other words her actual behavior was contrary to her words, and it seemed to me (perhaps I was projecting) that Jesse also realized this, which in turn would explain why he did not seem to get too upset when Celine said those not nice words. I guess I have a couple of questions here.

First of all do you think Celine was more inclined to say that precisely because she did not necessarily believe it, and even may have "known" that Jesse did not believe them, either?

Second is how hurtful do you think it is to say something nasty if it is not understood by either of them as being really true? Of course I understand here that often the situation is really ambiguous, and the person being attacked doesn't really know whether the statement is actually not true. It would make them wonder, in other words.

I should also add that I would not expect such a relatively outward directed woman as Celine to have been previously incapable of encouraging Jesse to take a different approach to sex if that is what she wanted. Do you agree?

I think that is probably enough for now. Heh.

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[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

Absolutely! Environmental factors also play a large role. Ideally, if they ever get into problem-solving mode, they will be able to draw up a solution that will meet both of their needs somehow. It's unlikely, but it would be ideal if Celine found a dream job in Illinois or somewhere in the mid-west so that she could be professionally fulfilled while Jesse is closer to Hank. Of course, the details are far from being in their control.

The infidelity issue is a rather difficult one, because neither of them fully admit to or deny the claims that the other makes. Instead, we're left with speculation and vague "don't be crazy", non-committal responses. Considering the level of negativity between them, it's not surprising that they would both be accusational and also offended at being accused. When that emotional bank account is running low, we tend to assume the worst and jump to some rather negative conclusions. What we do know from Before Sunset is that Celine has a tendency to sabotage her own relationships and Jesse was unfaithful to, and eventually left, his wife. That he left her for Celine (the lost love of his life) isn't as important as the fact that he left - and as such can't ever really be trusted.

You're exactly right about the push/pull idea, although that distorted view of the past isn't necessarily something that people do knowingly. If things are going poorly in a relationship, the partners' memory of the past will become biased and the good parts are edited out. When I assess a couple and ask them to tell me about their relationship history, I don't just listen to the story, but I listen for HOW they tell the story. Are they looking at each other? Is there a team-based story-telling? Do they remember the good feelings and events (especially around the wedding day!) or just the negative ones (e.g. 'I had a bad feeling when we got married, and I didn't listen to it!'). Every wedding day has pleasant moments and it is interesting when people just completely block those memories out.

This is the very idea of what's behind Celine's seemingly incongruous reaction to Jesse's love-making. When she's in 'attachment mode' she is possibly enjoying the moment, or at least pretending to for his sake, but when the argument starts and she gets into 'threat' mode, then the pleasant memories are clouded by the negative and she uses that as an attack. It's important here to point out that as human beings, we are wired to be more sensitive to the negative than to the positive and we have a strong tendency to remember what we don't like or when things went poorly than to remember the good. There are evolutionary reasons for this that, unfortunately, tend to work against us now rather than for us.

Having said that, you're exactly right! Saying things that we don't mean in order to hurt the other person is a rather horrific tactic, because all we have are words to express ourselves and if we use those words as weapons, the partner is not going to be able to tell the 'truth' from the 'fabricated attack'. Say what you mean and mean what you say! Telling someone that you love them (when things are going well) and then that you don't love them (when things aren't going well) sends mixed messages that only lead to doubt. Because we are prone to focus on the negative in order to protect ourselves, we'll tend to believe the more hurtful comment, because we would rather assume the negative. I often say that the nice thing about being a pessimist is that all of your surprises are pleasant. Of course, I then follow up that line with a list of the consequences of being a pessimist.

Personally, I have a theory about their views on sex and the likelihood of infidelity. I say 'personally', because if I were seeing them professionally, I wouldn't make such assumptions. Short version: Jesse has been faithful, but Celine hasn't.

It's my opinion, and it is just an opinion, that Jesse is devoted to Celine, perhaps even to a fault. After pining for her for years he wrote their story in the hopes that its publication would lead him to her. Against the odds, it did! He then left his marriage for the 'one that got away' and moved his life across the ocean and away from his son. Despite the negative reaction that he received from Celine, I don't think that Jesse resents her at all for taking him away. She is the love of his life (present tense) and while he may 'make love to [other women] with his eyes', I think he puts Celine on a pedestal and wouldn't act on an opportunity to cheat.

