sorry...was TREY indicted?
HELP.WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH TREY? And does it seem as if chris did it?
shareHELP.WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH TREY? And does it seem as if chris did it?
shareEvidence points to both of them. Daggett was warning Trey that the investigation continues.
share[deleted]
If Trey was telling the truth -- and he did seem to be -- then Chris seems to be the only one who actually raped Hanna, and the one who would want to keep her quiet. Though, if she was as promiscuous as Trey said, I doubt she could have made rape charges stick against Chris, fairly or unfairly. But that's not how 18 year old boys think; they tend to panic. Also, if all this is true, Chris was probably afraid of his father.
share[deleted]
Was Daniel an angry guy with an uncontrollable violent streak at 18? I thought they were making it clear it was not Daniel, but either Trey or Chris who raped or killed Hanna. Daniel was likely out of it due to taking whatever he also gave Hanna.
shareIt's frustratingly open-ended as there is seemingly no motive. (And yes, sometimes there just isn't one.) The only semi-plausible motive was Daniel's if (according to Trey) he strangled her out of jealousy after seeing her with the other boys. Not comprehending the rape, or blaming her regardless. Nothing we know of Daniel's character jibes with this. The other problem with it from a pragmatic standpoint hinges on the original confession 20 years prior. We hear nothing from anyone at the time, including Daniel himself, that would explain why he did it, just that he did it. Because he was high? Altered mental status? Since at the time those interrogating him did not know about the other boys having committed rape, they just assumed he snapped from the drugs or something? It is never adequately explained which makes this gross miscarriage of justice particularly egregious. It's weak sauce but I think it has to be to make the story work. There is just enough wiggle room and ambiguity that it is extremely plausible that no one knows what the hell happened that night, most importantly Daniel himself.
Toward that end, Trey is a very difficult character to get a read on. He is constantly lying, which makes him, and any of the information he provides, obviously wholly unreliable. He is also weirdly cavalier about a lot of serious sh*t, like giggling at the tv while the police ransack his house and his wife and daughters look on in horror. I did a rewatch in anticipation of the finale and when Daniel confesses, again, in the debrief for the plea deal he is basically parroting word for word what Trey had told him about that night days before at George's trailer. That's where we get Daniel's perceived jealousy as motive (something that would not have been an option during the original conviction.) And what kind of elephantine memory does Trey have that he can recall a bite on Chris' hand at the police station 20 years ago? Or that his hand was in his pocket the whole time? Seems like a red flag. Daggett knows exactly how full of it Trey is, so him just offering up that information out of nowhere does not help his case. Why wouldn't he have come forward at the time with this seemingly damning bit of evidence (of a violent rape, if not more) rather than let an innocent, supposed friend rot for 19 years? Trey does not make a whole lot of sense.
With the limited information we have, Trey as a suspect doesn't really make much sense either. Either he is just a complete sociopath (possible, but, again, frustratingly ambiguous) or maybe he was in love in Hanna (repeatedly mentioning that he could have "had" her at any time, and did, and telling Daniel he knew her better than he did, etc.) and was jealous that she was with Daniel, and killed her in a fit of rage.
With Chris, the possible reasons for his guilt are even flimsier. We know nothing about this character, other than that he was more well off than the other kids, had a domineering father he was afraid of, and raped Hanna. Did he kill her to keep her quiet about the rape? That, seems ill-conceived.
We also don't know why George killed himself. Guilt, most likely. But over what? While I am fairly certain Daniel is innocent, and of course want him to be (though there is always going to be a sliver of doubt, which is true to life, I suppose) no other truly obvious suspect presents himself. Trey, as squirrelly and devious and shifty as he has been the entire series, seems almost too obvious a suspect. He ACTS suspicious, which makes him suspect. But again, no obvious motive. It would seem one of these three, Chris, George and Trey, killed Hanna, and one of the other two knew about it. And I don't think that guilty duo was George and Trey since they question each other, alone, about whether the other may have killed her. Since they are not putting on a show for a neutral third party it would appear that they are not in collusion. That leaves us with Trey and Chris. So, I'm just gonna say Chris, because of, I dunno, reasons. They both seem pretty guilty to me about, well, something. It was enough to get Daniel convicted and nearly killed 6 times by those who thought that of him (5 stays of execution by the state, one near-death by Bobby) so, yeah, why not?
