MovieChat Forums > Rectify (2013) Discussion > sorry...was TREY indicted?

sorry...was TREY indicted?


HELP.WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH TREY? And does it seem as if chris did it?

reply

Evidence points to both of them. Daggett was warning Trey that the investigation continues.

reply

You think they strangled her together somehow?


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

One of them killed her, but they were both in on it.

reply

I don't understand. Nelms wanted her dead? If that's it, I can't think of the evidence you're referring to.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

I tend to think Trey was lying about Nelms.

reply

[deleted]

If Trey was telling the truth -- and he did seem to be -- then Chris seems to be the only one who actually raped Hanna, and the one who would want to keep her quiet. Though, if she was as promiscuous as Trey said, I doubt she could have made rape charges stick against Chris, fairly or unfairly. But that's not how 18 year old boys think; they tend to panic. Also, if all this is true, Chris was probably afraid of his father.

reply

[deleted]

Was Daniel an angry guy with an uncontrollable violent streak at 18? I thought they were making it clear it was not Daniel, but either Trey or Chris who raped or killed Hanna. Daniel was likely out of it due to taking whatever he also gave Hanna.

reply

It's frustratingly open-ended as there is seemingly no motive. (And yes, sometimes there just isn't one.) The only semi-plausible motive was Daniel's if (according to Trey) he strangled her out of jealousy after seeing her with the other boys. Not comprehending the rape, or blaming her regardless. Nothing we know of Daniel's character jibes with this. The other problem with it from a pragmatic standpoint hinges on the original confession 20 years prior. We hear nothing from anyone at the time, including Daniel himself, that would explain why he did it, just that he did it. Because he was high? Altered mental status? Since at the time those interrogating him did not know about the other boys having committed rape, they just assumed he snapped from the drugs or something? It is never adequately explained which makes this gross miscarriage of justice particularly egregious. It's weak sauce but I think it has to be to make the story work. There is just enough wiggle room and ambiguity that it is extremely plausible that no one knows what the hell happened that night, most importantly Daniel himself.

Toward that end, Trey is a very difficult character to get a read on. He is constantly lying, which makes him, and any of the information he provides, obviously wholly unreliable. He is also weirdly cavalier about a lot of serious sh*t, like giggling at the tv while the police ransack his house and his wife and daughters look on in horror. I did a rewatch in anticipation of the finale and when Daniel confesses, again, in the debrief for the plea deal he is basically parroting word for word what Trey had told him about that night days before at George's trailer. That's where we get Daniel's perceived jealousy as motive (something that would not have been an option during the original conviction.) And what kind of elephantine memory does Trey have that he can recall a bite on Chris' hand at the police station 20 years ago? Or that his hand was in his pocket the whole time? Seems like a red flag. Daggett knows exactly how full of it Trey is, so him just offering up that information out of nowhere does not help his case. Why wouldn't he have come forward at the time with this seemingly damning bit of evidence (of a violent rape, if not more) rather than let an innocent, supposed friend rot for 19 years? Trey does not make a whole lot of sense.

With the limited information we have, Trey as a suspect doesn't really make much sense either. Either he is just a complete sociopath (possible, but, again, frustratingly ambiguous) or maybe he was in love in Hanna (repeatedly mentioning that he could have "had" her at any time, and did, and telling Daniel he knew her better than he did, etc.) and was jealous that she was with Daniel, and killed her in a fit of rage.

With Chris, the possible reasons for his guilt are even flimsier. We know nothing about this character, other than that he was more well off than the other kids, had a domineering father he was afraid of, and raped Hanna. Did he kill her to keep her quiet about the rape? That, seems ill-conceived.

We also don't know why George killed himself. Guilt, most likely. But over what? While I am fairly certain Daniel is innocent, and of course want him to be (though there is always going to be a sliver of doubt, which is true to life, I suppose) no other truly obvious suspect presents himself. Trey, as squirrelly and devious and shifty as he has been the entire series, seems almost too obvious a suspect. He ACTS suspicious, which makes him suspect. But again, no obvious motive. It would seem one of these three, Chris, George and Trey, killed Hanna, and one of the other two knew about it. And I don't think that guilty duo was George and Trey since they question each other, alone, about whether the other may have killed her. Since they are not putting on a show for a neutral third party it would appear that they are not in collusion. That leaves us with Trey and Chris. So, I'm just gonna say Chris, because of, I dunno, reasons. They both seem pretty guilty to me about, well, something. It was enough to get Daniel convicted and nearly killed 6 times by those who thought that of him (5 stays of execution by the state, one near-death by Bobby) so, yeah, why not?

reply

Nelms has a motive, he was about to go to medical school, had an abusive powerful dad. and looks a little bit like a less goofy less fat jonah hill

trey talked about how his uncle went crazy and stabbed someone, and he just thought it was cool, psychopaths don't need a motive

Trey went back was never explained though

reply

Another vote for Trey as both psychopath and killer. I can buy it.

reply

i am pretty agnostic,
daniel might actually still be the killer although the chances are slim

reply

I can see the entire triad - Trey, Chris, George - participating in the killing. But if George didn't kill Hannah, why did he take his own life?

But a people have said, and something I have to keep in mind (as much as I want the killer identified, Rectify is not a police procedural. It is not The Killing (another great show only four seasons long).

I wish all of these find thespians the best; may they always be working actors, and may they always work in roles that they love.

reply

Thanks so much for your articulate response. I found it very helpful. And also thanks for all of your post....you are a really good writer.

reply

Thanks very much! You are too kind. Glad it was helpful. 😊

reply

And what kind of elephantine memory does Trey have that he can recall a bite on Chris' hand at the police station 20 years ago? Or that his hand was in his pocket the whole time? Seems like a red flag. Daggett knows exactly how full of it Trey is, so him just offering up that information out of nowhere does not help his case. Why wouldn't he have come forward at the time with this seemingly damning bit of evidence (of a violent rape, if not more) rather than let an innocent, supposed friend rot for 19 years? Trey does not make a whole lot of sense.



