When there was all that talk about the possibility of finding life on mars and again with this movie, it seemed an aspect of the movie that was promoted as crucial was the idea of finding life on Europa.
I'm not trying to start a theist/atheist war, but I'm curious what the significance of that really is?
In the theist paradigm, finding life on mars or europa would just imply that the creator created life there also... It seems to me that in the atheistic paradigm, one would just assume that the spontaneous generation of life seemingly can happen anywhere...
So what's the big deal? Why would finding life there be the most significant discovery of human history?
There is no proving or disproving beliefs based on superstition rather than reason. But, finding life, of any kind, on another world in our solar system would support the theory that life is common in the universe. Finding that is based on a different genetic code or even a different reproducing molecule other than nucleic acids would be even more convincing evidence.
It seems to me that in the atheistic paradigm, one would just assume that the spontaneous generation of life seemingly can happen anywhere...
So what's the big deal? Why would finding life there be the most significant discovery of human history?
The big deal is the difference between we have a theory about life in another place in the universe and the fact that we found one. That's the big deal, man. Everything is just only theory in paper, until someone find out the actual living creature out there. There's difference between thinking/theory/hypothesis and actual evidence of extraterrestrial being. Even science need proof to some extent.
Did we really find out any living creature anywhere other than Earth yet? No.
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Not just "to some extent" - without absolute proof it's simply bad science (zillions of examples of that all over the internet and especially facebook posts). Proof is the bedrock of science, generally produced through a rigorous process of peer reviewed research.
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Significant for what reasons? It would be huge news for a month or so, and people in the field would analyze it from every direction, but thats it, what do you do with that kind of data? Fly back out there and throw bombs at it? It clearly didn't like their presence on the moon/planet...
Besides, everyone knows the most significant discovery in human history is pre-sliced bread or underwear, It's a toss up.
But isn't it pretty much what you'd expect the spokesperson for a corporation that just spent incredible amounts of money and lost their entire crew to say? It's not like the movie itself, via some overarching narrator, said it.
Hang in there. You'll be amazed at how fast they start to add up once you have your own gear and stuff. I finally passed 1600 last Fall. That may sound like a lot but not when you figure my first jump was in 1978. But I still love every one.
While some science fiction works have treated that question as a potential dealbreaker with regard to religion/God/etc. (which like you, I think is a fallacious assumption), this one didn't--I don't recall that aspect ever being mentioned.
But it would still be very significant, probably even "the most significant" discovery, given that we'd have to come to terms with the fact that not only are we not alone in the universe, that having other life in our own Solar System would point to the universe being crowded with life--and highly evolved intelligent life might too be closer than we think, by statistical implication. It would rock our little world to digest those implications--and probably significantly change how we view our universe, and perhaps how we'll go forward exploring it. Short-term, things won't change much, but long-term it could prove to be very critical knowledge to be forearmed (so to speak) with.
Yeah... because I was thinking that in the theistic worldview, we already don't think "we're alone" (at the very least, God is there). And it's clear that many in the non-theistic camp also believe that "The genesis of life is as inevitable as the formation of atoms." (e.g. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2740872/posts)
But I guess that would be the difference between "knowing" and "*knowing*".
And you're right, this movie doesn't really hit on this topic from the angle I mentioned. It's just that I've been studying a lot recently on this topic and when I heard the quote (i.e. that finding life there was 'Most significant discovery in human history'), I was just trying to think through the implications of one worldview vs. the other.
I have a question. If our Universe is only "so old" (like around 13-15 billion years old), and it took billions of years for life to form on our planet, wouldn't that be proof that it takes a huge amount of time for life to even start and get to the point of being a space faring species? Could it be possible that Earth is the "first" planet where a space faring species formed and is the reason why we don't hear from anyone else out there? Not to mention that our planet has had a few major extinctions (which should also be true for all planets in the Universe.) For all we know, WE are the only lucky ones, so far, to have gotten as far as we have. We are in the infancy of our birth and we will be the ones to populate the Universe in the future (hopefully.) If the Universe was full of alien life that were space faring, we should already know about it! Not unless there's a space police (like in South Park) that keeps us at bay...