I also think that Celine knows that and is rather uncomfortable being idolized like that. She has never really viewed Jesse in the way that he views her. I got the impression from Sunset that she was sad that she had to miss their post-Sunrise rendezvous, but she moved on with her life. She had other relationships, was 'in love' with other men, and was more sexually expressive than Jesse. She was glad that they reconnected, but then started to feel confined by his devotion; followed by the birth of the twins and the erosion of her professional identity. She's too strong and independent a character to be a stay-at-home housewife and is more open to a non-monogamous relationship, because that was her attitude for much of her 20's.

The interesting thing, though, is how uncomfortable she is at the thought that Jesse has been with someone else. I suspect that she knows that he is more into her than she is into him and that has given her a sense of control. His infidelity would be more of a threat, then, than hers. Whether or not she tried to convince Jesse to be more sexually open is hard to say. I think you could be correct that she might have tried to encourage him - or at least to let him know where she stood - but I don't think Jesse would ever have taken her up on it.

Thanks for the questions. I hope that that was useful. Feel free to keep them coming!

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[–] kenny-164 11 years ago

kurgan,

Thank you for your response, and I do have some follow up.

First of all as I alluded to before it really struck me how Jesse did not seem to react much to those nasty words Celine said about their sex life, and how those words did not fit with her own behavior a few minutes before. I would think from that we are led to imagine that he might be somewhat used to them, she having said that sort of thing, meaning a negative statement that is not true, before. Even if untrue, they can be and usually are corrosive, though. But in regard to the specifics of this couple, to compare how most would react if one spouse said them, it was notable how Jesse's reaction was muted.

I am not sure I am comfortable agreeing that Celine should be viewed as less invested in their relationship. One might consider whether Jesse leaving his wife for Celine was strong evidence of such "investment" on his part, except that he was not happy with that marriage. Not to digress, but I don't know that either Sunset or Midnight clarify the extent to which he was so unhappy because he was pining away for Celine, or really had to do with his ex-wife on her own terms shall we say. And while he moved to Paris, that fit with his situation. He certainly had good reasons to leave Chicago, notwithstanding his son still living there. And his career was more transportable than many others have.

But one also must acknowledge as you point out that he wrote the book, and did the book tour and all that. I dunno... I wonder how much his doing that was to find out what happened to Celine, as compared to really hoping he would not only find her but end up with her. No doubt that dynamic was greatly affected by his unhappy marriage, although of course it is not difficult to imagine his marriage might have been affected by his pining away for Celine. In short I assume the filmmakers left these complex questions far from completely answered in order for viewers to ponder the possibilities.

Finally, I must comment on this sentence, where you say Celine is "too strong and independent a character to be a stay-at-home housewife and is more open to a non-monogamous relationship, because that was her attitude for much of her 20's."

Hm. Putting aside the connection you impute between strong and independent on one hand and not being a housewife, which I expect many housewives would object to, did you really mean to suggest that strong and independent people are "more open to" cheating? After all, many people believe those who cheat are weak, not strong. And independent in this context seems rather problematic. It is either a term one uses to describe behavior, in a sort of circular sense where being non-monogamous IS being independent, or instead is meant to mean the ability to make choices on one's own, which would not prevent one from choosing monogamy.

Another issue is the last phrase, which I take to mean that Celine's apparent romantic history in her twenties would be determinative of her behavior later, upon entering a monogamous relationship. But certainly people who sleep around in their twenties are capable of entering into committed relationships later.

Well, I will agree that Celine's personality might suggest that she might have some greater tendency toward infidelity than other types. But I am not sure how much beyond a greater tendency I would be willing to go.

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[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

I think you're right. It looks like Jesse has both heard these words before and has started to brush them off with a 'you're just saying that to hurt me' response. Unfortunately for them both, that just means that Celine's legitimate concerns about their sex life will not be addressed. She may genuinely want more excitement or flair, and that's the conversation that they are meant to have, but when she uses words as weapons, the true message gets lost.

You may be right about Jesse's investment and motives. I just get the impression that he idealised her for the 9 years that they were apart, which as you said, may have affected his marriage, while she seemed to have accepted the fact that they missed their opportunity and got on with her life. They both may have asked 'what if' if they never saw each other again, but I don't know if Celine would have regretted the lost opportunity as much as Jesse would have. He sought her out; she moved on.

