MovieChat Forums > Black Mirror (2011) Discussion > It scares me that some people side with ...

It scares me that some people side with the hackers in Shut Up And Dance


As others have said on this board, punishment for consumers of the child sex trade is important, but if you think that the guilty should be forced to fight to the death with their bare hands for entertainment, then good god.

The whole episode is a very Clockwork Orange-style story about how the desire to punish bad people can turn us into sadists instead of jurors--that's how I saw it, anyway. The fact that Kenny's real crime isn't revealed until the very end is a brilliant Hitchcock sort of twist--it means that some viewers who sympathized with his cruel torment before will now just agree with it in an instant.

If you must blink, do it now.

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The punishment works because the feelings we have on pedophiles are really that powerful. It's a visceral reaction and not something that can be reasoned with. Personally I feel that any pedophile that actually touches a child should die an extremely painful death. Someone who doesn't touch a child (a consumer of child pornography, not sure what sex trade necessarily has to do with it) is still a criminal, and still evokes tremendous disgust, not to mention automatic mistrust. At the very least these people should live in complete isolation from society.


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I don't know about the man he fought to the death, but it was demonstrated in the episode that Kenny was attracted to young children under 10.


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When?

Not only have I never heard that stated by anyone other than you but I even watched every relevant scene with subtitles on in case I missed something. Could not find it.

That then begs the question - if the age was never specified, why did you come to a conclusion that they were under 10? Personally, I wanted the kids to be as old as possible to make it less wrong. If I was allowed to pick the year it would be someone with a jan 1 birthday one year under the legal age so they'd only be one day off, certainly not under 10 years of age. That would be MUCH more unsettling, especially for this character I was just rooting for a minute ago.

Once again - if you can find the spot do tell because that certainly change my perception of the episode a great deal, but I am not sure it exists - and I personally believe the episode is much better for it.

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You missed all the clues, then.

There was a scene where he gave a little girl her doll back. The girl must have been around 6-7. There was another scene where Kenny was standing transfixed by a child's drawing. And, well, when his mother called saying that he was looking at kids, that would not have made sense if she meant teenagers, since he was still a teenager himself.

There were also several scenes that showed that he was completely disconnected from people around his age. Like that girl at work sort of seemed interested, but he could never grunt more than a word or two to her at a time.

I'll probably catch more clues if I re-watch the episode now, already knowing what's what.

Anyway, to answer your initial question, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children - I am not confusing or misusing any terms here.

Not only have I never heard that stated by anyone other than you

You must have not read this board either, then, what can I say... 
This was all mentioned in numerous discussions.

At the end of the episode the viewer is supposed to understand exactly why Kenny was willing to go as far as to rob a bank and kill someone (or kill himself, as he at one point tried) to stop that video from getting out. The final scene removed all doubt.


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Those are pretty weak clues.

Anyone could give a child their doll, anyone could stand transfixed at a child's drawing. There are many reasons they could have chosen to show those things. Child pornography is a major part of the theme - putting the character is a seemingly heart warming scene with a child and then juxtaposing that with the realization he is a pedophile is meant to be alarming, but doesn't mean anything more in itself. Nowhere was a sexual connection ever made between an under 10 child and the main character. A 17 year old is technically a child wher I live. You are either a child or an adult. I know of no in between. People refer to teenagers as children or kids all of the time, especially as you get older.

If the mom said 'little kids' or specified an age - or if he gave an age when asked by the guy in the field we would have known. As is we can only guess. Sometimes things just aren't clear, that's how life is. I understand the need to find something concrete but I don't think you are going to find it. When they had easy, obvious times to give specifics they chose not to. Just like me you are going to have to speculate.

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Yeah, about that... Spoon feeding material to the viewer in minute detail does not make for good art, especially when dealing with such repugnant subject matter. The viewer is supposed to infer. Too bad you seem unable to. 