The universe is only so old (about 14 billion years) but our planet is much younger - only about 4.5 billion years. Life probably appeared about 3.5 billion years ago, so it took that long to become space-faring. It's not at all clear that this would be at all consistent though. Based on how evolution happens, you could get space-faring much sooner or never.
Either way, there are suns and planets that are 2-3 times older than ours. A planet elsewhere in the universe that is 10 billion years old has easily had the amount of time "needed" to get life and then to evolve to something able to manipulate radio waves or travel in space.
Look up the Drake equation. There are a lot of websites online where you can put in yoru estimates of key information and see how many planets are likely out there right now with intelligent life on them.
I seem to remember something about the heavier elements found in our sun/solar system indicating that the sun is actually at least a second generation star. (Basically, big ass star lives, dies, then explodes/novas, bits of it coalesce to form new star with heavier elements ergo sun.) So, if I'm remembering that right, we're definitely not the new kids on the galaxy block by a long shot.
Here's my opinion. The discovery of extraterrestrial life would be obviously earthshaking. Not the "most significant discovery in human history" though.
The discovery of the wheel or the electron are two more significant discoveries (than discovery of extraterrestrial life) easily. The discovery that washing your hands prevents disease is more significant. There are thousands of discoveries more significant than the discovery of extraterrestrial life, as far as human history is concerned.
''I'm fortunate the pylons were not set to a lethal level."
There are different ways for things to be "significant". It's a very vague adjective, and superlatives can be applied with equal facility to completely different value systems. Was the invention of the wheel the most "significant" discovery in human history? One could argue that sheerly from a utilitarian aspect, certainly. But the wheel itself is only seminal, not progressive. We could easily have gone no further than using the wheel to transport heavy rocks to carve into idols, and 100,000 years later, have made no obvious progress. The discovery of micro-organisms? Sure, it did wonders for lowering the death rate of our species (in conjunction with other things) but human population was already expanding at a exponential rate long before we managed to put sterile surgery and treatment of diseases/wounds into practice. It was extremely "significant" but it's easy to argue that it wasn't crucial in itself, any more than the wheel was, for our species. We can keep going, but my point is pretty much encapsulated by the aforementioned. So would the discovery of complex life match that of the wheel, of fire, of radio waves, of micro-organisms, of gunpowder, of mechanical computing, of crop rotation, of atomic energy? It's an entirely subjective argument on a practical scale. What if discovering alien life ultimately leads to, say, the secret of immortality? That started with the wheel, obviously, but it wasn't necessarily an inevitable conclusion of the wheel. As I said, we could just as easily still be lugging carts around and praying to rocks. So the discovery of alien life, it could be argued, is far more "signficant" than the wheel in such a case.
In other words, we can't really say what better deserves the superlative until it's all been played out, and even then, our priorities matter. If discovering alien life were to (to return to the OP's point) somehow prove or disprove the existence of a divinity -- even if said proof relies entirely on epistemes rather than empiricism -- it's nearly impossible to tell a given person that they're mistaken about the relative significance of the event. It would be equally difficult to tell a person that the discovery of a chemical in an alien's make-up that multiplies an individual human's intelligence 50-fold isn't the most "significant" discovery ever. Do you follow the difficulty in making this argument from premises based in a priori assumptions? Until everything plays out, and even then, it depends on how you choose to split the tree of causality, it's a non-starter of a debate except for purely intellectual pleasure.
It would vindicate SETI advocates. If life can find a foothold where there is what is, to earth and our know biological life condition parameters, extremophile then it greatly increases the likelyhood that other planets similar to earth could harbor life more akin to what we know.
It comes down to the fact that we have insufficient info to determine if Earth is exceptional or not. If life can form in two or more locations in just our solar system, then perhaps we are not alone in being intelligent, and perhaps SETI could one day find us some distant, but not too distant, star pen pals.
Are you kidding me? It has nothing to do with theism. It would be the most significant discovery in the history of mankind because it would prove that there is life other than on this planet, which would suggest given the size of the universe that there are billions of other populated worlds and civilizations to be found. It would drive humanity to search as deep and far into space as possible, provide untold scientific insight into biology and evolution, pour new life into all manner of scientific, political and philosophical discussion, etc.
