First of all I'm not an expert in history or linguistics..
The question I always ask myself when watching historical movies/series is, how did they communicate actually?
I mean in Marco Polo they speak mostly english with each other. But how was it really? was english a common language already or did they always had a translator during audiences? What was the language different cultures could communicate with? And how usual was it that people were able to speak it? A peasant, I suggest, would speak their mothertongue. Did people with a higher status learn "english" or whatever language or was there a scholar or something? Then again I think, if there was only a scholar to translate... could you trust them?
I find it difficult to imagine how it worked, but maybe it wasnt as difficult as I think?
sigrath-1 said [you know, I must preserve this, in case you delete your post]
First of all I'm not an expert in history or linguistics..
The question I always ask myself when watching historical movies/series is, how did they communicate actually?
I mean in Marco Polo they speak mostly english with each other. But how was it really? was english a common language already or did they always had a translator during audiences? What was the language different cultures could communicate with? And how usual was it that people were able to speak it? A peasant, I suggest, would speak their mothertongue. Did people with a higher status learn "english" or whatever language or was there a scholar or something? Then again I think, if there was only a scholar to translate... could you trust them?
I find it difficult to imagine how it worked, but maybe it wasnt as difficult as I think?
What? Are you kidding? Please tell me that you are, otherwise this will take the cake for the most idiotic post I've ever read on IMDb, and that's saying something!
Do you really think that the historical characters spoke ENGLISH??? Modern English, to boot???
OK, let's assume you are NOT kidding, and you just really are this stupid, so I'll oblige and reply. If you ARE kidding (I can't imagine you aren't) then the joke is on me, but so be it.
For your information, the characters are speaking English because this is a MOVIE and the creators want you to understand what the characters are saying. This show by the way has many international versions, each one in the language of the country where it's being shown (French, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.) - see the end credits, and you'll see the dubbing voice actors credited there, for each language.
No, NONE of the characters in real life spoke English, and no, English was NOT a lingua franca there. Actually, Marco Polo was one of the first Westerners to ever visit China and Mongolia, and he was Italian (more specifically, Venetian), so how do you figure these people would be speaking English???
Now, in real life, do you want to guess what the Mongols spoke?
Let's do a multiple choice test for you:
a) Mongolian b) Modern English c) Klingon d) Esperanto
In your place, I'd pick a). It's a pretty good bet. After all, they are Mongols. They probably spoke, erm, Mongolian. What a coincidence, huh? Who would have guessed that the Mongols spoke Mongolian? But yeah, they kind of did.
And yes, of course, for court audiences, if the person soliciting the audience didn't speak the emperor's tongue, interpreters would be used.
Real life Marco Polo had Italian (actually, in its Venetian variant) as his native tongue. He spoke four more, including Mongol and Chinese. After all, he lived in Asia for 24 years. Time enough to learn, and he was a smart fellow.
Now, I know you must be kidding, so sorry for making a fool of myself by replying. If you aren't kidding, though, then *you* are a fool.
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Better a fool then a full-blown condescending ass-troll (which you very much are). How about you back up, attempt to put on some semblance of dignity, and try again. I predict you won't, but at least an attempt is now made to save your measly online soul.
maybe you cannot read properly, I asked what the actual language different cultures communicated with was... Of course they speak english, because it's a series. But thanks for the effort you put in your post.
LOL, too late to try to dodge it. You asked if English was wide-spread in ancient Mongolia/China, of all places...
Here, your words, not mine:
But how was it really? was english a common language already
Like I said, the most stupid post I've read on IMDb.
Not even today, in the 21st century, English is wide-spread in Mongolia and China (except Hong-Kong), much less in the 13th century. I think it's safe to say that not a single person spoke English in Mongolia at that time. They probably didn't even know that the language existed.
Your ignorance is appalling.
If you weren't completely mistaken about this and were just interested in learning about communication in ancient times you wouldn't have said this:
I mean in Marco Polo they speak mostly english with each other.
How is a TV show done in English in the 21st century relevant to your question? Why would it matter if "in Marco Polo" (sic) they spoke whatever language, for your question?