Nelms has a motive, he was about to go to medical school, had an abusive powerful dad. and looks a little bit like a less goofy less fat jonah hill
trey talked about how his uncle went crazy and stabbed someone, and he just thought it was cool, psychopaths don't need a motive
Trey went back was never explained though
Another vote for Trey as both psychopath and killer. I can buy it.
sharei am pretty agnostic,
daniel might actually still be the killer although the chances are slim
I can see the entire triad - Trey, Chris, George - participating in the killing. But if George didn't kill Hannah, why did he take his own life?
But a people have said, and something I have to keep in mind (as much as I want the killer identified, Rectify is not a police procedural. It is not The Killing (another great show only four seasons long).
I wish all of these find thespians the best; may they always be working actors, and may they always work in roles that they love.
And what kind of elephantine memory does Trey have that he can recall a bite on Chris' hand at the police station 20 years ago? Or that his hand was in his pocket the whole time? Seems like a red flag. Daggett knows exactly how full of it Trey is, so him just offering up that information out of nowhere does not help his case. Why wouldn't he have come forward at the time with this seemingly damning bit of evidence (of a violent rape, if not more) rather than let an innocent, supposed friend rot for 19 years? Trey does not make a whole lot of sense.
Of course it makes no sense; this scene was transparently about Trey making a last-ditch effort to save himself with yet another lie. Daggett clearly doesn't buy it.
why would Trey be at the police station when Chris arrived the next morning with his father
Because that's not how it happened. All the kids but Chris were brought in the next morning, and Chris arrived later that day:
CJ PICKENSTrey was still there:
Roger took his sweet time bringing
Chris down to the station that day.
CJ PICKENSMcKinnon did write himself into a corner, but not in the way you assume.
Once Holden had confessed to murder,
to rape, Roland felt like that we should
just cut George loose, cut all the kids
loose.
Yeah, I think Trey is lying as well. So desperate is he to deflect blame. It's kind of his m.o. at that point. The point of this series was never the "whodunnit", it was the "now what?" Still, being so emotionally invested in these characters, one wants to have SOME kind of resolution so we are left with Chris and Trey, both of whom seem to know a lot more about what happened that night and why than Daniel ever will. And they are both covering up for something. So I think, the point is, even 20 years ago there was significant reasonable doubt. Daniel, even if were guilty, never received a fair trial. He never even had a chance ...
share[deleted]
Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and 20 years after it's wildly so.
He might, of course, be afraid of the new investigation. But that all seems to point at Chris Nelms.
Of course he's afraid of the new investigation, as his dialogue makes clear: "So y'all are gonna try to pin Hanna's death on me now?" His lie clearly doesn't have anything to do with George.
The new investigation doesn't all seem to point at Nelms, it overwhelmingly points at Trey. This is made clear by CJ Pickens and Chris Nelms' interviews with Daggett and Sondra.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
I agree that the new information points to Trey. We've seen evidence of Trey's temper and dishonesty. He was shockingly quick to turn on his own daughter and ask if she wanted a spanking when she approached him as he was handling his lock-box. Should Trey be brought to trial, Nelms will be called to testify. His own daughter will learn the unsavory truth of her father's actions.
shareSo what is Chris Nelms' involvement then? Was he a witness? Did he rape Hanna? If he knew it was Trey, not Daniel, why not speak up? Why did the Senator focus on Daniel instead of Trey?
Trey's story about Hanna was not true, then? He did rape her? She was not promiscuous? Even Daniel seemed to hint that she was.
I'm not defending Trey, who is an unpleasant and unsavory character (though the actor, Sean Bridgers, could be right out of my family, he has that "Kentucky" look), but why bring Chris Nelms and his father and the senator's protection of Nelms into it, if Trey killed Hanna? Especially now? Chris' behavior is peculiar, too.
What's the theory, is all I'm asking.