Allow me to back up for a second and rephrase, because I didn't mean to imply that 'strong and independent' and 'housewife' are mutually exclusive. They're not, but I can see how what I said could be interpreted that way. Perhaps a better way of stating it would be to say that Celine seems to have a strong professional identity, which has been compromised as a result of the birth of her daughters and that has been challenging for her. There is a spectrum along which people may fall (not just women) as to how comfortable they are with taking time away from their careers in order to raise a family. I get the sense that Celine is further along the 'uncomfortable' end of that spectrum than others may be. I use the word 'independent' to allude to that, because in a somewhat simplistic way a career is something that we pursue for ourselves as individuals. It's not just about the pay cheque. The satisfaction that we get for a job well done and how we spend the hours from 9 to 5 (or whenever) is 'my time' as opposed to 'family time'. Again, we all fall at different points along the spectrum on how important having that time is for us. Celine is torn. She loves her family, but she also misses her professional life.

On the issue of infidelity, again, I'll back up here. This one is particularly complicated, so I'll try again. First of all, I'll separate 'strong/weak' people from 'independent' people, because my emphasis here is on the latter. People who have a sense of 'I-ness' over 'we-ness' may be more likely to engage in extra-marital affairs, because they may be more willing to focus on the short-term gains that come with novel sexual experiences, and consider it 'just one of those things,' instead of the long-term cost that it may have on the relationship if the partner found out about it. Again, we're talking about a spectrum and not in absolutes. We are also talking about likelihood and probability, not guarantees. There are plenty of 'I-minded' people who do not cheat, because doing so could risk the benefits that they get from their relationship.

As I said earlier, I get the sense (and it is only my interpretation) that Celine is more I-centred when it comes to their relationship than Jesse is. That's not to say that she doesn't love him or their family, but I can see her being more comfortable having a sexual experience outside of her marriage. I don't think she would see it as 'cheating' as much as 'having a (fun? meaningful? connecting? exciting?) experience that didn't involve Jesse.' Sex is not as sacrosanct for her as it might be for him. That's also what I meant when alluding to her twenties. Sure, people can change their behaviour regarding sex, but that would depend on their philosophy of sex. If it's 'just one of those things,' then it's less likely to change.

If, on the other hand, Jesse did sleep with that other woman, I think that he would view at as cheating and would feel more remorse. That was perhaps viewed as a moment of 'weakness' instead of independent experience. Of course, he may dismiss his guilt if he thinks that Celine has a double-standard around sex.

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[–] kenny-164 11 years ago

Kurgan,

Thanks for the clarifications. After reviewing them, I essentially agree with all you said with one minor exception. I agree Celine can and probably should be seen as more concerned with her relative position in the relationship, and she would probably say so herself.

As for cheating, you said she would be more comfortable with it IF it happened, which I also agree with for the very reasons you mentioned. I would only point out here for further clarification that Jesse may still be equally likely to cheat even if he were not comfortable with it after the fact, merely because over the course of their relationship he apparently has had more opportunities to do so.

The one quibble I have is your focus on Jesse seeking Celine out, which she concededly did not do respecting him. Two things, one simple and factual, the other more a sort of existential consideration. The first is, and I do not know the answer here, but Jesse was married in that period, and did Celine know that? If she did, she had a disincentive to seek him out which he would not have had. But that's not the main thing, because I don't recall if Celine knew that in the period before Before Sunset.

The other is more a general observation, and concerns the French term cherchez la femme, or les femmes if you prefer! (Ftr I am not referring to the sense of the phrase used in the Dumas novel and those of its type - meaning looking ofr a motive, or a clue as to the identity of some wrongdoer. I am talking about the process itself. Looking, searching.) But seriously the point is that some, I would say particularly men, derive motivation from the search itself. No, I am not talking about something pathological where the person in question only wants something or someone until they have it, and then the value declines. It is more a question of racial memory, of the role men more usually have in searching out a potential love/sex partner. The search itself is part of the attraction of the whole concept.

Add in in Jesse's case his unhappiness with his wife, and the search becomes not merely a search for Celine but also for a possible answer to what to do about his marriage.