But, more importantly, it would prove our relative insignificance. There wouldn't be any question whether or not we were a unique or isolated event. Every human being who knew this information would have their understanding of existence changed immediately.
It would also be an interesting theistic question for this reason: If the species is intelligent and as or more developed than us, what would their thoughts on God be? What if they were atheistic? What if they had religious traditions that differed so much from ours that they couldn't be related? And what if they were almost exactly the same?
We have an entire history of cumulative knowledge that when added up makes an enormous foundation, but it would be hard to point to one particular discovery by man that would be beat discovering a whole other entire history of cumulative knowledge, or a whole other planet of new life and all its implications.
I think this is technically known as the fallacy of the excluded middle -- not allowing for another potential explanation of the data.
Here's the thought experiment: suppose there is a God and he created life on earth, Mars and Europa and only there... since we'll never travel to other stars to know for sure, that could logically explain finding life in these three places sufficiently in a theistic paradigm.
And even if one day could travel to other stars and we did find life literally all over the galaxy, that still wouldn't exclude the possibility of God having done it. (in fact, the Chronicles of Narnia makes just such a proposition in the Magician's Nephew).
Also, it wouldn't prove our "relative insignificance" either... if God is as 'infinite' as the Bible suggests, he could have life on a planet in every solar system in the Universe and wouldn't run out of permutations... and as Larry Norman has sung, "And if there's life on other planets, then I'm sure that he must know, and he's been there once already and has died to save their souls."
Anyway, I may be wrong and you may be right... but I'm just saying that your propositions don't necessarily follow from the hypothetical scenario you describe.
You've missed my point. The relevance of the discovery is the weight that it would give all of those existential and scientific questions. There's no need to suppose there is or isn't a God. We know that there are those who believe in God and those who don't, but their arguments are mostly limited to the empirical evidence they have access to on earth. First-hand knowledge and interaction with alien life would introduce an entirely new, massive piece of information into our worldview. It's hardly hypothetical to assert that it would cause an enormous ripple effect.
The Biblical god is perhaps the most anthropocentric deity ever. Created by humans for humans. More specifically even, created by ancient male Jews for ancient male Jews.
The Bible describes only the creation of land and sky, and describes the sun and moon as "lights". It describes the Earth as having four corners. It does not mention anything else. No Mars, no Jupiter, no other stellar systems, no galaxies, and most certainly not Europa. And only lands known by Jews are described. No China, no Americas, no Australia (something which was used later to justify slavery, arguing that Africans are soul-less animals).
The original sin and salvation as well, would be concepts that would hold no meaning for an alien species. They aren't supposed descendants of Adam and Eve. Neither would the entire Bible (or Quran or Tanakh) even make sense to them. Most of its "teachings" deal with things that in all likelihood will be unique to humans - eating prohibitions, clothing prohibitions, sexual prohibitions, etc. Would you expect an alien to eat a host wafer? What if they do not have sexes? Or have more than two? Even if there are only two, which would be male and female? What if they are immortal? What if they don't have religions at all?
Unless of course, you are implying that they were given their own scriptures, their own prophets, and their own rituals. In which case, how would you even recognize them as kindred? Abrahamic religions conquered and converted half the world, deposing "false" prophets and scriptures and deities. Even now, wars are still raging on whose prophet is real and whose isn't. And you expect Christians to just look at an alien religion and say "ah, what they believe now is perfectly fine. Because that's what Jesus told them."
Abrahamic religions are not known for tolerance. Even very minor differences is enough for followers to declare heresy and usually end up with someone dying. If Catholics can't even accept Protestants, if Christians can't even accept Muslims, if Abrahamic religions can't even accept polytheistic religions, what makes you think it can accept the religion(s) of a (for example) multitentacled chemosynthetic monster the size of an ocean liner that reproduces through fragmentation and have a hive mind?
An infinite pantheistic or panentheistic god(s), sure, he/she/it/they could do that. Highly advanced alien being(s) as well may be capable of that. But not the Abrahamic god. A god, which for all intents and purposes, is truly a god of men and solely of men because it was created by men.
Remember, humans were supposedly created in his image. Thus the opposite is also true. The Biblical god is also in your image. And that is reflected clearly in the scriptures where the Abrahamic god is almost always described as having human motivations. That is not an infinite being.