My take (mostly going on the last two episodes): Nelms had sex with Hannah. Statutory rape. Trey went back. Hannah may well have been raped by Trey previously. She turned him down, making him angry and violent. Denied what he wanted, he strangled her. Once silver spoon Nelms' father showed up, Trey saw a way to turn this to his advantage. Nelms was protected by the powers that be. Daniel quickly became the fall guy. Nelms does not seem to have guessed that Trey, rather than Daniel, was the killer. Trey said they should have their stories straight in case Hannah made a fuss. This was very clever, as at that point only Trey knew Hannah was dead.
shareI figure it was either Chris or Trey and McKinnon was satisfied with letting the audience know it was not Daniel; but not so interested in clearly identifying the murderer.
shareHistory has reset with the announcement that the case will be reopened. And Trey and Chris will be Trey and Chris yet again: Trey actively working the police to try and allay their suspicions of him, while Chris hides out in his home trying to decide whether to come out.
shareUnbelievable they didn't give us the answer to the question we've wondered for so long. Yes it matters. Its television and we deserve to know what happened after 4 years of patiently waiting.
shareHere's my take: We should have gotten a flashback at the river that night. Trey or Chris killed her and the other one saw it. We should have gotten a flashback with the Senator speaking with Roger Nelms (I know he was the prosecutor at the time I just always refer to him as the Senator). I think Roger told the Senator exactly what happened and the Senator told him to sit on it cause he had a kid who had already confessed. Lastly, I think the Senator convinced George to testify that he saw Daniel raping Hannah to corroborate the confession in court. The senator should have went down. I think the Senator tried to convince Trey to testify against Daniel as well that he saw him raping her too but he wouldn't only that he saw them arguing. That tells me something right there as well. Chris is the killer.
I think this is a good take on what happened.
I'm not convinced Trey killed Hanna because of what he told Daggett. He knew his own contribution to that night, but he also knew Chris Nelms was "protected" and that Daniel was sacrificed, by Foulkes and others. Yes, Trey was worried about his own future, bitter at what he'd lost, even if his own fault. That doesn't make what he said a lie.
If Nelms has no guilt, why does he behave as if he does? Why did his father conspire with Foulkes to keep him out of it?
Why did his father conspire with Foulkes to keep him out of it?
Because Roger knew his son raped Hanna, and that was a huge threat to Chris's future. Even worse, as a lawyer himself, Roger also knew that rape constituted possible motive for killing the girl. He knew LE would have no choice but to consider Chris a murder suspect if the rape admission got out.
If Nelms has no guilt, why does he behave as if he does?
I think Nelms feels shame, not so much guilt. He doesn't like to be exposed. He knows he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder. He expresses shame about gang raping her, of course only once his hand was forced with the DNA evidence, and we see him working very hard to distance himself from that feeling and the act itself.
His behaviour also reveals bitter anger, not guilt, in the scene with the TV and his daughter. His crime, previously hidden, is about to go very public as key testimony in the new investigation. Everyone will know, in particular his daughter and wife. He doesn't need to be found the actual murderer to have his life destroyed.
I'm not sure how many patients are going to continue to see an admitted rapist -- and not only that, but a guy who by not admitting the truth of the rape could have spared another man going down for that charge, which in turn would have undermined LE's case for that man murdering the girl, the key to his ultimately being sent away to endure 20 years in solitary confinement on death row.
Chris allowed his own potential motive for murder to be falsely attributed to Daniel. The awful irony of his words to George, who threatened to tell the truth:
NELMS
I thought it was, uh, a noble
idea, but I didn't think it was
a good one.
SONDRA
Why not?
NELMS
I told him it was too late. It
wouldn't change anything.
In fact, it It would ruin a lot
of lives.
His behaviour also reveals bitter anger, not guilt, in the scene with the TV and his daughter.
The ground you've provided for your complaint is that you can't see. To help you see I would direct you to his facial expression and tone of voice.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Fair enough.
But I still don't see "bitter anger". You do, but it's not a fait accompli, just what you see....as in what I don't see.
Unless, and perhaps you can, point me to the script that reads: actor expresses bitter anger.
[deleted]
But the show was not about who killed Hanna Dean; it was about what would it be like for a released former death row inmate to try to readjust to life in his home town, both for him, his family, and other townspeople. I do think McKinnon provided enough in the finale to indicate Daniel was not guilty of killing Hanna and for me that is enough.
share[deleted]
"It's television."