Sorry, but your post was incredibly stupid, no matter how you want to twist it now.
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Maybe my words were not chosen correctly enough to make my point. English is not my mother language and it is sometimes hard for me to find the right words. It's true, I wrote "was english a common language already", but later I said "What was the language different cultures could communicate with?" and "Did people with a higher status learn "english" or whatever language " to clarify that I was not actually thinking they were speaking english, but ok, maybe I did not clarify it with that. Sorry for that.
"I mean in Marco Polo they speak english with each other" was like an introduction. Of course in this TV show they speak all english and so there are no communication problems to be seen. But that has not been the case in reality, right? so how did they communicate actually. That was my actual intention of the post.
But ok, maybe my post is the worst and most stupid post on imdb or even the whole internet, cause no one else in the world ever made a dumb post. I got it. Thank you.
Aww, OK, now I feel bad. I was incredibly aggressive, and you didn't deserve it. Sorry.
No, your post wasn't the dumbest post on the Internet. *Mine* was the rudest post on the Internet.
Why did I do this? I'm usually not like this.
I was just snappy and having a bad day. A cop pulled me over because I burned a red light... I was incredibly irritated that day. It's no excuse for my bad behavior, but maybe letting you know about it is a way to make amends.
Then, instead of just recognizing that I was out of line, I kept going. Not good. I apologize.
When I said something about that it must have been quite a challenge to learn mongolian and you replied something like "yes for people like you!!!" ... I was just thinking "yes you idiot, it's so hard to communicate right now even in english :'''( " hahaha
But your apology is a relieve to me right now :) I accept it. Everyone has a bad day sometimes and mankind is like that. Unfortunately we try to release our anger and bad feelings on other people. But it's a good thing, that you realized it. I'm happy for you :) some people won't realize it.
But maybe back to my question. In case of Marco Polo, he was the one that adapted to the Mongolians. But if we just imagine a fictive (?) person who came to Monoglia, but not speaking mongolian, it must have been hard to communicate. Even if there was a translator in the court, if you were a "nothing" the translator could just lie about what you said actually. Maybe you would not even be heard in court, or?
The point is, it's so... How do I say it... I would not like to be foreigner in those days :D today you can travel and in most countries (if you are not in a little province) someone will speak english.
Good that you've accepted my apology, so hopefully no hard feelings.
Yes, clearly life was much tougher those days. Not only there wasn't an easy way to communicate with foreigners, but travel took years, and risk of death by various causes was constant.
It's kind of amazing that adventurers like Marco Polo were willing to risk it all to visit foreign lands.
I was incredibly aggressive, and you didn't deserve it. Sorry.
instead of just recognizing that I was out of line, I kept going. Not good. I apologize.
Wow! Your first post in this thread is the kind of post seen often on the IMDb boards (sadly) but this one is an incredibly rare gem. A heart felt apology without reservation is truly amazing to read. Kudos to you.
I am actually encouraged a bit about humanity right now. (I am being serious/sincere, in case anyone thinks that I am being sarcastic.)
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Nothingtodotoday, this is a very rude and facetious reply from someone who obviously does not comprehend what he/she reads. When Sigrath referred to "English" she used quotation marks which indicates that we know they are not really speaking English other than so the English speaking audience can follow. The question was what language did they communicate in and is a valid one. English as we know it today did not exist and none of us would understand the mixture of Anglo Saxon and Norman French spoken in the 12th century. Given the world wide hostility to outsiders found in most cultures, effective communication would have been essential. When Marco Polo first arrived in the far east he would not have been speaking much Chinese or Mongolian. Presumably he found someone who could help him learn the basics, and that is what they would have used until he became more familiar. Perhaps it was the local orphan or lover of the hitherto unknown West who always seems to attach himself to foreigners in American films.
The question I always ask myself when watching historical movies/series is, how did they communicate actually?
That requires a lengthy answer.
To the rest of your post first, in short, nobody between modern Italy and Modern China spoke a word of English (unless some Englishman had managed to get himself lost somewhere during a crusade).