Doesn't seem entirely farfetched. That was a traumatic event; I think a teenager who suspected or knew another teenager committed a murder, might well remember all the details. Trey would especially remember Chris' hand never been examined. The problem is, why would Trey be at the police station when Chris arrived the next morning with his father and see that he kept his hand in his pocket?

The reality is, I think, that McKinnon wrote himself into a corner and didn't know how to get out, which is why he left it ambiguous. When he began writing the series, he may not have been all that interested in who "did it", only in the idea of a teenager who spent 20 years on death row for a crime he didn't -- or probably didn't -- commit being released and reintroduced to his life and family. That struggle was McKinnon's theme, I think, less so the actual mystery of the crime.

reply

Of course it makes no sense; this scene was transparently about Trey making a last-ditch effort to save himself with yet another lie. Daggett clearly doesn't buy it.

why would Trey be at the police station when Chris arrived the next morning with his father

Because that's not how it happened. All the kids but Chris were brought in the next morning, and Chris arrived later that day:

CJ PICKENS
Roger took his sweet time bringing
Chris down to the station that day.
Trey was still there:
CJ PICKENS
Once Holden had confessed to murder,
to rape, Roland felt like that we should
just cut George loose, cut all the kids
loose.
McKinnon did write himself into a corner, but not in the way you assume.

That was a traumatic event; I think a teenager who suspected or knew another teenager committed a murder, might well remember all the details.

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and 20 years after it's wildly so.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Yeah, I think Trey is lying as well. So desperate is he to deflect blame. It's kind of his m.o. at that point. The point of this series was never the "whodunnit", it was the "now what?" Still, being so emotionally invested in these characters, one wants to have SOME kind of resolution so we are left with Chris and Trey, both of whom seem to know a lot more about what happened that night and why than Daniel ever will. And they are both covering up for something. So I think, the point is, even 20 years ago there was significant reasonable doubt. Daniel, even if were guilty, never received a fair trial. He never even had a chance ...

reply

[deleted]

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and 20 years after it's wildly so.



Well, Trey apparently didn't tell anyone about this at the time. He was willing to let Daniel take the blame. But if he knew it, he had known it all the time, he didn't just "remember" it 20 years later.

You may be right that Trey is the guilty party. But why try to convince Daggett? The charges against Trey were dropped. He might, of course, be afraid of the new investigation. But that all seems to point at Chris Nelms.

reply

He might, of course, be afraid of the new investigation. But that all seems to point at Chris Nelms.

Of course he's afraid of the new investigation, as his dialogue makes clear: "So y'all are gonna try to pin Hanna's death on me now?" His lie clearly doesn't have anything to do with George.

The new investigation doesn't all seem to point at Nelms, it overwhelmingly points at Trey. This is made clear by CJ Pickens and Chris Nelms' interviews with Daggett and Sondra.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

I agree that the new information points to Trey. We've seen evidence of Trey's temper and dishonesty. He was shockingly quick to turn on his own daughter and ask if she wanted a spanking when she approached him as he was handling his lock-box. Should Trey be brought to trial, Nelms will be called to testify. His own daughter will learn the unsavory truth of her father's actions.

reply

So what is Chris Nelms' involvement then? Was he a witness? Did he rape Hanna? If he knew it was Trey, not Daniel, why not speak up? Why did the Senator focus on Daniel instead of Trey?

Trey's story about Hanna was not true, then? He did rape her? She was not promiscuous? Even Daniel seemed to hint that she was.

I'm not defending Trey, who is an unpleasant and unsavory character (though the actor, Sean Bridgers, could be right out of my family, he has that "Kentucky" look), but why bring Chris Nelms and his father and the senator's protection of Nelms into it, if Trey killed Hanna? Especially now? Chris' behavior is peculiar, too.

What's the theory, is all I'm asking.


reply

My take (mostly going on the last two episodes): Nelms had sex with Hannah. Statutory rape. Trey went back. Hannah may well have been raped by Trey previously. She turned him down, making him angry and violent. Denied what he wanted, he strangled her. Once silver spoon Nelms' father showed up, Trey saw a way to turn this to his advantage. Nelms was protected by the powers that be. Daniel quickly became the fall guy. Nelms does not seem to have guessed that Trey, rather than Daniel, was the killer. Trey said they should have their stories straight in case Hannah made a fuss. This was very clever, as at that point only Trey knew Hannah was dead.

reply

I figure it was either Chris or Trey and McKinnon was satisfied with letting the audience know it was not Daniel; but not so interested in clearly identifying the murderer.

reply

History has reset with the announcement that the case will be reopened. And Trey and Chris will be Trey and Chris yet again: Trey actively working the police to try and allay their suspicions of him, while Chris hides out in his home trying to decide whether to come out.

reply

Unbelievable they didn't give us the answer to the question we've wondered for so long. Yes it matters. Its television and we deserve to know what happened after 4 years of patiently waiting.

reply

Here's my take: We should have gotten a flashback at the river that night. Trey or Chris killed her and the other one saw it. We should have gotten a flashback with the Senator speaking with Roger Nelms (I know he was the prosecutor at the time I just always refer to him as the Senator). I think Roger told the Senator exactly what happened and the Senator told him to sit on it cause he had a kid who had already confessed. Lastly, I think the Senator convinced George to testify that he saw Daniel raping Hannah to corroborate the confession in court. The senator should have went down. I think the Senator tried to convince Trey to testify against Daniel as well that he saw him raping her too but he wouldn't only that he saw them arguing. That tells me something right there as well. Chris is the killer.

reply

I think this is a good take on what happened.