Apparently you see no distinctions between any dramas on television, because they are on television. They must be limited to making things definitive, say by using flashbacks to lead us by the hand. They are not allowed to leave it at providing circumstantial evidence so viewers must use their imaginations, and add two plus two to get four on their own. They can't leave any ambiguity, any room for doubt.
Room for doubt was part of the meaning and quality of what was being said.
You should not be surprised by this kind of ending. The story signaled early that it wasn't likely to be the kind to take viewers by the hand and literally show them "the truth." It signaled this by consistently avoiding making characters and events simplistic, reduceable, and instead presented contextual information by which we could, on our own, work out ways to understand.
That strategy was one of the major ways the story encouraged deep engagement in viewers. The goal was viewer participation all the way through, by refusing to deliver the usual passive experience of handing out pre-digested answers as most TV shows do. (This is why the character Chloe was such a disappointment.)
This approach is faithful to the experience of life, at least much of the time. And there is no exception to that in formal justice, where most convictions are obtained based on circumstantial evidence.
Ambiguity was the story's stock-in-trade from the start. It celebrated the mystery of human experience -- as both an aggravation and a precious value.
Breaking that guiding principle -- that poetic sensibility -- and making everything about the crime crystal clear at the very end would have deeply disrespected viewers. It would have robbed them of the pleasure of working out circumstantial evidence in order to intuit, if not perfectly understand, character and event.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
I get what you're saying just personal preference to liking a different style ending than you. But, you can phrase the reasons "why not" as eloquently as you like but I don't believe 1 person watching would have said, "Well damn, I didn't want to know who the killer was."
shareIt's not about not wanting to know who the killer was, it's about different preferences of HOW the killer is revealed.
We both want to know who the killer was. Where we differ is that you're unsatisfied by being presented with circumstantial evidence you can use to work out the answer for yourself.
As mentioned, to have the killer revealed directly, for example though devices like a flashback to 20 years ago, would totally violate the nature of the show, because from day one it's emphasized that the truth usually can't be perfectly known, that most of the time it's revealed by paying close attention to circumstantial evidence.
In this case the evidence very strongly points to one individual. But you do have to exert some effort; it's not a passive experience.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
would totally violate the nature of the show,
The case is more polluted than the Chattahoochee River.
Rectify - parody pix
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TLG67x/
i beg to differ, i think the whole town is in De NILE,.....sorry i had to
shareGreat show will be missed. Maybe one day way down the road Ray will let us in on the killer in an interview or something.
shareExcept Ray did let us in on the killer. He's never going to be more explicit because he wouldn't want to spoil the pleasure for new viewers of working out the circumstantial evidence he so carefully laid in. There's no way any writer would work so hard to make that strategy work -- and it's bloody hard -- only to sabotage it later, just to pander to a totally different sensibility.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
yeah if you read interviews with him, and read between the line,
it is pretty obvious that he implies "in the version he saw" that it seemed like daniel was innocent,
but said it was open to interpretations, and even said his interpretation in 10 years might be totally different
I just hope his next project is so good, and he snaps up Aden Young as the villain and Walton Goggins as the protagonist,(if things were ever really that cut and dry)
was Foulkes the villain? was Trey the villain? Chris? Daniels rapists,
or just PTSD and small town ignorance
i am really surprised walton goggins didn't have a guest role or even a cameo considering he was the first choice for Daniel,
and is Ray's best friend, i believe they run a company together
even said his interpretation in 10 years might be totally different
Ray says "there's no definitive interpretation," and that's true because he presents circumstantial evidence, not definitive evidence like - God help us - a flashback to 20 years ago.
That said, the circumstantial evidence he laid out does very strongly imply a particular character. That character threw a curve in at the last possible moment by bringing up the story of Chris's hand. Trey the inveterate liar and manipulator who suddenly realizes the circumstantial evidence does actually lead to him.
What he needs right then is some reasonable doubt. So he plants it. His word against Chris's. Can't be disproved. Just like it was his word that Daniel was arguing with Hanna. Can't be disproved.
And still: "Trey went back."
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
And still: "Trey went back."Also the attempted framing of Daniel. It seems like a lot of viewers have simply forgotten about that, or somehow never considered why Trey did it.
Exactly.