The "common" language of the time (in Europe) was Latin (in the show they often refer to Marco Polo as "Latin"). Marco Polo himself spoke Venetian, which is a variant of Italian (a successor to the Latin language). He then picked up multiple other languages on his journey, most important of them being Mongolian.
As for English being a "common language", as mentioned, Latin was the language of foreign relations and diplomatic envoys until the 17th century, where French took over. English only emerged after the second world war, with the rise of the US. So outside of the British colonies, there was probably very little English spoken.
Hell, even inside England, the royalty and nobility spoke French and Latin, only the peasants spoke English in the 1300's (the timeline of Marco Polo) :)
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That's very interessting. I was thinking of Latin, but was not sure. Especially because I don't know who was able to learn Latin. As I think it was a privilege for scholars or monks, wasnt it?
So what you say is, that royals (and of course scholars/monks) spoke Latin, right?
So in case of Marco Polo, Marco Polo was the one who learned a foreign language to communicate with the Monogolians for example. That must have been quite a challenge, I guess.
So in case of Marco Polo, Marco Polo was the one who learned a foreign language to communicate with the Monogolians for example.
No kidding. Now you've figured this out? What do you think is more likely - that one person visiting a country with hundreds of thousands of people - and the visitor lived there for 24 years - learns the local language, or suddenly all those hundreds of thousands of people are the ones who learn *his* language?
How long did it take for you to reach the brilliant conclusion that Marco Polo was the one who learned Mongolian, rather than all the Mongolians learning Venetian? LOL, you're too funny.
That must have been quite a challenge
For people like you, I guess. Others who aren't so dumb learn a second language all the time (or more than a second one), especially when they live in a foreign country for 24 years.
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Dude...you are such a douche. Get off your f*(*g high horse and stop criticizing people. Do you not realize there are young folks on here that sometimes post innocent or naive questions? My daughter is 13 and she has an account. Does it give you some kind of Schadenfreude ego boost to belittle others? Besides....with your lack of eloquence, nescient syntax and poor grammar, it's pretty obvious that you're kind of a dim bulb yourself cupcake.
So in the future, keep your snide and patronizing comments to yourself you POS troll.
That's very interessting. I was thinking of Latin, but was not sure. Especially because I don't know who was able to learn Latin. As I think it was a privilege for scholars or monks, wasnt it?
I would imagine that Latin became a common language because of the Romans, who occupied most of Europe for a considerable amount of time (the eastern Roman Empire still existed in Macro Polo's timeline, although the west had fallen a thousand years earlier). The clergy especially spoke Latin, yes, which probably upheld it as a "common" language even though the Romans had left. The nobility, or upper class, spoke French and/or Latin as well.
So in case of Marco Polo, Marco Polo was the one who learned a foreign language to communicate with the Monogolians for example.
Yes, going the other way would have been impossible :)
That must have been quite a challenge, I guess.
Without question, seeing the number of languages he must have come across on his journeys. But he was by all accounts keen, intelligent and had a great hunger for learning, which im sure helped a lot.
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By the way, you are also wrong about Latin being a lingua franca for the Mongolian court and the Song dynasty. It didn't reach Mongolia or China. Here is the maximum extent it reached, at the peak of the Roman empire:
The fact that Kublai Khan referred to Marco Polo as "Latin" does not mean that the language was spoken by the court officials. It was more like a derogatory term, to underline his status as a foreigner. It's akin to calling today in the United States an immigrant from South America, Latin-American or Hispanic. It doesn't mean that the person calling such individual with this label speaks Spanish him/herself. You are assuming too much when you speculate that Latin was widespread among the Mongolian elite.
Marco Polo's father was the *first* European that Kublai Khan *ever* met. In this circumstance, who exactly do you suppose taught Latin to Kublai Khan's court???
No, the language in that court was Mongolian, period. Marco Polo's father, uncle, and himself, learned Mongolian, not the other way around. I'd assume that other communication difficulties were handled by interpreters. Remember, the court had officials from other countries, such as an Arab.
Marco Polo's father and uncle, being by profession itinerant merchants, were proficient in foreign languages so that they would be able to deal with the locals, therefore the locals didn't really need to learn their language (not even Latin but Venetian).