I'm not convinced Trey killed Hanna because of what he told Daggett. He knew his own contribution to that night, but he also knew Chris Nelms was "protected" and that Daniel was sacrificed, by Foulkes and others. Yes, Trey was worried about his own future, bitter at what he'd lost, even if his own fault. That doesn't make what he said a lie.

If Nelms has no guilt, why does he behave as if he does? Why did his father conspire with Foulkes to keep him out of it?

reply

Why did his father conspire with Foulkes to keep him out of it?

Because Roger knew his son raped Hanna, and that was a huge threat to Chris's future. Even worse, as a lawyer himself, Roger also knew that rape constituted possible motive for killing the girl. He knew LE would have no choice but to consider Chris a murder suspect if the rape admission got out.

If Nelms has no guilt, why does he behave as if he does?

I think Nelms feels shame, not so much guilt. He doesn't like to be exposed. He knows he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder. He expresses shame about gang raping her, of course only once his hand was forced with the DNA evidence, and we see him working very hard to distance himself from that feeling and the act itself.

His behaviour also reveals bitter anger, not guilt, in the scene with the TV and his daughter. His crime, previously hidden, is about to go very public as key testimony in the new investigation. Everyone will know, in particular his daughter and wife. He doesn't need to be found the actual murderer to have his life destroyed.

I'm not sure how many patients are going to continue to see an admitted rapist -- and not only that, but a guy who by not admitting the truth of the rape could have spared another man going down for that charge, which in turn would have undermined LE's case for that man murdering the girl, the key to his ultimately being sent away to endure 20 years in solitary confinement on death row.

Chris allowed his own potential motive for murder to be falsely attributed to Daniel. The awful irony of his words to George, who threatened to tell the truth:

NELMS
I thought it was, uh, a noble
idea, but I didn't think it was
a good one.

SONDRA
Why not?

NELMS
I told him it was too late. It
wouldn't change anything.
In fact, it It would ruin a lot
of lives.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

His behaviour also reveals bitter anger, not guilt, in the scene with the TV and his daughter.



Sorry, but I think that's a reach. I don't see how you can read "bitter anger" rather than guilt or fear in that brief scene in which he turns off the tv and tells his daughter it's nothing.

reply

The ground you've provided for your complaint is that you can't see. To help you see I would direct you to his facial expression and tone of voice.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Fair enough.

But I still don't see "bitter anger". You do, but it's not a fait accompli, just what you see....as in what I don't see.

Unless, and perhaps you can, point me to the script that reads: actor expresses bitter anger.



reply

[deleted]

But the show was not about who killed Hanna Dean; it was about what would it be like for a released former death row inmate to try to readjust to life in his home town, both for him, his family, and other townspeople. I do think McKinnon provided enough in the finale to indicate Daniel was not guilty of killing Hanna and for me that is enough.

reply

[deleted]

"It's television."

Apparently you see no distinctions between any dramas on television, because they are on television. They must be limited to making things definitive, say by using flashbacks to lead us by the hand. They are not allowed to leave it at providing circumstantial evidence so viewers must use their imaginations, and add two plus two to get four on their own. They can't leave any ambiguity, any room for doubt.

Room for doubt was part of the meaning and quality of what was being said.

You should not be surprised by this kind of ending. The story signaled early that it wasn't likely to be the kind to take viewers by the hand and literally show them "the truth." It signaled this by consistently avoiding making characters and events simplistic, reduceable, and instead presented contextual information by which we could, on our own, work out ways to understand.

That strategy was one of the major ways the story encouraged deep engagement in viewers. The goal was viewer participation all the way through, by refusing to deliver the usual passive experience of handing out pre-digested answers as most TV shows do. (This is why the character Chloe was such a disappointment.)

This approach is faithful to the experience of life, at least much of the time. And there is no exception to that in formal justice, where most convictions are obtained based on circumstantial evidence.

Ambiguity was the story's stock-in-trade from the start. It celebrated the mystery of human experience -- as both an aggravation and a precious value.

Breaking that guiding principle -- that poetic sensibility -- and making everything about the crime crystal clear at the very end would have deeply disrespected viewers. It would have robbed them of the pleasure of working out circumstantial evidence in order to intuit, if not perfectly understand, character and event.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

I get what you're saying just personal preference to liking a different style ending than you. But, you can phrase the reasons "why not" as eloquently as you like but I don't believe 1 person watching would have said, "Well damn, I didn't want to know who the killer was."

reply

It's not about not wanting to know who the killer was, it's about different preferences of HOW the killer is revealed.

We both want to know who the killer was. Where we differ is that you're unsatisfied by being presented with circumstantial evidence you can use to work out the answer for yourself.

As mentioned, to have the killer revealed directly, for example though devices like a flashback to 20 years ago, would totally violate the nature of the show, because from day one it's emphasized that the truth usually can't be perfectly known, that most of the time it's revealed by paying close attention to circumstantial evidence.

In this case the evidence very strongly points to one individual. But you do have to exert some effort; it's not a passive experience.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

would totally violate the nature of the show,



But the entirety of Season 4 basically violated the nature of the show. It was very unlike all that had gone before. So why not dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's"?

A writer can leave it ambiguous if he likes, but sometimes it's a cop out, an unwillingness to commit, especially in a tv series, where producers and the network often want to keep everyone happy. Making it clear is not bad writing, either, because if the writer, the creator, who made it all up, doesn't know who did it, who does?

reply

The case is more polluted than the Chattahoochee River.