Another thing: Trey focuses entirely on motive, claiming he had none on the basis he didn't rape Hanna. He says Chris was always the one with the motive because he knew he raped Hanna, whereas Trey never thought he did.
But this argument doesn't hold because what Trey thought he did is beside the point. The point is of course what Hanna thought -- and what she thought would weigh heavily as his motive regardless of his own opinion of what happened.
"Not going down for" rape is the same phrase Chris recalled Trey saying when he threatened "or else" if Chris and George didn't keep quiet, as Trey said to Daggett on two separate occasions. This is motive.
Trey is so invested in convincing others that Hanna would never turn him down that in his mind she disappears as a relevant, independent agent whose own feelings count for a great deal in terms of his motive. Which is typical for a psychopath. He's inflated this point of pride of being able to get sex from her any time he wants into something like an overriding law of nature, a defense that magically eliminates any motive for killing her.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."
Truth test: Do you think Trey would've tried the "no motive" thing on Sondra? The "bitch?"
No wonder he's pissed that Daggett tells him to tell it to the GBI.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Truth test: Do you think Trey would've tried the "no motive" thing on Sondra? The "bitch?"Good question.
see i am going for trey being the murderer, because :trey went back:, and because he has never told a straight story beginning with the interrogation back in 1994
that line "we thought he was protecting a friend"
if he is a full blown narcissistic psychopath he doesn't need a motive,
and that "friend he was protecting" most likely is just himself, narcissists when they feel threatened act in different ways,
trey obviously is smarter then he looks and sounds,
when he takes Georges stuff and puts it in the ammo box, and has his gloves and reading glasses on, he looks so calculating and sinister
one thing that stands out, if treys dna was not on the panties, whose was the third sample,
Except Ray did let us in on the killer.
[deleted]
Again, there's a measure of ambiguity because the evidence is circumstantial, not definitive like a flashback. That's always the case. Yet that circumstantial evidence is also very strong. Other theories lack the same amount and explicitness of evidence.
Why wouldn't Trey be "rather impassioned" after realizing he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder?
How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?
Chris' reaction to the TV doesn't imply specifically that he murdered Hanna. He's about to have his participation in the gang rape exposed, and his covering it up, which got someone else sent to prison. Of course he'd be upset, his life is about to implode.
The business about McKinnon working for TV and his future is just cynical fancy and should be dismissed.
McKinnon laid out strong circumstantial evidence, so to suddenly be more explicit would spoil the pleasure of piecing it together. The arrangement of various evidence allows fans to have it any way they want, which is of course necessary to the enjoyment of working through it, weighing pieces, thinking about context, and so on. What one may want isn't necessarily the same as what may be the most cogent synthesis of the evidence.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Why wouldn't Trey be "rather impassioned" after realizing he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder?
How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?
The business about McKinnon working for TV and his future is just cynical fancy and should be dismissed.
/quote]
Not at all. Why is that cynical, it's true, isn't it? He does work in tv, it is, probably, his future; I doubt he sees it in some romanticized mystical way, or, indeed, but as a practical, pragmatic truth. Which is how I meant it.
[quote]McKinnon laid out strong circumstantial evidence, so to suddenly be more explicit would spoil the pleasure of piecing it together.
The arrangement of various evidence allows fans to have it any way they want, which is of course necessary to the enjoyment of working through it,
Nelms will be a suspect. As noted, the story supplied very strong circumstantial evidence pointing to Trey. Viewers have also been given knowledge of evidence not known to LE within the story world.
Why would Trey say that, particularly, if it didn't happen?
I've already spoken to that. Muddy the waters. That's Trey's stock-in-trade. See his entire exchange with Daniel in George's trailer. He's an ace opportunist. It was made obvious by the finale that Trey is an expert, inveterate liar, and that he does it well under pressure.
Similarly, the scar story is about muddying the waters. But it won't help because there's other evidence against him. Not to mention, Nelms has already admitted to rape, that it wasn't consensual. Trey doesn't know that.
Trey is the one denying he raped Hanna, because in his mind that's an impossibility. Nelms is scum, but he's not that supremely arrogant. He isn't the one who's acted as if he were entitled to Hanna Dean's vagina, "anytime [he] wants."
