please clarify what was the deal about trey.
HELP.WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH TREY? And does it seem as if chris did it?
shareTrey did it. He wasn't trying to set up Daniel for George's suicide to protect Chris! He doesn't care about other people. And Trey went back.
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."
I heard Daggett said they had Chris Nelm's DNA on Hannah - and that Daggett was apologizing to Trey for all Trey had been through.
Glad the nurse didn't turn of Foulkes's TV!
Chris, George, and Trey all raped Hanna. Trey killed her. Whether or not law enforcement would be able to prove it is left open, but we as viewers have all the information. It's not a question.
Daggett was informing Trey that the investigation into George's death was over, but that Hanna's death was being examined anew.
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."
I thought that Trey killed Hanna too, but when he was talking about Chris's hand, I started to think it may have been Chris all along. But then again, Trey could have been saying that to throw the investigation off of himself. OR was Trey alluding to the fact that Chris's hand was scarred? I'm not sure what to think.
shareTo make an educated guess about what Trey was up to, simply look at his history. Getting off on manipulation. Obfuscation. Framing other people.
Recall CJ Pickens recollection of Trey's reaction to George's unexpected testimony. During Chris Nelms' confession of rape he said that Trey ordered him and George to keep their mouths shut "or else." But Foulkes got to George, and pressed him to tag Daniel for the murder. Suddenly Trey realized LE had a fall guy -- a way better situation than merely relying on George and Chris to keep quiet. So, he had the presence of mind to come up with a lie that reinforced LE's tunnel vision:
CJThat lie about Daniel arguing with Hanna was cold, calculated manipulation -- and notice how it's his word only, and can't be proven false... just like it's his word that Chris Nelms' hand was injured and he kept it in his pocket. Of COURSE Daggett wouldn't remember. Trey counts on that. It's the same kind of dirty trick.
Finally, he asked Roland to
repeat what George had said
about seeing Daniel rape Hanna.
And Roland did.
SONDRA
And Trey's response?
CJ
He just sat there again, like he
was contemplating something.
Then he said he did not see any
sex at all between Daniel and
Hanna, just them arguing with
each other.
Trey's a psychopath. More evidence of it? He kept a "trophy" in the form of Hanna's hair scrunchie.
Oh yes, and while looking through that lockbox, going over George's stuff he'd taken, he looks up - in extreme closeup, to emphasize it - as if hearing someone. The implication isn't that he's simply heard a sound outside the shed. He's mad as a hatter.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson share
THANK YOU for this explanation! I had not considered this that deeply.
Trey's a psychopath. More evidence of it? He kept a "trophy" in the form of Hanna's hair scrunchie.YES! I had not considered that he really is a sociopath. That actually explains a lot now. That character just got more interesting to me from reading your post lol. There probably could have been an entire show centered around that character. The actor played him in a way that was so convincing it makes his really being a sociopath all the more intriguing.
"If it doesn't make sense, it's not true." -- Judge Judy share
Most welcome! And I agree, he's a terrific character.
Here's another huge manipulation way back when. Nelms testifies that the day after the event, Trey came to his house, and:
SONDRAOnce again, Trey's presence of mind, this time to make sure to display his supposed ignorance of the fact that the girl is dead.
And in so many words, Trey
said that if Hanna claimed
rape, that you all must stay
united.
NELMS
Yeah, that's accurate.
SONDRA
Did you take that to mean
that he did not know that
Hanna was dead?
NELMS
That's what it meant to
me, yeah.
When Sondra asks Nelms how he reacted to Daniel confessing to rape and murder, he says "Honestly, I just felt relief." At least Nelms is honest to authority figures, when forced to be. Trey routinely says "To be honest with you," but he's selective about it.
An example of this selective honesty, and further evidence of Trey's psychopathy - running in the family - happened in George's trailer. He talks about his psycho relative, and isn't happy to learn from Daniel that the man isn't just his dad's second cousin, but his cousin too. The link to madness doesn't sit well with him. So he keeps emphasizing "once removed."
On the other hand, he also admits he wasn't horrified, but was intrigued by the madness, wishing he'd seen the Lorca plays -- i.e., he wishes he'd experienced the influences he thinks led to his cousin's madness:
TREYNelms' staying quiet despite Daniel going to death row adds credibility to the idea of Trey's lethal nature, but it also indicates Nelms' own pathology. He too is distanced from normal human feeling -- that's why he gets stunned looks from Sondra and Daggett when he says certain things in certain ways, like Hanna being "pouty" after being raped, comparing the look to the way his daughter acts when she's "disappointed."
I had an uncle who went
batshit. Just lost it.
A cousin, I guess it was. Is.
DANIEL
How'd he lose it?
TREY
My dad's 2nd cousin. He's
old now.
DANIEL
So he's your 2nd cousin too.
TREY
What?