Rectify - parody pix
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TLG67x/

reply

i beg to differ, i think the whole town is in De NILE,.....sorry i had to

reply

Great show will be missed. Maybe one day way down the road Ray will let us in on the killer in an interview or something.

reply

Except Ray did let us in on the killer. He's never going to be more explicit because he wouldn't want to spoil the pleasure for new viewers of working out the circumstantial evidence he so carefully laid in. There's no way any writer would work so hard to make that strategy work -- and it's bloody hard -- only to sabotage it later, just to pander to a totally different sensibility.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

yeah if you read interviews with him, and read between the line,
it is pretty obvious that he implies "in the version he saw" that it seemed like daniel was innocent,

but said it was open to interpretations, and even said his interpretation in 10 years might be totally different

I just hope his next project is so good, and he snaps up Aden Young as the villain and Walton Goggins as the protagonist,(if things were ever really that cut and dry)
was Foulkes the villain? was Trey the villain? Chris? Daniels rapists,
or just PTSD and small town ignorance

i am really surprised walton goggins didn't have a guest role or even a cameo considering he was the first choice for Daniel,
and is Ray's best friend, i believe they run a company together

reply

even said his interpretation in 10 years might be totally different

Ray says "there's no definitive interpretation," and that's true because he presents circumstantial evidence, not definitive evidence like - God help us - a flashback to 20 years ago.

That said, the circumstantial evidence he laid out does very strongly imply a particular character. That character threw a curve in at the last possible moment by bringing up the story of Chris's hand. Trey the inveterate liar and manipulator who suddenly realizes the circumstantial evidence does actually lead to him.

What he needs right then is some reasonable doubt. So he plants it. His word against Chris's. Can't be disproved. Just like it was his word that Daniel was arguing with Hanna. Can't be disproved.

And still: "Trey went back."


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

And still: "Trey went back."
Also the attempted framing of Daniel. It seems like a lot of viewers have simply forgotten about that, or somehow never considered why Trey did it.

Then there's the psychopathy indicators, the keeping of the trophy in form of hair tie, etc., I'm sure I'm forgetting more things.

Ray can say whatever he wants, but the writing bent over backwards to tell us Trey's the killer.

"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."

reply

Exactly.

Another thing: Trey focuses entirely on motive, claiming he had none on the basis he didn't rape Hanna. He says Chris was always the one with the motive because he knew he raped Hanna, whereas Trey never thought he did.

But this argument doesn't hold because what Trey thought he did is beside the point. The point is of course what Hanna thought -- and what she thought would weigh heavily as his motive regardless of his own opinion of what happened.

"Not going down for" rape is the same phrase Chris recalled Trey saying when he threatened "or else" if Chris and George didn't keep quiet, as Trey said to Daggett on two separate occasions. This is motive.

Trey is so invested in convincing others that Hanna would never turn him down that in his mind she disappears as a relevant, independent agent whose own feelings count for a great deal in terms of his motive. Which is typical for a psychopath. He's inflated this point of pride of being able to get sex from her any time he wants into something like an overriding law of nature, a defense that magically eliminates any motive for killing her.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply



"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."

reply

Truth test: Do you think Trey would've tried the "no motive" thing on Sondra? The "bitch?"

No wonder he's pissed that Daggett tells him to tell it to the GBI.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Truth test: Do you think Trey would've tried the "no motive" thing on Sondra? The "bitch?"
Good question.

Tentatively (we can never know after all), I would guess not. I don't think he's a genius social engineer, but he'd understand enough about the male/female dichotomy to know she'd need a different approach. And he might mess it up; he might try a pity play on her, which is often effective with women, but in her case would only make it all the more obvious what he was doing when he tried to point the finger at Chris.

Now I wanna see that conversation! ;-)

Also, I hadn't realized how very well drawn Sondra was until just now.

"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."

reply

see i am going for trey being the murderer, because :trey went back:, and because he has never told a straight story beginning with the interrogation back in 1994
that line "we thought he was protecting a friend"
if he is a full blown narcissistic psychopath he doesn't need a motive,
and that "friend he was protecting" most likely is just himself, narcissists when they feel threatened act in different ways,
trey obviously is smarter then he looks and sounds,
when he takes Georges stuff and puts it in the ammo box, and has his gloves and reading glasses on, he looks so calculating and sinister

one thing that stands out, if treys dna was not on the panties, whose was the third sample,


reply

Except Ray did let us in on the killer.



If it's so clear, then it's not ambiguous. He did "spoil the pleasure for new viewers of working out the circumstantial evidence he so carefully laid in" if you're as convinced as you say you are, making any other theory untenable, that Trey killed Hanna.

I don't think McKinnon worked hard. I think he took the easy way -- and provided hints both ways. "Trey went back" is one, and Trey's rather impassioned protest to Daggett, and the business about Chris' hand being bitten -- something that may be easy to prove -- and Chris Nelms' reaction to the tv, is another. But I don't blame him for taking the easy way. He writes for and works in tv; his future is undoubtedly there. He'd like to write and run another series, I'm sure. Anything else he can save for his novel.

If it's as obvious as you think it is, then his declining to say one way or the other is deliberate, so that fans can have it both ways. That's different than not wanting to spoil it for new viewers.

reply

[deleted]

Again, there's a measure of ambiguity because the evidence is circumstantial, not definitive like a flashback. That's always the case. Yet that circumstantial evidence is also very strong. Other theories lack the same amount and explicitness of evidence.

Why wouldn't Trey be "rather impassioned" after realizing he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder?

How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?

Chris' reaction to the TV doesn't imply specifically that he murdered Hanna. He's about to have his participation in the gang rape exposed, and his covering it up, which got someone else sent to prison. Of course he'd be upset, his life is about to implode.

The business about McKinnon working for TV and his future is just cynical fancy and should be dismissed.