And no, even before anything was explained for sure it struck me as strange in that very moment that a teenager his age would be that kind and friendly to some random little girl. Most people, especially male, would simply not be interested enough. At the most they would have handed the mother or the daughter the doll, or alerted their attention to the fact that they left it behind, but they wouldn't have tried to make a "moment" out of it.

And please, kids' drawings are garbage to anyone but their parents. The only exception would be some rare case when the child is a born artist.

Oh, and in the episode Kenny is 19.


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You really don't like being wrong, do you. The age was never stated - you thought it was but it wasn't. I would just move on. You aren't going to be able to explain it any better than giving theories. Unless the director comes out and clarifies it you can only grasp at ideas that support your theory, like everyone else.

You have theories that make sense to you (child's art is garbage? come on now) and that's fine - I have theories too. We all do, hence why when you come to discussions on this episode people have wildly different views on the main character (just look around this post). You want your version to be right and that's human, but in this case it's just that.. a version.

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It has nothing to do with me being wrong at all - you just can't seem to realize that when EVERYONE watching understood the episode, but you didn't, it's a problem, and it's not mine.

Please go argue with someone else, this discussion is not interesting to me. It's like you are being purposely obtuse.


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[deleted]

[deleted]

Everyone? By my estimation after looking over threads on the forums - you are in the minority. Not many people were certain the child(ren) was under 10. It is not a common opinion on the boards. That's not opinion - go and check yourself. I can count heads if you like.

Never was the child's age stated. You cant change that fact either.

You lost. Move on. Be more careful before jumping to conclusions. Over the years I have become a pretty careful person with my opinions but I mess up too on the internet. I certainly never admit when I am wrong but after the fact I make a mental note to be more careful next time I type 'you are wrong' to someone.

To be clear - I am not saying your opinion is incorrect - I am merely stating that it is not fact, which you claimed it was. I definitely have a very different artistic interpretation of the episode but that's completely subjective and would not try to proselytize you with it. We are only human after all.

edit: Sorry for the multiple posts there

And lastly I certainly hope people do not think I am a pedophile because I help a child up if they fall really badly and no else is near in the playground because I am a man. I am a stay at home dad with three little ones and worrying that I can't do normal things that moms do because I am giving off a pedo vibe is really discomforting. I hope you don't feel that way and if you do - that you are in the minority.

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You remind me of this one person who after watching the movie Shame kept asking me, "But why do you think there was incest? But how do you know? But what was it in the movie that indicated that?"

Like I said, not interested.


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They made a point to show him running after a parent and her child to give them back some drawing they left behind, in the beginning of the episode. That made him look like a nice guy. Then at the end you find out he was looking at pictures of underage children. That was supposed to make you reinterpret the earlier scene I just mentioned. Just like how the "twist" in the movie Sixth Sense made you reinterpret all the previous scenes in the movie, like when Bruce Willis was having dinner with his wife in that restaurant, and she seemed to be giving him the cold shoulder. I think it's pretty clear he was attracted to children under 10.

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You are wasting your time with that poster.


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I wouldn't trust you around any kids!!

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You lost. Move on.


Wow, jamcmulliniv – she didn't lose, ok? You did. On so many levels.

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Exatara isn't wrong though. You are. It's basically spelled out for you and is the whole crux of the storyline. Sorry you completely missed it but it's true.
The whole point is each character did something sinful. Like adultery or racism and the punishment fit the crime. Now, why would the hackers deem a little tug to be worse than these things? Answer he was looking at young kids. Not only is it patently obvious from this but we also get foreshadowing not once but several times throughout the film.

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I agree, Exatara won this debate hands down. jamcmulliniv came off extremely naive and shameless. He knows he is wrong though. We all know it.

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Those clues were given in the episode to make sense of the ending. If we were to randomly find out he was a pedophile, with little to no evidence, the story wouldn't make sense. Why else would the director have used those scenes?

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Some people are sick in the head, that includes Black Mirror viewers.

That's what the show does such a great job exposing.