Would Jesse have written the book, gone to the book show in Paris, if he had been happy in his marriage? I think the answer is that he obviously would have been less likely to do so.

Now of course as you point out part of his unhappiness may well have been based in some, even large, part on his pining away for Celine. One of the more interesting aspects of the whole trilogy, to me, anyway, is this very dynamic. Let me explain.

In Before Sunset we see enough that we can surmise Jesse, when he went back to the US after Before Sunrise, felt at first that he most likely had lost any realistic opportunity of being with Celine. In fact having seen her only one day, and with all the due deference to love at first sight (which I do believe is real), he does not literally know that Celine would in fact be "right" for him. So he goes back to the US with no doubt very fond thoughts and feelings about Celine, but her practical unavailability.

He then meets his first wife. She's attractive enough for him to marry her. And he does. Did he do so, going through that process, all the while he would lie in bed at night thinking about Celine? Hm. If he did, if he was thinking so much about Celine, and went ahead and married his first wife, that is I think a rather troubling set of circumstances. But that sort of thing I am sure happens, perhaps somewhat frequently. After all not all who suffer from an unrequited love for one, for whatever reason (refusal, absence, whatever reason), end up not with anyone else. It's not even imo appropriate to call such ensuing relationships examples of "settling". Deciding to do so can be a very rational decision.

And one reason it can be very rational is that perhaps over time the new relationship can develop into a very strong one, even if fond memories of a former lover continue.

But that seems not to have happened in Jesse's case. Why?

Imo I think Jesse's marriage failed because of some dysfunction in the relationship between him and his wife, not because he was pining away for Celine.

As it failed he took up consideration of searching for Celine, and as I mentioned in part because such search would perhaps provide him with an answer what to do about his marriage. He also came up with a practical idea for finding Celine, one I assume he had not considered, or felt impractical, before.

Anyway I did not mean to go on too long here, but at least I hope I made sense. Let me know if you have any thoughts or comments on this.

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[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

I'm glad to find the overlap with our opinions on the cheating scenario. You raise an interesting point about Jesse's opportunities to cheat and I would be intrigued to know whether or not he would rise to the temptation if it were in front of him. Perhaps they'll go into more detail on that in the next one!

Regarding the period before Sunrise and Sunset there are a couple of important points that could be made here. First, I think about which of the two of them stood on that platform 6 months after the fact and I strongly believe that Jesse thought about her everyday in the lead up to their planned rendezvous, probably to the point of planning a hypothetical life with Celine in his own head during that period. He showed that he was serious and dedicated and I can't even imagine the immense pain that he would have felt when he finally realised that she wasn't coming. After a 6-month build-up with no way of contacting her, he must have built up a romanticised version of her and been devastated.

I would also go so far as to say that Celine may have done the same thing in those 6 months, but they would have gone down very different paths in the week of the rendezvous. Jesse had no idea why she didn't show. She may have been delayed, she may have been dead, she may have decided that it wasn't worth the trip. He took action and showed his colours be showing up. He would have continued to romanticise 'what if?' for months, if not years, afterwards, because he didn't get any closure. He never knew why she never showed. Celine, on the other hand, had a very good reason not to be there, despite how much she may have wanted to. Her grandmother died! What could she do? Knowing the reason why she couldn't go meant that she was able to rationalise it in her mind, compartmentalise that night in Vienna, and move on with her life. Sure, she might have the occasional 'what if?' as well, but that thought wouldn't have lasted long, because she had a valid reason why it didn't. She DID have closure in that sense, so it would have been significantly easier to move on. In a nutshell, I think that that pivotal moment explains why I think that Jesse is more into Celine than she is to him. He was invested years before Paris. Celine was the 'mysterious dreamgirl'; Jesse was 'some guy with whom I have a great night that time.'

I don't recall if Jesse said how much time had past before he met and married his wife, but I have a feeling that he did settle. I think you're right that people do rationalise the need to move on and can have productive relationships with other people, but he never ever forgot her. He even thought of Celine on his wedding day (regardless of whether or not that was her in NYC). He took some advice from Luther Vandross: "If you can't be with the one you love, then love the one you're with." If the alternative is a life alone, then settling for second best isn't so bad.