McKinnon laid out strong circumstantial evidence, so to suddenly be more explicit would spoil the pleasure of piecing it together. The arrangement of various evidence allows fans to have it any way they want, which is of course necessary to the enjoyment of working through it, weighing pieces, thinking about context, and so on. What one may want isn't necessarily the same as what may be the most cogent synthesis of the evidence.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Why wouldn't Trey be "rather impassioned" after realizing he's now a suspect in Hanna's murder?




You could say the same thing about Chris Nelms. Won't he also be a suspect?

How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?


Perhaps there's a scar. Perhaps someone else saw it -- Chris' mother or father, who under oath would have to perjure themselves. The very idea that it happened, and might be proven, would be enough to make Chris nervous. Why would Trey say that, particularly, if it didn't happen? Why not make up something else -- scratches on his face, his back....some other form of "proof"?

The business about McKinnon working for TV and his future is just cynical fancy and should be dismissed.
/quote]

Not at all. Why is that cynical, it's true, isn't it? He does work in tv, it is, probably, his future; I doubt he sees it in some romanticized mystical way, or, indeed, but as a practical, pragmatic truth. Which is how I meant it.

[quote]McKinnon laid out strong circumstantial evidence, so to suddenly be more explicit would spoil the pleasure of piecing it together.


The evidence has been all over the place. George committed suicide very early in the series. Why? Because of guilt? We might be supposed to think so. We are shown a scrunchy that Trey kept; why? As a souvenir? Daniel doesn't remember what happened. Why? Because he's blocked it out, doesn't want to, because he's guilty? Or because of mushrooms and trauma? Some viewers were even suggesting that the senator did it, which is absurd but points up the variety of suspects.

The arrangement of various evidence allows fans to have it any way they want, which is of course necessary to the enjoyment of working through it,


It's the way a mystery novelist works. A good writer presents many possibilities of whodunit. Unless it's a different kind of mystery in which the "mystery" is not about who did it but how it affects the person or whether he gets away with it (Crime and Punishment). McKinnon followed the formula, made more interesting by having a character released who went to prison as a teenager and spent 20 years on death row for a crime he may not have committed. The dynamics of that, his re-emergence into society, his conflicts with family and the community and authority, was the second prong of a two-prong story, the other being who actually killed Hanna. The mystery of who did it was actually the lesser part of it. But this is tv, with tv audiences, and a "who shot JR" storyline is a ratings winner.

The mystery writer almost always pays the reader off at the end. That McKinnon didn't is, I think, less about dramatic or artistic license and more about keeping everyone happy....or at least able to write their own ending.

But we can disagree. We have before. And probably will again.

reply

Nelms will be a suspect. As noted, the story supplied very strong circumstantial evidence pointing to Trey. Viewers have also been given knowledge of evidence not known to LE within the story world.

Why would Trey say that, particularly, if it didn't happen?

I've already spoken to that. Muddy the waters. That's Trey's stock-in-trade. See his entire exchange with Daniel in George's trailer. He's an ace opportunist. It was made obvious by the finale that Trey is an expert, inveterate liar, and that he does it well under pressure.

Similarly, the scar story is about muddying the waters. But it won't help because there's other evidence against him. Not to mention, Nelms has already admitted to rape, that it wasn't consensual. Trey doesn't know that.

Trey is the one denying he raped Hanna, because in his mind that's an impossibility. Nelms is scum, but he's not that supremely arrogant. He isn't the one who's acted as if he were entitled to Hanna Dean's vagina, "anytime [he] wants."

The "perhaps" stuff doesn't make the scar "something that may be easy to prove" as motive for murder, let alone for murder itself. Even if an old scar still existed it wouldn't prove Hanna bit him. There's no way to prove perjury, either. And Roger Nelms is hardly going to have any qualms about saying he didn't see a scar.

I'm not going to indulge personal innuendo about the writer that supposedly explains the reason why on-screen content is the way it is. The claim that the writer took "the easy way" can be addressed based on content alone; however, your claim of why he supposedly wrote it is based on a fantasy of his inner life, and of course that can't be addressed.

The evidence is "all over the place," but not in the sense of incoherence. Where it was put is meaningful.

Why? Because of guilt? We might be supposed to think so.

Of course we're supposed to think so. The evidence of guilt being the "rot" inside him was overwhelming. It came from several sources, George included.

McKinnon couldn't have been more explicit or consistent with the idea that Trey considered Hanna property. He kept a piece of that property.

Daniel doesn't remember because he was high on a psychotropic drug. Reinforcing this, we see him blank out at Lezly's after taking drugs.

You've claimed this incoherence before, for example in reference to why Daniel took apart the kitchen. In that case you hadn't accounted for the entire episode prior to the event, which informed it. Same thing when you were mystified by Daniel sabotaging the pool -- you hadn't accounted for significant events in his plot prior to that event. Same thing now with the evidence supposedly being "all over the place." You blame the writer, but the problem is with the quality of your perception.

That some viewers thought the Senator did it is setting an extremely low bar. It's also unproductive due to obfuscation. Again, the evidence isn't incoherent unless we decide not to weigh it. Then of course it's a jumble, "all over the place," one thing no more meaningful than another.

Relatedly, there are different kinds of mystery writers. This one gave us circumstantial evidence; the pleasure of working it out, of weighing it, could obviously only happen if there is some ambiguity. Otherwise there's no need to add two plus two since the calculation is done for us.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Well, I effed up my own response, mistakenly including my comments in a quote, but I'm glad you could make sense of them


I've already spoken to that. Muddy the waters. That's Trey's stock-in-trade. See his entire exchange with Daniel in George's trailer. He's an ace opportunist. It was made obvious by the finale that Trey is an expert, inveterate liar, and that he does it well under pressure.


