The widespread perception is that drone warfare is somehow less moral, less noble, than more traditional modes of combat like manned aircraft bombings, tank warfare, ground troop assault, hand-to-hand combat etc. The perception is that western military send flying robots to the other side of the world to kill indiscriminately and without remorse.
This perception makes no sense. It makes about as much sense as somebody saying that shooting an arrow at an enemy 400 feet away is less moral, less noble, than charging right at them with a sword. I believe that might've actually been a common perception in medieval times but soldiers quickly got used to the new reality of technological advancement and adjusted accordingly.
Just the same, why wouldn't we phase out as many traditional manned missions as possible and use drones instead? It's more cost effective, more precise, saves the lives of our troops, and is still controlled by humans on a chain of command (much more so than twitchy soldiers on a chaotic battlefield, right in the "fog of war" who are given free reign to adjust as necessary, possibly increasing the likelihood of collateral damage and civilian casualties).
Yet luddites and hand-wringing doves would prefer that western military conduct warfare as it did in the Vietnam, WWII, WWI, and Civil War eras. Makes no sense.
For the record, I think that (for the most part) drone warfare is preferable than, say, sending in that Kenyan unit that was prepared to raid the bad guys' house. With the two bomb-vests and the Al-Shabbab militia that was controlling the streets, the bad guys would have taken out a majority of the Kenyans. [I don't remember why they called off the Kenyans at the first house (something about the uncertainty of the identities of the bad guys plus they lost track of the two Americans that we last saw at the airport).]
After some of the bad guys' move to the second house (the one where they were making the vests and was down the alley from Alia's) the subject of sending the Kenyan unit never came up--precisely for the reason I mentioned above.
The moral conundrum here was: Alia's life versus the scores of lives that would potentially be lost at the "Mall". I wouldn't want an innocent girl killed. But, after Jama Farah (Barhad Abdi) tried to buy Alia's bread, I would have figured that we gave it the old college try and would have done the same thing that they did...pound the house.
~~Bayowolf There's a difference between being frank... and being dick.
[I don't remember why they called off the Kenyans at the first house (something about the uncertainty of the identities of the bad guys plus they lost track of the two Americans that we last saw at the airport).]
The capture mission was held because they could not positively identify the British woman, they had already positively identified the UK man and the US man. They never lost track of the men at all, it was the woman's location they were not sure about.
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To be honest, warfare makes no sense to me, whatever the kind we're talking about.
Shooting enemies two by two, hoping that somehow bombs falling from the sky in the middle of a village won't make more enemies out of civilians is a losing strategy.
Digging trenches and getting young men to shoot at each other and to bomb each other with chemicals, hoping that you'll inflict enough loss to the other side that they give up before you makes no sense to me.
And getting people to strap bombs to themselves and walk into bars, malls and airplanes, killing civilians a few hundreds at a time, out of millions of people, hoping that you'll scare them enough that their governments will turn tail and abandon their economical and military interests in the Middle East makes no sense to me either.
For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco
True. Today a 13yr old girl was buried who was stabbed to death in her bed. Her sin? That she is a Jew. And the murderer is being hailed as a "hero" by the leadership in the P.A. This targeting of one group happens repeatedly: whether the aboriginals in N.America, the Yazidis of Iraq, the Armenians by Turks - it is, unfortunately, a very human failing. Hatred of "the other" has not ceased from the dawn of man.
You've made excellent points and I believe most people would logically come to the same conclusions that not only are drones more precise but that they ultimately save more lives on both sides of the battle. But I think the real danger is losing that moral dilemma that we see in this film..Couldn't such physical detachment create, in time, the same kind of detachment emotionally? Sure...one can actually view the cost of any collateral damage on a screen and be aware before the strike and attempt to avoid it but then how calloused might it make some people to make these decisions and push these buttons from a secure and protected environment thousands of miles away ...Even shooting an arrow from 400 feet away one might feel some sense of danger and the threat of physical harm which actually involves one in the act that they are performing (and a personal reason that they are performing it); the taking of another or other lives.
I'm all for Terrorism being attacked with any tools available... But what about the future.. If war becomes too antiseptic could that possibly make it easier to engage in?
Some day potent space weapons (laser satellite?) will come.Unless international agreements refrain from doing something like that in the first place. But that would require a sane mankind which doesn't exist and never will. ^^ ---Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!
The cost of wars for politicians was always the body bags of young soldiers returning home. Now we can engage in perpetual warfare and nobody back home cares.
How many years has the US been at war again? I've lost count.
So instead of sending in trained soldiers who know difference between innocent bystanders and terrorists, to take out a Terror Cell leader, we just indiscriminantly send in rockets from a flying remote control vehicle controlled from half a world away, with no clue of who may be in the vicinity, and who may become a victim of Collateral Damage.
Drone Warfare is PUSSY warfare instituted by cowardly politicians obsessed with the Optics of "Boots on the Ground".
These gutless leaders can then parade to their minions in the State Run Media the fact that they took out a terror cell leader with no American casualties!
But of course the leave out the fact 5 children, their mother and their grandparents were also killed in the blast.
Tell us, how many combat zones have you been deployed to as infantryman? What's your military training? If you're American, what was your MOS? Show us your DD214. No, playing CoD and watching garbage movies doesn't count.