Kublai Kahn in real life asked Marco Polo's father to bring him 100 scholars from Europe, versed in the seven arts (including astronomy, math, etc.). It seems like he wanted to learn; this however was never accomplished. So, no, chances are that the Mongolian court was monolingual in Mongolian.
By the way, you are also wrong about Latin being a lingua franca for the Mongolian court and the Song dynasty. It didn't reach Mongolia or China. Here is the maximum extent it reached, at the peak of the Roman empire:
err, was that directed at me ? I said, and i quote "The "common" language of the time (in Europe) was Latin". Of course they didn't speak Latin in China, why on earth would they ?
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Exactly. Thanks for clarifying. That's also what I've been saying, but your posts would give to a less informed reader the impression that Latin was also spoken in the court of Kublai Khan (not that your posts would give the impression that it was spoken by the Mongolian population as well, but the way you said it, it might be misinterpreted by a reader that court officials, envoys, diplomats, or the royalty in the Mongolian court also spoke Latin as a way to communicate with foreigners, when like you clarified now and I've been saying, this wouldn't be factual.
If you read the posts authored by the OP, she seems to have gotten from your answer that "ah, Latin, then!" Here, look at what the OP said in reaction to your post:
So what you say is, that royals (and of course scholars/monks) spoke Latin, right?
Nope.
Language spoken in the court of Kublai Khan *and* by his population: Mongolian. Period. Full stop. At best, some Chinese languages, although proud like the Mongolians were, I doubt they'd be willing to be officiating in the language of the people they were trying to conquer (and succeeded in conquering, since Kublai Khan was able to take over the entirety of China, destroy the Song dynasty, and become Emperor of China and founder of the Yuan dynasty).
Royals in Europe, yes. In Mongolia? LOL LOL LOL
See now, why I reacted to the OP the way I did?
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Yes, i see what you mean, and apologize for the poorly chosen wording on my part. I presumed (somewhat foolishly, i admit) that people understood that i spoke about Europe when talking about the Clergy, etc (especially since the religious wars of the Crusades shows the general limits of Christian influence at the time).
I should have clarified that more often :)
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After I wrote "So in case of Marco Polo, Marco Polo was the one who learned a foreign language to communicate with the Monogolians " , because I understood that the Mongolians did not speak Latin.
Look, reading you correctly, and trying honestly to understand, I think that there was no need at all of trolling you. Your question was logical and I myself have thought about it many times.
Now to the answer:
Latin was lingua franca, yes, but in Marco Polo's time, around 1300, Latin was already really mixed with vernacular dialects, in his case Venetian. Italian, as such, didn't exist as you would call it today. For the argument's sake, let's say he spoke Latin, which he could have at least understood -and spoken- reasonably well.
Traveling to the East, the next lingua franca would have been Greek, which was the laanguage of the Byzantine Empire (During the time of the Hellenistic civilization and Roman Empire, the lingua francas were Koine Greek and Latin. During the Middle Ages, the lingua franca was Greek in parts of Europe, Middle East and Northern Africa where the Byzantine Empire held hegemony, and Latin was primarily used in the rest of Europe).
After that, Arabic would have been used (Arabic, the native language of the Arabs, who originally came from the Arabian Peninsula, became the lingua franca of the Islamic (Arab) Empire (from CE 733 – 1492), which at its greatest extent included the borders of China and Northern India, Central Asia, Persia, Asia Minor, the Middle East, North Africa, Spain and Portugal).
Going further East, Marco would have found necessary use Persian and finally Chinese. The Mongolians had, for sure somebody who spoke the latter (Until the early 20th century, Classical Chinese served as both the written lingua franca and the diplomatic language in Far East Asia including China, Mongolia, Korea, Japan, the Ryūkyū Kingdom, and Vietnam. In the early 20th century, vernacular written Chinese replaced Classical Chinese within China as both the written and spoken lingua franca for speakers of different Chinese dialects, and because of the falling power and cultural influence of China in East Asia, English has since replaced Classical Chinese as the lingua franca in East Asia).