DANIEL
Your dad's 2nd cousin is your
2nd cousin, only once removed.
TREY
Yeah. Anyway. He just lost it
one day, man.
DANIEL
That can happen...
TREY
He's was, uh, artsy. Real artsy.
Well, however artsy you can be
in Spartinburg. He was always
putting on plays... lots of
Spanish stuff...
DANIEL
Lorca?
TREY
Sure, doesn't matter.
DANIEL
Lorca was shot on the side of
the road, a month into the
Spanish civil war.
TREY
Well my dad's cousin stabbed
a librarian in the face three days
into 1991.
...
TREY
You do! You do have to call
your mama!
(laughs)
You're like a time machine, that
don't go nowhere... but
backwards!
(pause)
Hey, you want me to turn down
the jambs? So she's not worried
about you being around a bad
element? Tell her you are the
bad element.
(pause)
I was just a kid, back then. I
never understood why he did
it, my 2nd cousin.
(looks to the back room)
Once removed! I remember my
family being horrified. Didn't
understand that either. To be
honest. I wasn't horrified. I was
like, wow -- wish I'd seen them
plays.
Of course Daniel thought Hanna was special, and she seemed to Chris "disappointed" because in her mind she'd allowed conditions for the rape to happen, defiling her, making her the opposite of what Daniel thought. Nelms has no access to any of that; he's oblivious.
When Sondra asks if Nelms wasn't even surprised by the confession of the rape, he replies:
NELMSAnother aspect of Nelms' pathology is his distancing from the rape, saying "God, it was so long ago. I'm not the same person. I wasn't even that person back then." He describes the aftermath of the rape as "all pretty surreal." And George also says "We were just kids. It wasn't real." By contrast, Daniel says the opposite in his testimony: "She was so real." The tragic irony is that it's Daniel, who under the influence of hallucinogens thought Hanna was so real, who ends up being deprived of that sense by being forced to exist in solitary confinement.
Later, I thought about it, and
I... I just tried to... I don't know.
Just forget.
But Nelms knows it's about to get very real, as he will be exposed as a rapist who covered his crime for 20 years, let an innocent man go to death row, and kept quiet about a fellow rapist who also strangled the 16 year-old victim. His daughter's going to be devastated, his marriage likely won't survive, or his practice.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson share
Heh, you were posting while I was looking up one of the same passages! This is much more complete. Nicely laid out.
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."
Ha. We need to check in with each other before we go rooting around for quotes.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
These are great insights into Trey's character. I had mentioned in another thread that I also thought it was telling that Daniel basically parrots back everything Trey told him about the night of Hanna's murder at the plea deal debrief. Using Trey's exact words to describe what he "saw" Hanna doing with the other boys and how he watched. Daniel doesn't actually remember any of this. He is just repeating what Trey said, using almost the exact same words. I didn't realize it until I did a rewatch for the finale. As said above, Trey is absolutely gaslighting Daniel. And manipulating him, and torturing him basically. Like when he shows up at the Talbot house in season 3 while Daniel is asleep in the living room and reiterates how awful it must have been to have been locked away for all those years. He's messing with Daniel's head for no good reason. Trey is one of the few, truly despicable characters, with just enough shading to keep you guessing.
shareThanks. So really, when it comes to motive, with Trey it's not really a problem. Same reason his cousin -- "once removed!" -- stabbed the librarian in the face. As Trey says, he went batshit. Simple as that. To be honest with you.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Right, "to be honest with you". He did say that a LOT, didn't he? He really well may be a straight up psychopath, completing devoid of honest emotion, empathy or remorse. A truly senseless killing with an excessive amount of collateral damage. It seems too pat and unsatisfying for the central mystery arguably driving the series, but, unfortunately, Hanna was kind of a secondary character in her own murder anyway. We are never going to really know who she was, what happened to her, and why, if there was a why.
shareI think we can sketch out motive. It's several related pieces. Nelms' testimony is key.
1) You mentioned that having sex with Hanna maybe meant more to Trey than he let on, and I completely agree. As you say, he emphasized more than once -- I count three from memory -- that he could have sex with her anytime he wanted. Trey was clearly very interested in eliminating any idea that he'd need to force this girl to have sex with her. It was a point of pride with him to let people know he could have sex with her at any time.
Except, we know that on that night, Hanna in fact did refuse him. As Nelms testifies, Trey described this as "change the rules in the middle of the game," denying him sex, and he was "not going to go down for that." He says the same thing to Daggett in the finale. (Nelms, even now, clearly can't, or won't, distinguish consensual from nonconsensual: the girl was tripping on mushrooms.)
How dare she? She's supposed to be easy. And now she might even claim Trey raped her -- outrage! And Nelms and George might confess they gang raped her with Trey -- more exposure of him being denied, by this supposedly easy girl. To his mind, she caused all this by "changing the rules."