The "perhaps" stuff doesn't make the scar "something that may be easy to prove" as motive for murder, let alone for murder itself. Even if an old scar still existed it wouldn't prove Hanna bit him. There's no way to prove perjury, either. And Roger Nelms is hardly going to have any qualms about saying he didn't see a scar.
I'm not going to indulge personal innuendo about the writer that supposedly explains the reason why on-screen content is the way it is. The claim that the writer took "the easy way" can be addressed based on content alone; however, your claim of why he supposedly wrote it is based on a fantasy of his inner life, and of course that can't be addressed.
The evidence is "all over the place," but not in the sense of incoherence. Where it was put is meaningful.
Why? Because of guilt? We might be supposed to think so.
Of course we're supposed to think so. The evidence of guilt being the "rot" inside him was overwhelming. It came from several sources, George included.
McKinnon couldn't have been more explicit or consistent with the idea that Trey considered Hanna property. He kept a piece of that property.
Daniel doesn't remember because he was high on a psychotropic drug. Reinforcing this, we see him blank out at Lezly's after taking drugs.
You've claimed this incoherence before, for example in reference to why Daniel took apart the kitchen. In that case you hadn't accounted for the entire episode prior to the event, which informed it. Same thing when you were mystified by Daniel sabotaging the pool -- you hadn't accounted for significant events in his plot prior to that event. Same thing now with the evidence supposedly being "all over the place." You blame the writer, but the problem is with the quality of your perception.
That some viewers thought the Senator did it is setting an extremely low bar. It's also unproductive due to obfuscation. Again, the evidence isn't incoherent unless we decide not to weigh it. Then of course it's a jumble, "all over the place," one thing no more meaningful than another.
Relatedly, there are different kinds of mystery writers. This one gave us circumstantial evidence; the pleasure of working it out, of weighing it, could obviously only happen if there is some ambiguity. Otherwise there's no need to add two plus two since the calculation is done for us.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Well, I effed up my own response, mistakenly including my comments in a quote, but I'm glad you could make sense of them
I've already spoken to that. Muddy the waters. That's Trey's stock-in-trade. See his entire exchange with Daniel in George's trailer. He's an ace opportunist. It was made obvious by the finale that Trey is an expert, inveterate liar, and that he does it well under pressure.
McKinnon couldn't have been more explicit or consistent with the idea that Trey considered Hanna property. He kept a piece of that property.
your claim of why he supposedly wrote it is based on a fantasy of his inner life
You've claimed this incoherence before, for example in reference to why Daniel took apart the kitchen. In that case you hadn't accounted for the entire episode prior to the event, which informed it. Same thing when you were mystified by Daniel sabotaging the pool -- you hadn't accounted for significant events in his plot prior to that event. Same thing now with the evidence supposedly being "all over the place." You blame the writer, but the problem is with the quality of your perception.
Relatedly, there are different kinds of mystery writers. This one gave us circumstantial evidence; the pleasure of working it out, of weighing it, could obviously only happen if there is some ambiguity. Otherwise there's no need to add two plus two since the calculation is done for us.
I say he could as well be telling the truth.
A psychopathic, inveterate liar, arch-manipulator, and you think he could just as well be telling the truth? In that case I've got prime beachfront property for you at an amazing price! Sign here, press hard!
Chris had more to lose than did Trey.
Sure, if you discount Trey's pride, his assumption of ownership, which he reiterated at every opportunity.
Just because he considered her property, doesn't mean he killed her. Teddy considered Tawney property, too. Do you think he was capable of murdering her?
False equivalence. When talking circumstantial evidence, it's not the one thing.
I don't make any claim to a fantasy of his inner life... I assume he'd like to write for them again, or someone else.
Ascribing motive. Fantasizing the man's inner life. I choose not to indulge that kind of speculation. It's empty.
Whether he did it out of anger or because he wanted to finish the remodel is immaterial, really.
Whoa, a revealing statement there. The motivation of the protagonist is "immaterial?" It's only material to understanding the man at all. You were the one who claimed the absurdities that he was "emotionless" and "unable to interact with anyone." And that we can't understand Daniel, just speculate about him. But when actual context that was presented on-screen is supplied so you can understand Daniel, suddenly it's "immaterial."