I meant why that particular "lie" if it was a lie? Instead of some other "lie". If it was a lie then of course it was to muddy the water. But you don't know that it was a lie. If McKinnon is a) as ambiguous as you claim, or b) as clear as you claim, Trey was either telling the truth or making up lies. I say he could as well be telling the truth. A scar on the hand would bear out what Trey says, assuming, of course, that he didn't know Chris has a scar on his hand from some other cause. And Roger Nelms can say he doesn't remember a bite on the hand, but if he outright lies that Chris had a bite on his hand -- and there's a scar to prove it and someone else remembers, or Chris in his panic admits it -- that's a different matter. If Chris raped Hanna, who's to say he didn't also kill her? That's certainly motive; he had a reputation at stake, and fear of his father. Trey had less, especially if, as he says, he had sex with Hanna regularly. Yes, it's still statutory rape but Chris had more to lose than did Trey.

McKinnon couldn't have been more explicit or consistent with the idea that Trey considered Hanna property. He kept a piece of that property.


Just because he considered her property, doesn't mean he killed her. Teddy considered Tawney property, too. Do you think he was capable of murdering her?

your claim of why he supposedly wrote it is based on a fantasy of his inner life


This is a ridiculous assertion. I don't make any claim to a fantasy of his inner life. I'm saying outright that the man writes for television; it's how he earns his living, while also working as an actor. His "fantasy life," whatever you imagine that to be, has nothing to do with his practical decision as to how to end a tv series that he created. I'm saying, and I may be wrong but it's my opinion, based on what I perceive from how Season 4 is written, that he wrote an ending that was aimed at keeping everyone happy: viewers, producers, the network, sponsors. In a practical and realistic world, which is where we live, he is answerable to all of them. I assume he'd like to write for them again, or someone else. You've said yourself that Season 4 is a departure from Seasons 1-3. I maintain that it was a purely businesslike resolution to a creative juncture. And by no means do I see any shame in that. It's a commercial enterprise, writing for tv, and one does what one needs to do to succeed. It's not a matter of his turning his back on his muse, or denying his creativity. It's simply a matter of choosing a way that satisfies the majority. I doubt he has any problem living with his choice.

You've claimed this incoherence before, for example in reference to why Daniel took apart the kitchen. In that case you hadn't accounted for the entire episode prior to the event, which informed it. Same thing when you were mystified by Daniel sabotaging the pool -- you hadn't accounted for significant events in his plot prior to that event. Same thing now with the evidence supposedly being "all over the place." You blame the writer, but the problem is with the quality of your perception.


Will you stop about the kitchen already! Daniel tore up his own mother's kitchen. Whether he did it out of anger or because he wanted to finish the remodel is immaterial, really. He spilled paint in the swimming pool. He was destructive in both cases; his motives don't matter and are not excuses and really not important. The reality is this was McKinnon's way of sustaining doubt as to Daniel's innocence. If he could do these things, what else is he capable of?

Sorry, but I think the writer is to blame when perception is an issue. Full stop. I'm not stupid or incapable of "getting it". I just disagree with you about what "it" is.

Relatedly, there are different kinds of mystery writers. This one gave us circumstantial evidence; the pleasure of working it out, of weighing it, could obviously only happen if there is some ambiguity. Otherwise there's no need to add two plus two since the calculation is done for us.


Actually, having Trey be the killer is the mundane answer, no surprise at all really. Because he's been portrayed that way (to quote Jessica Rabbit) from the start. He's always been unpleasant, untrustworthy, suspicious. A real twist -- the kind the best mystery writers manage -- would be to make Chris the killer. The nice kid, the one with promise, the one with a future, who goes on to become a doctor, the one nobody ever suspected. And 20 years later his life is interrupted and ruined because of something he did 20 years ago when he was a kid, in a mad, impulsive, panicky, uncharacteristic moment. When he got caught up in something with other boys that he would never have done on his own.

That's the kind of ending most people appreciate.

reply

I say he could as well be telling the truth.

A psychopathic, inveterate liar, arch-manipulator, and you think he could just as well be telling the truth? In that case I've got prime beachfront property for you at an amazing price! Sign here, press hard!

Chris had more to lose than did Trey.

Sure, if you discount Trey's pride, his assumption of ownership, which he reiterated at every opportunity.

Just because he considered her property, doesn't mean he killed her. Teddy considered Tawney property, too. Do you think he was capable of murdering her?

False equivalence. When talking circumstantial evidence, it's not the one thing.

I don't make any claim to a fantasy of his inner life... I assume he'd like to write for them again, or someone else.

Ascribing motive. Fantasizing the man's inner life. I choose not to indulge that kind of speculation. It's empty.

Whether he did it out of anger or because he wanted to finish the remodel is immaterial, really.

Whoa, a revealing statement there. The motivation of the protagonist is "immaterial?" It's only material to understanding the man at all. You were the one who claimed the absurdities that he was "emotionless" and "unable to interact with anyone." And that we can't understand Daniel, just speculate about him. But when actual context that was presented on-screen is supplied so you can understand Daniel, suddenly it's "immaterial."

You don't disagree with what "it" is, you treat "it" like kryptonite. The problem hasn't been with the writing in these cases, but with both lack of perception and an aversion to sharpening it by even acknowledging context you'd missed.

The reality is this was McKinnon's way of sustaining doubt as to Daniel's innocence. If he could do these things, what else is he capable of?

LOL. Dude spilled paint over his own work! He tried to start a renovation on his mother's kitchen without any skillset! He could be capable of murder! Except this runs totally contrary to prior events that had direct and blatant relevance to his behaviour in these scenes. Set up / payoff. Until you recognize this stuff you'll either stay perplexed or mischaracterize.

The last bit doesn't address the point, which was about the kind of mystery that leaves readers with circumstantial evidence so they can have the pleasure of working it out. You're talking about something different: the particular kind of character such evidence points to.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Anything else I could say to your responses would just be repeating myself, so I won't.