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There are several episodes that do this.

Spoilers!!!














Whitebear as an example


But I agree with you. While these crimes are disgusting. You have to realize torture isn't an acceptable punishment. Thank God that people running our countries realize this, at least for now, the world is getting darker by the day with political upheaval the world over.


Phillipines new leader has instituted death squads to shoot drug dealers on sight. A countries rule of law can get pretty bleak very, very quickly.

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The people targeted made their own choices.

"I know this ain't gonna sound good, but I just shot two people."

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You don't choose to be a paedophile. You can try not to act on it though.



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True, but I still felt pity for them. Consider if your deepest darkest secrets were going to be exposed, and someone was blackmailing the hell out of you.

Obviously the pedophilia is an extreme example, which is why the writers chose it, but just some embarrasing, stupid stuff you have done being broadcast to everyone you know. I know I've acted like an ass after a few too many beers, and if anyone recorded it and blackmailed me about posting it on my facebook page I'd be pissed.

That's why that was such a great episode. If one empathize they would understand the dillema that kid was in. And once you realize what he actually was looking at (which was blatantly obvious the whole time since the first scene with him he approaches a kid, duh) you kind of despise him. But realize that his entire life was over considering how much people despise pedophiles.

I read an article a couple weeks ago by the economist about paedophilia and how much society stigmatizes it makes it impossible for people to be treated. It's a very disturbing article to read, because it explains how some paedophiles know their sexual desires are wrong, but can never seek help.

I think watching that episode so soon after reading that article made me see it in a different light. Not defending his actions, obviously, but I suggest you google "economist paedophilia" and read the article. Then maybe watch it again.

I dont think the kid was sadistic, just mentally *beep* and to afraid to seek help. Then again he approached a child at the beginning, but he also seemed attracted to the girl he worked with.

Anyway, enough rambling, but i recommend anyway who thinks that could deserved to be put through that mental torture, a fight to the death, and a lifetime of being ostracized in the most horrible way should read that article. It's not an easy read, and will leave you feeling just like finishing a good black mirror episode. Disturbed and kind of conflicted about what to believe about what you just saw, or in this case read.

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http://www.economist.com/news/international/21704795-understanding-sexual-attraction-children-essential-if-they-are-be-kept

Here is the longest link to the article i could copy on my phone.

In case the link doesnt work the article is called:

Paedophilia: shedding light on the dark field.

I think this is more of what the writers were going for in that episode than to have us conpletely hate the character at the end.

Or like i said I might have went in with a different mindset after reading this article not too lomg before watching the episode, and knowing the kid was a paedo the entire time.

Regardless the article is definitely a view point most people never consider.

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Consider if your deepest darkest secrets were going to be exposed, and someone was blackmailing the hell out of you.
I wouldn't go robbing a damn bank over it, that's for sure.

"I know this ain't gonna sound good, but I just shot two people."

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Pedophiles can be attracted to adults as well as children which is why a lot of then end up married with kids....And the cycle starts.
There was a pretty decent documentary on c4 (which is on Netflix) which I believe was entitled the pedophile next door. The interviewer speaks to a pedophile openly about everything.

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Imo the moral of the story is to never get married and have kids, so you can bang as many hookers as you want.

Another huge plot hole is the main character if he had any brain cells could just claim the hacker trolls linked the child porn to a different vid of him wanking to make it look like he was watching child porn.
Plus his dick would have been under the table so its hardly that bad. I'd just tell everyone i made the video as a joke.

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Imo the moral of the story is to never get married and have kids, so you can bang as many hookers as you want.

Another huge plot hole is the main character if he had any brain cells could just claim the hacker trolls linked the child porn to a different vid of him wanking to make it look like he was watching child porn.
Plus his dick would have been under the table so its hardly that bad. I'd just tell everyone i made the video as a joke.

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Imo the moral of the story is to never get married and have kids, so you can bang as many hookers as you want.