You don't disagree with what "it" is, you treat "it" like kryptonite. The problem hasn't been with the writing in these cases, but with both lack of perception and an aversion to sharpening it by even acknowledging context you'd missed.
The reality is this was McKinnon's way of sustaining doubt as to Daniel's innocence. If he could do these things, what else is he capable of?
LOL. Dude spilled paint over his own work! He tried to start a renovation on his mother's kitchen without any skillset! He could be capable of murder! Except this runs totally contrary to prior events that had direct and blatant relevance to his behaviour in these scenes. Set up / payoff. Until you recognize this stuff you'll either stay perplexed or mischaracterize.
The last bit doesn't address the point, which was about the kind of mystery that leaves readers with circumstantial evidence so they can have the pleasure of working it out. You're talking about something different: the particular kind of character such evidence points to.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Anything else I could say to your responses would just be repeating myself, so I won't.
But:
LOL. Dude spilled paint over his own work! He tried to start a renovation on his mother's kitchen without any skillset! He could be capable of murder! Except this runs totally contrary to prior events that had direct and blatant relevance to his behaviour in these scenes. Set up / payoff. Until you recognize this stuff you'll either stay perplexed or mischaracterize.
[deleted]
I don't claim any knockouts, and I'm sure Whatlarks would disagree if I did, but thank you, anyway, Sign.
You've claimed that Daniel is "emotionless" and "unable to interact with anyone." These are absurdities, and they arise from seriously flawed perception.
Same thing with your insistence that we can't understand the character enough and have to merely speculate about him.
Lately you've referred to circumstantial evidence as being "all over the place," implying incoherence. This is caused by the same flawed perception.
You've simply repeated your mischaracterization of the kitchen scene -- still avoiding 9/10ths of the episode that led up to it which supplied all the context necessary to understanding his state of mind.
When it is understood, the consequence for the character emotionally - and vicariously for the viewer - is far more significant than some temporary outburst of petulant anger. The reason is because the distance between desire and result is far greater.
You can't have this experience if you miss that crucial context gradually built up over the whole episode.
I outlined that context. His behaviour could seem "petulant" and "angry" only if you don't recognize what inspired him to do this and are seeing the event as if it occurred in a vacuum. Because his act was not informed by anger; there was no petulance about it.
As for the pool, the character's anger -- actually a specific kind of anger -- has never been denied; the problem has been that you've claimed there's no way to understand it. Yet I outlined the influential context that, again, led to this moment. But like the context in "Donald the Normal," you've never acknowledged it.
This is why I asked you to say if you think this context even exists. Yes or no. You wouldn't even do that. That's extreme.
What is the value of participating in discussion of a work if one is dedicated to avoiding whole chunks of it? It means significant aspects of the work just can't be explored with you. What about the spirit of discovery? Holding to a partial view limits potential experience. Like with the kitchen scene, the impact won't be nearly what it can be if prior context is able to affect you, as intended. Referring you to this context is a gift, mme3924-1.
I think I'm troubled by your position because avoiding context is a choice, not an inherent limitation of some kind. I mentioned that criticism of this context would be reasonable because it would mean actually acknowledging it. But it's hardly reasonable to avoid it, continue to wildly mischaracterize, and blame the writer.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
When it is understood, the consequence for the character emotionally - and vicariously for the viewer - is far more significant than some temporary outburst of petulant anger. The reason is because the distance between desire and result is far greater.
What is the value of participating in discussion of a work if one is dedicated to avoiding whole chunks of it? It means significant aspects of the work just can't be explored with you. What about the spirit of discovery? Holding to a partial view limits potential experience. Like with the kitchen scene, the impact won't be nearly what it can be if prior context is able to affect you, as intended. Referring you to this context is a gift, mme3924-1.
But it's hardly reasonable to avoid it, continue to wildly mischaracterize, and blame the writer.
Again, the choice to avoid the context supplied for consideration.
Why is that?
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Again, the choice to avoid the context supplied for consideration.
Why is that?
Again, you avoid the context presented for the kitchen and pool scenes.
You avoided it when first presented in answer to your stated perplexity. When asked if you thought the context even existed, yes or no, you didn't answer.
Why have you been so averse to even looking at the context informing these scenes?
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
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He will quibble over semantics.
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How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?What's it matter anyway?
