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The philosophical issues raised by San Junipero

posted 8 years ago by laplante-co-672-297856
9 replies | jump to latest

I see lots of people debating whether uploading your consciousness to some sort of sophisticated VR represents some form of immortality.

It does... but only for the VR copy. Everyone HERE NOW on this board is going to experience biological death... the fading of the light, the stopping of the heart. No avoiding that, my friends.

Uploading your memories only makeS you a memory donor. Your VR copy will thank you because for them it is simply as if they awoke from sleep. They will have memories of a continuous existence.

Here's the REAL conundrum of this episode...

Everyone in San Junipero KNOWS they are in a simulation. But what if they didn't? What if they woke up a VR world completely identical to our world and not the manufactured paradise of San Junipero. They would wake up with a past (YOUR memories) that has always been real as far as they know and they would carry on with their lives.

Now, how do you know that YOU aren't a simulation at this moment? How do you know whether or not somewhere 'OUT THERE' a real version of you died and left their memories to you to carry on?

Can you be sure when you woke up this morning that yesterday actually happened? Or has your life to date been just a manufactured memory? What if all the people around you don't even exist, but are just artificial simulations being fed to you?

It's not quite The Matrix where real bodies were being fed false memories.

I mean what if we are nothing more than fleeting bits of code, and our very senses are simply bits of code too?

And what if someone or something happens 'OUT THERE' to pull the plug on our program?

Sleep tight... ;)

[–] B-J-C 8 years ago

Well some physicists now theorise that our universe is merely a simulation. So who knows? The sad reality is that, simulation or not, our world and our lives are far from perfect. We still experience pain, sickness, death, war and all the other horrors of the world. Considering that, I don't see it makes any difference at all whether the world we experience is 'real' or a simulation. But that's just my cynical side talking.

There's a very interesting video on youtube I saw recently that explores in detail the whole idea of life being a simulation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6Z8zmRBsY

[–] laplante-co-672-297856 8 years ago

Here's something else to ponder...

Right now, you have a sense of right and wrong... certain things you wouldn't do because they would hurt others, or cause others to have a lesser opinion of you.

If you KNEW though that the world around you was just a sophisticated program, would it change how you behave? I mean that a$$hat who cut off you off in traffic? Why not just shoot that mofo? Your dick of a boss? Why not tell him to get *beep*

The counter-argument is that whether everything is real or a program, the end result -- a jail cell, getting fired from your job -- is still going to SEEM the same.

However, that still leaves a lot of leeway to think less about others and more about yourself to achieve certain outcomes for yourself... Things that won't necessarily get you in big trouble and could even have big payoffs for you.

If life really is some sort of big computer game, are there cheat codes somewhere? :D

I will check out your video link thx...

[–] B-J-C 8 years ago

There's a name for this theory in philosophy; the theory that you're the only sentient being in the world. Ever since I heard about it I thought it was absurd. Like the whole world and everyone in it is built for one person? You'd have to be pretty narcissistic to believe that. Of course there's no way to test the theory, so there's no way to prove or disprove it. It's just far easier and makes more sense to assume that everybody is as sentient as you are and to treat them as you'd want to be treated.

Either way, as you say, people are going to treat you as they think you deserve to be treated. So whether you're an a$$ to real people or to simulations that act like real people, the result is the same for you.

[–] vjfoogie 8 years ago

That is why they monitored the use of the program very closely. They didn't want people to lose their minds and not know what was real. It is their thoughts and they live on, when know that because they control their actions, wake up and remember it all.

It is a form of immortality, but like it is stated in the episode....why would you want to live in a world forever that has no meaning? Literally nothing they do matters...there is no risk no reward no anything.

This episode really make me question if heaven is really a gift (if it exists). An endless world where nothing matters....sounds more like a punishment to me. After some thinking I decided that I'm okay if there isn't a heaven, but I want there to be a hell. Yes I'm Christian.

[–] B-J-C 8 years ago

I guess the difference between living forever in a simulation, like in San Junipero, and living forever in the Christian idea of heaven or paradise earth is that in a computer simulation, you have nothing but the simulation and the other people in the simulation with you. One of the goals of Christianity is getting to know God and Jesus Christ and becoming perfect in their image. The only common thread is the idea of living forever. As a Christian myself I would love to live forever with the purpose of being taught by God, but the idea of living forever in a Godless computer simulation with nothing to live for does seem bleak and empty.

However I did feel happy for Kelly and Yorkie at the end. You can't apply religious ideas to a TV show where they're not discussed and don't apply. Kelly didn't believe in a natural afterlife, so she chose an artificial one. Even with no distinct 'purpose', life in San Junipero sure looked better than death or rotting away in a care home.

[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Look at the ethical dilemmas that Bill Murray faced in Groundhog Day, which I consider one of the great movies of all time. I really liked it when one of the two town drunks says to him, "do you ever feel like every day is the same and nothing that you do matters?" A very philosophical moment disguised as a joke. When the clock in San Junipero hit midnight, it just meant that the simulation was over. Whatever happened was retained in the little chip for the next visit for everyone. I wonder how many of those who visit decide to not fully commit? I can see the meaning of show being a comparison between opiate addiction and the church, of pleasure via chemicals vs leading a meaningful life in hopes of a heavenly afterlife. And again, once hooked on the hedonism, who goes back to normal?

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

[–] ForTheNonce 8 years ago

I see lots of people debating whether uploading your consciousness to some sort of sophisticated VR represents some form of immortality.

It does... but only for the VR copy.

The episode seems to be saying in this world tech has advanced to the point where *your true consciousness* has been uploaded there, away from your body. Were this not the case, you're right - what's the point? But personally, spending eternity with the person I love is worthwhile, or at least much more worthwhile than just zap, nothing. And if the clothes I'm wearing are virtual and I can change them with a thought, or if the steak I'm eating that night isn't from a real cow - who cares as long as it tastes good?

The world you experience is what your senses tell you it is. But there are, say, other animals that see in a wider spectrum we can't sense. We *don't* experience every range of reality, just what we know of as reality. So what's the difference?

[–] Mellucy 8 years ago

It would be an interesting theory, if there was not a major issue: they cannot just wake up in a VR world with all their memories, and keep on living their life, because they had to die to enter SJ. And they all are perfectly aware of this. So this theory does not work.

Also what would be the point for anybody to "steal" their memories and to inject them in some VR world?

[–] Mellucy 8 years ago

Except for the machines from the Matrix of course ?
But I don't feel that SJ was about such a topic... maybe yeah, heaven and hell... or just how VR allows people to freely be themselves, freed from physical bareers or frown upon sexual preferences... like we can speak our minds so easily online, anonymously, vs. how it is so much more difficult in real life, for most of the people I mean.