Another huge plot hole is the main character if he had any brain cells could just claim the hacker trolls linked the child porn to a different vid of him wanking to make it look like he was watching child porn.
Plus his dick would have been under the table so its hardly that bad. I'd just tell everyone i made the video as a joke.

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Was Bronn from Game of Thrones a Pedo also? Was he just literally trying to see a prostitute?

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He was seeing a prostitute. That's why his retribution wasn't as bad

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Yeah, I can't imagine him doing all that over adultery. But, again, that's how I knew the kid was a pedo the whole time, and Bronn said the same thing, tons of boys that age masturbate to internet porn, so it was obvious he was looking at something horrible. It would have been insanely embarrasing to have a video of someone jerking it online, but what he was actually doing was life ruining.

I just got married, and would never cheat, but if I was in Bronn's shoes I would definitely say *beep* this when it came to the robbery, and just come clean. I wish this would have happened, as it would show much worse what the kid did was than Bronn, as the kid would rather off himself than come clean.

Also, it was awesome seeing Bronn!!!

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It was life ruining. However, I felt it rather ignorant to think that the videos wouldn't be released anyway. These people had their worse secrets and put them through hell, what was going to stop them from releasing the videos? It's like paying off blackmailer, they always want more money or the secret gets revealed anyway. Did they really think they'd be safe because they did a couple of things they asked? Now, in addition to the pedophilia, Kenny will be charged for armed robbery and possibly involvement in the the other pedophile's death. I guess it shows how far people will go try and protect a horrible secret.

I agree about the husband, when it came to the robbery, at the point I would have walked away and came clean with my spouse. However, it showed no matter what they were going to release the videos anyway and that's what I kept thinking as I watching it, why are they doing any of this? These people are going to release the videos anyway!

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What about the black guy on the scooter? His family seemed disgusted by his porn. Was he a pedo? Why didn't he get to go to PaedoDeathMatch and have a chance to win wonderful prizes?

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They were kind of ambivalent about what the black guy did. I was surprised the woman at the beginning was blackmailed over a racist email, but if you're a celebrity or CEO that can cost you a lot, I mean just look at paula dean and the former owner of the Clippers.

But I think they chose the two Pedos to fight because they did the worst thing, and would be more likely to fight. I doubt the others would have fought to the death to hide a racist commit or an infidelity. I can't comment on what the black guy did.

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Meldove, it's easy to sit in your ivory tower reasoning that the blackmailers will release the videos anyway, so why do what they tell you to do. But if you were in the characters' positions, you might think differently. Sure you'd think that there is no guarantee that they wouldn't release the video or incriminating evidence, but you'd also be desperate and willing to buy into the most wishful of thinking in order to have a chance, yes, a chance, at maintaining your anonymity. You know your goose is cooked if you don't abide by their terms. If the exposure is compromising enough, I think the point the writers/producers were trying to make, is that people who normally would not commit such acts (i.e., robbing banks, fighting another person to the death) would, in fact, commit those acts/crimes.

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They should have rape one another to the death, not fight.

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"Shut Up and Dance" happens in the same series which had "White Bear" where people are ready to pay money to watch a woman suffer through torture just because she and her bf tortured a little girl...

I guess the hackers werent ethical but most likely they were a group of victims who felt every pedophile must suffer... The plotters might be just teens because they were angry with a man who rented a 20 year old escort,had she been 15,there was a logic but as long as both parties agree even on a sum of money,it doesnt need any punishing...

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So his wife who he lives with and sleeps with has no right to know that he's sleeping with a prostitute because they "agreed on a sum of money".

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The twist completely threw me off guard. I didnt like the fact they made Kenny into a Pedo or the fact they made them fight to the death. I think they should have left it as a trolling exercise. But then I guess you dont think about 16 yr olds as Pedo.

So did the hackers call the police and thats how they knew where to find Kenny?

Mmm I think I have to sleep on this one and let it soak in

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He's 19...

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