You're right. It matters only as far as it's useful to muddying the water. And as mentioned, Trey doesn't know that Chris has already admitted to raping Hanna.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Cormac McCarthy wrote a splendid book called The Road. Take place in post-apocalypse America, but not, say a zombie apocalypse. Maybe a war; maybe natural phenomenon.
At various times he has said he knows what happens; at other times he has said he doesn't. What matters to him is what happens to the people in the novel - the who, not the how.
I think something like that happened here. We are not going to get closure as we did with Six Feel Under, where we learned what happened to all the major characters.
Cormac McCarthy wrote a splendid book called The Road. Take place in post-apocalypse America, but not, say a zombie apocalypse. Maybe a war; maybe natural phenomenon.
At various times he has said he knows what happens; at other times he has said he doesn't. What matters to him is what happens to the people in the novel - the who, not the how.
"Closure" is a strange concept when you get down to it.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
I would like t have known, Charlotte, but McKinnon has said from day 1 that that wasn't the point of this series.
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Didn't Trey shoot George?
shareNo, he didn't. In the final scene of the pilot episode, we watch George put the gun to his head and shoot himself. No one else around.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
George took his own life
shareIf we would have gotten a flashback everyone would have been happy. Those who say the show ended perfectly like it did so on and so forth would have been saying the same thing likewise. Even more so probably.
shareBut we actually see George shoot himself in the head. There's no need for a flashback about that.
I think your disappointment is understandable, Charlotte, because you've had hope for a definitive, unambiguous result, which this kind of story wasn't going to deliver.
Instead, it ended on strong circumstantial evidence, an approach in keeping with its nature right from the start. It was always going to deliver a different kind of satisfaction than the one you prefer.
The story's creator obviously recognized the fact that in human affairs the truth is not usually definitive and without at least some ambiguity. He wanted to explore that dramatically. So it would be unfaithful to that intent to suddenly come up with a perfect picture of what happened, that proved beyond all doubt who the bad guy was.
Doing such a thing would be perceived, rightly, as blatant cheating by fans who recognized the nature of the story. It would deliver a fake ending, totally out of sync with what came before.
The Rectify approach is very unlike the usual TV stories we're weaned on since birth, which re-tell the comforting lie that the truth can often be known to complete certainty. In such stories, the tell-all flashback exists, unlike in real life. Same thing for its physical manifestation, in the form of Talking Villain Syndrome.
These kind of stories truly take place in a magic world, a world we wish for because it would be much more convenient than our own. However, the cost of existing in that magic omniscient world would be great, precisely because there would never be any doubt, any mystery. Mystery is a gift, and the human psyche has made much of it.
Rectify is about our kind of world, not the magic wish-fulfilling world of the usual TV stories. In our world, most cases in law are resolved based on circumstantial evidence rather than, say, some kind of perfect recordings of the crimes.
I think this aspect of criminal law has relevance to human relations in general, and I think the story dealt with that. We can't definitively know one another, or even our own selves. And yet we carry on despite this overriding mystery. It's a wondrous thing. We tell stories, and some of them are more honest than others.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
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Well stated, but everything you mention about the stories meaning still works for me and I'm sure many others if they reveal who the killer is.
For me it's no different than say the end of True Detective season 1. When it was all said and done we got to meet the Yellow King, and as Tawney would say it was glorious. There were plenty of little details in that story we wanted answers to but never got to learn. But that was okay.
SPOILERS
I found the ending of TD S1 to be uninspired and anticlimactic. The Yellow King is just a crude whacko, Cohle miraculously survives near disembowelment, then literally "sees the light" while in a coma.
Gaak! I wanted a better reward for putting up with the misogyny.
"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson
Now if only Rust Cohle would have been the detective assigned to Daniels case, he would have made it rain.
share[deleted]
Sign, you actually think Daniel is the killer?
share[deleted]
Interesting point of view. Nothing in my mind points to Daniel being the killer. 70/30 split for me at this point 70 goes to Trey and 30 to Chris. Trey always had too many answers for everything and the more I think about the statement that Trey went back gives us the answer we're all wondering right there.
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If ray velcoro was the sheriff at his time, Daniel would have been his brother in law,
things would have definitely went different,
the coffee cracking would have been much better