Please remember that the members of Marco Polo's family were merchants and, as such, were proficient in finding people who could mediate. Mostly, when traveling, merchants used native people to speak for them and translate. That's the case even to this day. Later on, if you plan on staying, you can learn the local language. But Marco Polo and his family certainly had people that could do the talking for them more often than not!
Greek, correct. It had been the Lingua Franca of most of the Mediterranean and the Near East. Greek trading culture expanded with Alexander and the later Egyptians. Even during the Roman Empire, Greek was the language spoken in the East - which included the Veneto area. Until the Latin Vulgate, the New Testament was written originally in Greek also which would have formed the basiis of reading lessons. Orthodox Christianity also made deep inroads to the East in particular along the different kahnates. Along the Silk Road, Greek was the language of western commerce. Greek influence stretched all the way to Spain and the Canaries. The Spanish word gringo, originally meant Greek.
Venice was a Byzantine vassal state for many years, and one of Constantinople's main trading partners. So it is not surprising that its merchants would be fluent just as much other countries East would have access to translators from the western conquered territories. And although some variant of the vulgate italian was spoken at home, more than likely Greek was a necessity in order to communicate among the polyglot crews of the merchant fleets (most sailors were Greeks to start with) and the land caravans. Unlike somemodern day states, ancient merchants did dedicate themselves to learning the local languages.
Other cultures also studied Greek, like the Persians and the Arabs who translatted Aristoteles and Plato. Michael Crichton's Eaters of the Dead (13th Warrior) explains a lot about the language issue. In fact, when the arabs first encounter the Norsemen, they try a variety of stock greetings in different languages.
Interest in Latin, on the other hand, was resurgent at that period with the renaissance of classical civilazation. But other than its use as the exclusive ritualistic language of the ROMAN (western) Catholic Church, its use was limited and ilogical in this other part of the world.
Disclaimer: I am not Greek, and neither is English my main language.
Latin was the lingua franca of the western world and was used by the church, scholars and diplomats. Although the local tongue was used for conversation by the common people, education was in Latin as were all books, official records and written documents. French became the language of diplomacy and used at most courts, but not for another several hundred years, and French is a derivative of Latin. As the Eastern Roman empire was in Constantinople and actually survived in one form or another until defeated by the Turks, it is quite likely that traders, soldiers and slaves carried Latin further east.
Hi. I just started reading "Marco Polo: the Journey that Changed the World" by John Man (It's also published under the name Xanadu. It was one of the books used as a resource for the Netflix series.
The author did a lot of traveling in the regions where the Polos traveled. I hope the book does cover languages and communication, especially since the Polos were fluent in Mongolian, apparently, when they met Kublai Khan.
So far it's been a fantastic read: well-written and some great photos the author took in his travels. If you can get a copy, check it out.
Marco Polo probably used Persian, a common language among foreigners of the Yuan Dynasty, when he first communicated with the court and Kubai Khan. He then learnt Mongolian during his stay. Marco Polo himself stated that he picked up fluency in four languages on his travels. He did not specify what they were but historians studying his travel notes conclude they were Mongolian, Persian, Arabic and Turkish. Interestingly not Chinese. Of course his mother tongue was Italian. Also all of these languages would be different from their modern forms.
Halfnormal may be on the right track. On the trading routes like the silk road, there were several trading languages, based on whatever was your primary trade. Hebrew was another common trading language. That is why, for example, Christopher Columbus took Jews with him (Luis de Torres) when he went on his voyage. Persian, Greek, Arabic, Turkish and Hebrew were the languages of trade, and if you had a command of these, you could probably find someone to communicate with in almost any trading city along the trade routes.
Imperial armies also tended to develop a common language so that all soldiers could understand each other. But the Mongolian Army wasn't "democratic" like the Roman Imperial Army. It fought along ethnic lines, so it is unlikely that they developed a universal soldier's language like ancient Rome.
My experience living in Italy tells me that at the time of Marco Polo, people from the next hill over were almost unintelligible. Even now, in the early 21st century, I live on the border of 4 dialects, and I can barely understand any older dialect speakers of the more rural dialects.