2)Trey kept Hanna's hair scrunchie for 20 years. Evidently having "free" access to her for sex was important to him, not trivial at all. She meant something to him, but not in an affectionate sense: someone you can "have" any time you want is effectively property. And so, after Hanna's dead Trey keeps a piece of the "property" he considered his -- the scrunchie.
3) Trey tells Daniel:
TREYHere he literally projects himself into Daniel's shoes - that is, someone who has a "claim" on the girl, witnessing her having sex with others. He doesn't kill those others, he just threatens to if they tell. Instead, he kills the girl who, in his mind, started out letting them put themselves inside of her, then "changed the rules" and denied them. Displaced rage, anyone?
You know what? If it had been
me? I would've gone down there
and killed every sonofabitch who
put anything inside of her.
4) Nelms testifies:
NELMSSo Hanna, who Trey tells Daggett he'd been having sex with since she was 14, not only "changed the rules," causing him grief, but was now thinking only of Daniel, and telling HIM, Trey, not to say anything. She belongs to Daniel, not Trey, in a way that Trey can't access. Another blow to the ego. Small wonder Trey has no problem sending Daniel to death row.
But afterwards, she was more
worried about Daniel than what
had happened... Well, she kept
asking us not to tell him... She
just sat there. Looking ashamed,
and I don't know how else to say
this, but kind of pouty... like how
my daughter does now sometimes
when she's... hurt, or mad. Or
disappointed.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson share
More excellent insights into Trey! I keep going back and forth between him and Chris as the main suspect. They were both involved, but it's very hard to tell who did what. Or how much George knew. Just what was he going to confess the day after that he was denied the ability to do? And why would Foulkes lean so heavily on Daniel as a suspect? If it was to protect someone else, that someone would have been Chris, his friend's son, which casts suspicion right back on him. But Foulkes didn't really have any facts, so he didn't even know what he may have been protecting him from. But whereas Chris seems to be ensconced in some form of pathological denial, Trey definitely displays antisocial, sociopathic tendencies. His constant goading of Daniel just being one glaring symptom. And I never noticed the scrunchie! Will need to rewatch, that seems pretty damning to me. Daggett knows something is off about Trey, saying at one point that he was "trying too hard" to pin George's "murder" on Daniel. The evidence of Trey's "offness" just continues to pile up. It would be a form of poetic justice if he goes down for George's murder, the one thing we know for sure he didn't do (even if no one else does). Trey has a cruel streak and is deeply insecure and combative. If he was as infatuated with Hanna as he seems to be, he would take her rejection as a personal affront. And yes, Daniel would be his next target, as the perceived "competitor" for her affections so long ago. He treats Daniel like a lamb for slaughter. He plies him with drugs, and takes him to George's trailer, knowing full well George is already dead, for the sole purpose of framing him for that death (poorly). Among other lies and mistakes, he did not account for the charmingly guileless Daniel leaving a "sorry" note for the wall.
I found Chris' description of Hanna after the rape as "kind of pouty" to be so very off-putting, as it was meant to be. It is interesting that he and Trey both have daughters. While Trey seems incapable of self-reflection, it seems to finally be dawning on Chris that Hanna was just a child, like his own children, and what happened to her that night was an abomination.
I keep going back and forth between him and Chris as the main suspect.Trey went back to Hanna after the gang rape. Trey went to Chris' house the next day to warn him to keep quiet and to pretend he thought Hanna was still alive. Trey tried to set up Daniel for the non-existent murder of George, to keep him looking guilty. Trey was curious about what murder was like (his cousin) and emotionally unaffected by hearing about it. Trey kept the hair accessory.
We have all the pieces. Trey killed Hanna.
Chris is just an asshÎżle and a rapist, though not without guilt, which motivated him to visit the remaining Deans and be kind to them. We know that he eventually began to suspect Trey, but it may have taken him a while. My guess, when he told Bobby Dean that Trey went back, is when it had finally dawned on him. He didn't tell law enforcement, because he's selfish and a coward, but he did put it together. And he couldn't be friends with Bobby anymore, knowing he was covering that up.
Trey is not going to go down for George's murder, which I'd been kind of hoping for. The police know that was a suicide. Daggett asked Trey how he knew.
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude." share
I think you're right about Trey. He just seemed so obvious it makes me wonder. But, I think it was actually George that befriended Bobby, not Chris. Of the three, he seemed to be the one most reeling from the guilt of that night, and the aftermath. And he knew more than he could ever let on. Chris, the privileged, sheltered, upper-class kid would not have associated with the Deans under any circumstances, I don't think.
shareOh, right you are, yes, that was George! Well, I gave Chris too much credit then. He's an asshοle rapist WITHOUT guilt! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB59fd61k8c
Thanks, I should've remembered that. It's very much of a piece with George eventually becoming miserable enough to kill himself, too.