This may or may not have had an impact on his marriage. If he couldn't let go of the memory, then that may have amplified any problems that would otherwise have been dealt with. It would have been hard for her to compete with that ghost of a memory. The problem with romanticising about someone is that we never consider their flaws. "If I was with her WE wouldn't have this problem." That may be factually accurate, but of course with someone else, you would have other problems, which again is why Midnight is fantastically realistic!! Of course, his wife may well be the selfish, conniving, alcoholic that Celine makes her out to be, in which case a comparison to the 'ideal' wouldn't have made much difference.

Regarding your point, I don't see how Celine could have known whether Jesse was married. Like I said above, I just think she had her closure, processed her disappointment and moved on with her life.

For men, the search and hunt really can be a part of the fun and whether being inspired to right the book to find Celine was a cause or effect of his failing marriage is just a detail in that. In either case, I think you're right; success on that front could have provided him with an excuse to close the door on his troubled marriage.

I think I've addressed all of the points that I wanted to. Comments are always welcome.

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[–] siobanphotogirl 11 years ago

During the conversations in the car and through the town, Jesse and Celine seem very happy together. An ideal couple. They still seem like very good friends. In the hotel room, though, reality sets in and we see what makes them both tick.
I think Celine lays the ground work for a lot of the dysfunction.
I could tell that Jesse merely wanted her to at least talk about the idea of moving to America and that, at least, would validate his feeling disconnected from his son. The very idea of moving made her hostile towards him.

The whole movie, I was wondering if Jesse would ever mention that his son didn't even turn around to look at him before disappearing around the corner after going through security. That had to hurt and I was totally expecting him to bring it up but he never mentioned it.

Celine is a drama queen.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] reactoro 11 years ago

Agreed. This film was so real and profound in its realism I was just blown away. I really hope it gets its multiple nods in terms of Oscar nominations. AMAZING film.

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[–] gabypanama 11 years ago

Considering that most or all of your patients are adults (I guess?) why female breasts in a scene are enough reason not to recommend it to them if the message or example the scene shows is pretty good? Just wondering...you see naked models in art schools, then why not when teaching a lesson about human relationships?

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[–] samelie81 11 years ago

I was thinking the same thing! How are breasts in any way offensive?

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[–] Kurgan-4 11 years ago

I wish it were that simple. Comfortability with nudity is very subjective and I work with a number of people who would feel uncomfortable with it. It's not my place to judge that or to try and change them; instead I have to respect their own boundaries and not push my view of the world on to them. As I said in the original post, though, I still might recommend it. I just have to add the caveat that it starts with some harmless skin.

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[–] Conquistadores 11 years ago

Thanks so much for your comments. I am thankful that there are people like you working on saving couples (or splitting them if they really need to). I haven't read all the comments and replies, but here goes what I think:

Some people say this is an awful movie, but I don't think it is. I even think the ending is good. The final scene is so full of hope for them! Most couples have bad days like this and actually, the way they "accuse" each other shows us how couples should not tackle their problems. Céline, in particular, is being a bit too agressive but I guess it is because she has been keeping quiet too many years about Jesse's selfishness and suddenly exploded when she had some time to (the girls were not around, finally!). But... as long as BOTH of them want to keep improving their relationship and do make their best effort to make it work, there is hope and things should turn out ok.

I just hope both of them can resolve their issues (both are frustrated) and stick together, because, like I said, both of them still love each other.

It is just sad how nowadays most couples split for stupid things. People should not give up so easily. Only if, and only if you have tried everything that was in your hands to save a relationship or the other party does not love you anymore, then ok, get a divorce. Otherwise, don't be lazy and work on it. Growing up, changing, being mature has never been easy, but people should try doing it because it is rewarding once you accomplish it.

Peace and love for everyone!

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] clickbait 10 years ago

wow...this thread is great! best thread ive ever read on imdb for sure and it gave me alot more to think of about their conversations 

~If the realistic details fails, the movie fails~

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[–] kslcutter 10 years ago

I have nothing to add to this wonderful thread other than thank you
Kurgan-4. A very informative and thought provoking post. Now, with a deeper understanding of what is going on in this movie, I am now rating it a 7 instead of 5. Thanks again. :)

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