But:

LOL. Dude spilled paint over his own work! He tried to start a renovation on his mother's kitchen without any skillset! He could be capable of murder! Except this runs totally contrary to prior events that had direct and blatant relevance to his behaviour in these scenes. Set up / payoff. Until you recognize this stuff you'll either stay perplexed or mischaracterize.


You're actually describing petulant behavior. He tore out cabinets without having anything to replace them with and made his family's kitchen unusable: childish, petulant. He spilled paint into a pool he had spent cleaning and scraping; childish, petulant.

But he wasn't angry, huh?

I'm not perplexed. I'm perfectly happy with my perception and interpretation of the characters, the scenes, the writing, the series. You're the one who seems troubled by it.

reply

[deleted]

I don't claim any knockouts, and I'm sure Whatlarks would disagree if I did, but thank you, anyway, Sign.

reply

You've claimed that Daniel is "emotionless" and "unable to interact with anyone." These are absurdities, and they arise from seriously flawed perception.

Same thing with your insistence that we can't understand the character enough and have to merely speculate about him.

Lately you've referred to circumstantial evidence as being "all over the place," implying incoherence. This is caused by the same flawed perception.

You've simply repeated your mischaracterization of the kitchen scene -- still avoiding 9/10ths of the episode that led up to it which supplied all the context necessary to understanding his state of mind.

When it is understood, the consequence for the character emotionally - and vicariously for the viewer - is far more significant than some temporary outburst of petulant anger. The reason is because the distance between desire and result is far greater.

You can't have this experience if you miss that crucial context gradually built up over the whole episode.

I outlined that context. His behaviour could seem "petulant" and "angry" only if you don't recognize what inspired him to do this and are seeing the event as if it occurred in a vacuum. Because his act was not informed by anger; there was no petulance about it.

As for the pool, the character's anger -- actually a specific kind of anger -- has never been denied; the problem has been that you've claimed there's no way to understand it. Yet I outlined the influential context that, again, led to this moment. But like the context in "Donald the Normal," you've never acknowledged it.

This is why I asked you to say if you think this context even exists. Yes or no. You wouldn't even do that. That's extreme.

What is the value of participating in discussion of a work if one is dedicated to avoiding whole chunks of it? It means significant aspects of the work just can't be explored with you. What about the spirit of discovery? Holding to a partial view limits potential experience. Like with the kitchen scene, the impact won't be nearly what it can be if prior context is able to affect you, as intended. Referring you to this context is a gift, mme3924-1.

I think I'm troubled by your position because avoiding context is a choice, not an inherent limitation of some kind. I mentioned that criticism of this context would be reasonable because it would mean actually acknowledging it. But it's hardly reasonable to avoid it, continue to wildly mischaracterize, and blame the writer.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

When it is understood, the consequence for the character emotionally - and vicariously for the viewer - is far more significant than some temporary outburst of petulant anger. The reason is because the distance between desire and result is far greater.


You consistently argue both sides of this coin. You argue for absolutes, what we see on the screen, what is evidenced by a character's dialogue, what is tangible and empirical. And then you interpret scenes according to your own perception and perspective. that are esoteric, that are not absolute and clear, as when you see "joy" in a man and a boy's tentative smiles, or when you describe what Daniel -- and others -- are thinking and feeling.


What is the value of participating in discussion of a work if one is dedicated to avoiding whole chunks of it? It means significant aspects of the work just can't be explored with you. What about the spirit of discovery? Holding to a partial view limits potential experience. Like with the kitchen scene, the impact won't be nearly what it can be if prior context is able to affect you, as intended. Referring you to this context is a gift, mme3924-1.



I have to wonder why, believing this, you have responded to any of my posts.


But it's hardly reasonable to avoid it, continue to wildly mischaracterize, and blame the writer.



My blaming the writer seems to be your major complaint. I doubt that Ray McKinnon himself would be so offended. Writers know that the moment they put themselves "out there" -- which is what they do when published or when they put their names on a film or tv series/episode, that they will get feedback, some of it not positive. What I have done is what criticism is; I've never attacked McKinnon personally; I've addressed his work, what I've seen on the screen and what was, presumably, on the page. Just because you disagree with me, doesn't make me "wrong"....or "right." Or you either.

reply

Again, the choice to avoid the context supplied for consideration.

Why is that?


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Again, the choice to avoid the context supplied for consideration.

Why is that?



Perhaps it's because I don't always understand your points, precisely what you are saying, or even what you want from me. I give you answers and you reject them as insufficient, inadequate, or say I lack comprehension or perspective, or am just plain wrong. I don't mind being told I'm wrong -- since it doesn't necessarily mean I am wrong -- but it's not helpful, either. Or you do what you did in response to Cliff: complain about his asking about a tipping point as unnecessary. He asked you where you thought "uncommon" fell on balance, and instead of answering him, you attacked his question/comment. That prevents you having to defend your previous assertion/comment, but it doesn't further the discussion.

You are, perhaps, too esoteric, too erudite, for flatfooted me.

reply

Again, you avoid the context presented for the kitchen and pool scenes.

You avoided it when first presented in answer to your stated perplexity. When asked if you thought the context even existed, yes or no, you didn't answer.

Why have you been so averse to even looking at the context informing these scenes?


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

[deleted]

He will quibble over semantics.



With this, I can -- kind of -- agree. Whatlarks does seem to get hung up on how one says something.


The rest is Sign being Sign, which requires No Comment.


But "he" should, I'm pretty sure, be "she". I think Whatlarks is female.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

How would Chris' hand being bitten be "easy to prove" twenty years later?
What's it matter anyway?

Let's assume Hanna did bite Chris, and it somehow can be demonstrated.

How does that have anything to do with who killed her?