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."
No worries! I think it's telling that they are so easy to mix up. Despite the damage they caused they are incidental to this story and should be. And someone made George lie about Daniel. So many holes in this case ...
shareIt is a powerful moment when Chris turns off the news report and turns to face his daughter. She is near the age of Hannah when the rape/murder occurred. Chris and Trey both have daughters, as you point out. It is Trey who is quick to threaten his daughter with a spanking (in season one), frightening the child. Trey's "offness" has indeed piled up detail by detail. Trey went back and murdered Hannah. Good to see that he lost his family and home. Trey's angry tirade was a fitting final glimpse of the warped man-child.
shareTrey is probably the most important character that we know so little about. We are offered insights into the psyches and, more importantly, motivations, of nearly every other person in this tragedy (even Marcy, the waitress, to some extent) but Trey remains opaque. Why does he do what he does? Even he doesn't know. He just keeps digging a hole and getting a face full of dirt. Finally. Aside from Daniel's chief prison tormentor and rapist, Jelks, and Foulkes (who maybe has a small bit of plausible deniability, though he is still awful and indifferent to the suffering he caused due to his political machinations) Trey is just the closest thing we see to a heart of darkness. And the fact that he has the thinnest veneer of hale-fellow-well-met family man "respectability", makes him even scarier.
shareOr how much George knew. Just what was he going to confess the day after that he was denied the ability to do?
At minimum I think he was going to say he did not see Daniel rape Hanna as he'd stated. He knew more than that, namely that he and Trey and Chris raped Hanna. Whether he'd confess to that much...
But Foulkes didn't really have any facts, so he didn't even know what he may have been protecting him from.
DAGGETTwhy would Foulkes lean so heavily on Daniel as a suspect?
Did Roger Nelms and Roland
have a conversation at the station
that day?
CJ
They did.
DAGGETT
Do you know the gist of it?
CJ
I wasn't privy to it. It was held...
SONDRA
In a back room?
CJ
In private.
DAGGETT
Do you think Roger Nelms knew exactly
what Chris, and maybe others, had
done to Hanna before he brought Chris
to the station that day?
CJ
I've thought a lot about that, Carl, lately.
Roger Nelms had big plans for his son,
Chris. A serious charge like rape wasn't
part of those plans. And Chris was afraid
of his dad, too. So, could I see a man like
Roger Nelms holding his 16-year-old
son's feet to the fire till Chris caved and
admitted what he had done? Now that's
more likely to me than Chris keeping a lie
going under those same conditions.
Well, he was generally taken to be "weird," a handy scapegoat. I think that's a kind of theme running through the story. He was also found that morning sitting with Hanna. George says he saw him rape Hanna, and Trey says he saw him argue with her. And:
CJ
He seemed like... a boy who
was lying, saying he couldn't
remember things, saying he
didn't recall. Said that he was
with the girl, for a while.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson share
True, he was found with her, and he had covered her with flowers in a drugged state compounded by the shock of finding her dead. And he was the artsy, sensitive kid and the easiest suspect. But the fact that they didn't even consider anyone else, and the connections that Nelms had just makes the whole thing even more shady ... and tragic.
shareAnother thing:
CJI've suspected that those injuries weren't from the gang rape. That there was more than strangulation involved when "Trey went back." I keep thinking of his cousin - "Once removed!" - going "batshit."
Daniel, you know what happened.
She was pretty beat up down
there. Wounds like that, a young
man has to be angry. You get
angry a lot, Daniel. Lose your
temper. You got in a fight with
her, didn't you?
And right there, you can see that Pickens already had Trey's damning testimony, the lie about Daniel arguing with Hanna. Tunneling that vision...
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson share
So upsetting. This case was so badly mishandled and then you have an innocent 18 year old boy enduring a living death for 19 years. It's horrifying. And it's fiction. But wrongful convictions do happen ...
I keep thinking about Daniel telling Chloe about how his mother taught him to dance as a teenager as it was something she thought he would need "for his future." That might have been the saddest line in the whole series. He thankfully does have a future now, irrevocably altered as it is, but damn, who could have foreseen what fate had in store for him between then and now?
[deleted]
Trey also had some very telling dialogue, with Daniel (in addition to his nearly successful attempts to gaslight Daniel). S2/Ep7, "Weird as You." We've known he was a psychopath since then.
I was just a kid back then."Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude." share
I never understood why he did it, my second cousin.
Once removed.
I remember my family being horrified.
Didn't understand that either.
Be honest, I wasn't horrified.
I was like, "Wow.
Wish I'd seen them plays."
I heard Daggett said they had Chris Nelm's DNA on Hannah - and that Daggett was apologizing to Trey for all Trey had been through.
Glad the nurse didn't turn of Foulkes's TV!