Real combat is not like in a video game where your allies are blue on your map and your enemies red. People don't have nametags above their head and you can't mouseover to see what faction they belong to.
Real combat, especially in the infantry, is confusing as hell. It's a nightmare in an urban environment where everyone you encounter is a potential enemy. Just look at the Battle of Mogadishu. And in those countries the difference between combatants and bystanders isn't very well defined. They don't wear uniforms. Any civilian looking person can actually be a combatant.
you do not need to be at the combat zone as a soldier to have an idea about it. there are so many different point of views, so many ideas, so many different experiences. otherwise only military personals are allowed to write under this topic.
I like the movie, I loved it. there are so many layers, so many different approaches. military guys who just focus on the mission, selfish politicians, innocent civilians who had no desire to be a part of this war but unfortunately living there .... so many ...
we also need to think about what the hell is doing America at the other side of the world and all the new suicide bomber who will volunteer after each successful(!) drone mission.
personally I should not harm an innocent person under no circumstances. the woman talking with the general at the end of the movie, she is the only one with balls. we need more people like her at the both sides.
the woman talking with the general at the end of the movie, she is the only one with balls. we need more people like her at the both sides.
She was the most clueless of all of them, she had no idea as the General said .. don't ever try to tell a soldier that he does not understand the cost of war.
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So instead of sending in trained soldiers who know difference between innocent bystanders and terrorists, to take out a Terror Cell leader, we just indiscriminantly send in rockets from a flying remote control vehicle controlled from half a world away, with no clue of who may be in the vicinity, and who may become a victim of Collateral Damage.
Drone Warfare is PUSSY warfare instituted by cowardly politicians obsessed with the Optics of "Boots on the Ground".
These gutless leaders can then parade to their minions in the State Run Media the fact that they took out a terror cell leader with no American casualties!
But of course the leave out the fact 5 children, their mother and their grandparents were also killed in the blast.
Please get a clue.
@drgreenthumb1001 , look. When a "hit" is confirmed.. You really think it goes...
Oh what the hell, he looks like a bad guy, I'm going to pull the trigger? Really?
It's not indiscriminately in the least. As mentioned, way more checks and balances than there can possibly be on the ground.
Of course collateral damage is taken into account. Of course we have a "clue" who else is in the vicinity. Way more than you do just on the ground.
More often that not, someone else on the ground is confirming as well. We dont just pull the trigger. We know the cost!
Pussy? ha Who cares. It's not a dick measuring contest. Get over yourself!
Yea well guess what.. Those 5 children, mother, and grandparents are bad guys too. Dont try and convince me they are innocent. They know damn well what their fathers, brothers, sons, etc. are doing. Even if scared of them, they still failed to act and are bad guys too.
Children and women are putting on suicide vests just the same.
So if children are playing out side? Forget it uh? Let the terrorists plan on killing others. Right. So now everytime they just make sure they have children around because your too much of a coward to make a hard decision and kill the SOBs.
I dont want to kill anyone! But *beep* Some times there really is no choice. It's the last thing we want to do.
I hope you never find yourself having to make this kind of decision. Just remember, people like yourself will second guess every decision you make and will blame you for others actions. So good luck!
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Of course it is immoral - it is illegal and a war crime.
Traditional warfare - except wars of aggression - is lawful.
Killing in war is generally lawful. However war crimes are still crimes.
American troops in particular seem to think that just because you are at war means you can violate normal laws. That is why they raped and killed Vietnamese civilians, murdered their own officers (700+ in Vietnam alone), and continued murdering and paring civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unfortunately that disregard for the law rubbed off onto some British soldiers.
The use of drones to kill selected people is unlawful. The use of drones to attack a military target is not. The USA is killing thousands of people unlawfully every year,and unfortunately the UK is now also killing some.
@Royalcourtier, really?
Nothing illegal about it and thus not a war crime.
Right.. Been to Iraq and Afghanistan? I have.. Believe what you want..
I've seen nothing like that as you describe.. As always... It's super small number of people doing this crazy *beep* Please dont generalize a group like this..
The use of drones to kill a person. That is a military target. Has to be confirmed many times. Nothing illegal about it.
HVT = High Value Targets. Are just that, a highly valued miltary target.
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Most of the fighting death and destruction is occurring in the middle east and parts of Africa.
Yes Islamic radicals do kill in the western world but comparatively speaking it's minuscule. There's also the death and destruction being perpetrated by other middle eastern countries and groups on others in those areas, but again at least one reason for that is b/c of the instability created over the last 15 years of constant war.
The fact that we're able to limit casualties b/c of our superior tech allows us to continue to bomb and fight in these regions without too much public dissent (Vietnam only ended b/c the casualties suffered were too high).
Limiting casualties has allowed for perpetual war, which creates more angry, poor, and/or uneducated young people in those regions. Some of those people go on to become suicide bombers or members of isis or whatever other group that inevitably springs up as the bogey man in the west (not saying they aren't actually a bogey man just not my bogey man). And we get more war and violence.
But not because of war or permanent danger and destruction.Other problems require other solutions. ---Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!
It isn't more immoral than artillery would have been. They adjusted to where they thought the enemy was and shot off hoping to hit. Now they're shooting from even further away and they know when they hit.
"You'll be taking a soul train straight to a disco inferno where you never can say goodbye!"