We know that Chris, George, and Trey all raped Hanna.

Women and girls have been known to fight their rapists.

"Oh, I'll be polite. Right up until I'm rude."

reply

You're right. It matters only as far as it's useful to muddying the water. And as mentioned, Trey doesn't know that Chris has already admitted to raping Hanna.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Cormac McCarthy wrote a splendid book called The Road. Take place in post-apocalypse America, but not, say a zombie apocalypse. Maybe a war; maybe natural phenomenon.

At various times he has said he knows what happens; at other times he has said he doesn't. What matters to him is what happens to the people in the novel - the who, not the how.

I think something like that happened here. We are not going to get closure as we did with Six Feel Under, where we learned what happened to all the major characters.

reply

Cormac McCarthy wrote a splendid book called The Road. Take place in post-apocalypse America, but not, say a zombie apocalypse. Maybe a war; maybe natural phenomenon.

At various times he has said he knows what happens; at other times he has said he doesn't. What matters to him is what happens to the people in the novel - the who, not the how.



I agree about how splendid The Road is. I disagree that the mystery of what happened is in any way parallel to Rectify. The Road was clearly about what happened AFTERWARDS, about survival, about love and commitment and a father's protection and care of his son, not only to make sure he survives but that he learns how to live. He wants his child to be a moral, thinking, just and honorable person, not just someone who survives but may be as savage as the hordes who roam the country. In fact, I believe McCarthy has said that he wrote The Road for his son. A quote from Guillaume du Bartas is on the flyleaf: "My lovely living boy/My hope, my happiness/My love, my life, my joy."

Rectify is about a man who lost 20 years of his life, perhaps unjustly. And it is about why that happened. But at the heart of why is a crime, and someone was responsible for that crime, not the same someones -- the senator and sheriff -- who were responsible for Daniel's conviction and incarceration, but someone who should have been tried in Daniel's place....assuming he is innocent. It's not absolutely necessary to know who committed that murder, but it wouldn't have been unreasonable, either, to know. It was a reasonable expectation of the audience.

reply

"Closure" is a strange concept when you get down to it.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

I would like t have known, Charlotte, but McKinnon has said from day 1 that that wasn't the point of this series.

reply

[deleted]

Didn't Trey shoot George?

reply

No, he didn't. In the final scene of the pilot episode, we watch George put the gun to his head and shoot himself. No one else around.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

George took his own life

reply

If we would have gotten a flashback everyone would have been happy. Those who say the show ended perfectly like it did so on and so forth would have been saying the same thing likewise. Even more so probably.

reply

But we actually see George shoot himself in the head. There's no need for a flashback about that.

I think your disappointment is understandable, Charlotte, because you've had hope for a definitive, unambiguous result, which this kind of story wasn't going to deliver.

Instead, it ended on strong circumstantial evidence, an approach in keeping with its nature right from the start. It was always going to deliver a different kind of satisfaction than the one you prefer.

The story's creator obviously recognized the fact that in human affairs the truth is not usually definitive and without at least some ambiguity. He wanted to explore that dramatically. So it would be unfaithful to that intent to suddenly come up with a perfect picture of what happened, that proved beyond all doubt who the bad guy was.

Doing such a thing would be perceived, rightly, as blatant cheating by fans who recognized the nature of the story. It would deliver a fake ending, totally out of sync with what came before.

The Rectify approach is very unlike the usual TV stories we're weaned on since birth, which re-tell the comforting lie that the truth can often be known to complete certainty. In such stories, the tell-all flashback exists, unlike in real life. Same thing for its physical manifestation, in the form of Talking Villain Syndrome.

These kind of stories truly take place in a magic world, a world we wish for because it would be much more convenient than our own. However, the cost of existing in that magic omniscient world would be great, precisely because there would never be any doubt, any mystery. Mystery is a gift, and the human psyche has made much of it.

Rectify is about our kind of world, not the magic wish-fulfilling world of the usual TV stories. In our world, most cases in law are resolved based on circumstantial evidence rather than, say, some kind of perfect recordings of the crimes.

I think this aspect of criminal law has relevance to human relations in general, and I think the story dealt with that. We can't definitively know one another, or even our own selves. And yet we carry on despite this overriding mystery. It's a wondrous thing. We tell stories, and some of them are more honest than others.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

[deleted]

Well stated, but everything you mention about the stories meaning still works for me and I'm sure many others if they reveal who the killer is.

For me it's no different than say the end of True Detective season 1. When it was all said and done we got to meet the Yellow King, and as Tawney would say it was glorious. There were plenty of little details in that story we wanted answers to but never got to learn. But that was okay.

reply

SPOILERS

I found the ending of TD S1 to be uninspired and anticlimactic. The Yellow King is just a crude whacko, Cohle miraculously survives near disembowelment, then literally "sees the light" while in a coma.

Gaak! I wanted a better reward for putting up with the misogyny.


"You must not judge what I know by what I find words for." - Marilynne Robinson

reply

Now if only Rust Cohle would have been the detective assigned to Daniels case, he would have made it rain.

reply

[deleted]

Sign, you actually think Daniel is the killer?

reply

[deleted]

Interesting point of view. Nothing in my mind points to Daniel being the killer. 70/30 split for me at this point 70 goes to Trey and 30 to Chris. Trey always had too many answers for everything and the more I think about the statement that Trey went back gives us the answer we're all wondering right there.

reply

[deleted]

If ray velcoro was the sheriff at his time, Daniel would have been his brother in law,
things would have definitely went different,

the coffee cracking would have been much better

reply

if you can't come to your own conclusions on what happened, maybe this wasn't the show for you,
check out NCIS, and its like, they solve the mystery every episode:)

reply

Gibbs always gets his man, and it only takes 1 hour.

reply

Gideon was better!!

reply