You'd be better off using ultimate deities or philosophies from say, Hinduism or Buddhism, which are easier to interpret as referring to universal non-human and infinite beings. Though again, only if you treat it all as metaphorical rather than literal.
I'd say the discovery of math is such a discovery by man that would beat it. Without math nothing humans have created in the last thousands of years would be possible. We'd still be stuck in a very basic existence of tribes. Math spawned all science today, buildings, records, kept track of harvest and workers. It's fundamental for anything but the most basic of development.
If your last paragraph was about other intelligent life then I agree that would be on par for sure. If you're talking about non-intelligent microbes then I think math would be a bigger discovery.
Full disclosure - I don't even like math, I'm terrible at it but I see the enormous value it has. Our entire universe runs on math and it will be amazing when we discover the math that explains everything.
Knowing we are not alone and Earth is not an exception will be IMHO the most significant discovery in human history.
Talking abour religion...theists will have to share the love of their god with an almost infinite number of civilizations, so... I think it WILL cause a huge problem to them and I, as an atheist will have a lot of fun.
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is Science." Robert Ingersoll
If cures for all cancer diseases were discovered it would no doubt be a big discovery. Especially if it happened at once, with a major shift in knowledge, instead of a long series of small improvements.
But I think 100 years or 200 years after that discovery, it wouldn't seem too significant either way. It would blur in with all the other many discoveries we've made. Especially because there's so many other significant diseases we've come to cure over time.
Discovering extraterrestrial life matters in a wide range of subjects because it will have influence on major core understandings about how life-forms work, which can help lead to other discoveries, like curing diseases such as cancer.
Curing cancer is kind of a selfish discovery. It's only about improving our lives and fighting against one of many causes of death. ET life will have impact on so many branches of sciences.
But in order to determine which discoveries are more important than others, you'd have to setup some criteria, otherwise it would just be what you feel is more important (and that will no-doubt change with culture over time).
I think the primary reason that cancer matters a lot today is because it's so expressed in the Western culture nowadays. I can't imagine we could know if it's really significant 500 years from now (if we're even alive then), but judging from the history of cultural values, I imagine it would have changed significantly.
Talking abour religion...theists will have to share the love of their god with an almost infinite number of civilizations, so... I think it WILL cause a huge problem to them and I, as an atheist will have a lot of fun.
Unfortunately for you and your hopes for "having a lot of fun", the Bible and other ancient religious text (such as the Book of Enoch) are already full of accounts of aliens. What do you think angels, watchers, and demons are? They aren't humans, they aren't from Earth, and they are intelligent. They also have technology such as aircraft (e.g. "Ezekiel's wheel") and "flaming swords", which would have had to have been manufactured somewhere. The "watchers" in the Book of Enoch were said to have taught humans metallurgy and other things, and took human females for their wives, indicating actual physical beings, rather than something ethereal floating in the clouds.
Angels killed humans (using weapons such as swords, not by "magic"), wrestled with them (Jacob), took them flying (using actual flying devices, again, not by "magic"), fought with each other ("war in Heaven"), imparted some scientific knowledge (e.g., metallurgy), and so on.
Knowing we are not alone and Earth is not an exception will be IMHO the most significant discovery in human history.
Except, people who are well-versed in the Bible and believe it to be true, believed in the existence of alien life all along. So while it might be "the most significant discovery in human history" from the perspective of an atheist such as yourself, it won't be a big deal at all for them, which means they will be able to "have a lot of fun" with you; you know, rather than the other way around as you falsely suppose.
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Sorry, Maxim, but while your personal interpretation of the Bible allows the concept of aliens to fit into the structure of God's creations (as, frankly, it should), the great bulk of fundamentalists who see the Bible as literal and unalterable truth consider everything in it in literal terms. Angels are angels, not aliens. Watchers are watchers, not aliens. Demons are demons, not aliens. Ezekiel's wheel is literally a wheel, a flaming sword is literally a sword on fire, etc. NONE of these fundamentalists can see life in space simply because it is not literally described to them in the Bible as life in space. Even the true universe itself in it's tens of billions of light years of expanse is not something they can grasp by reading the Bible the way they do. Remember, people believed in the Bible for centuries even though they did not believe that the earth orbited the sun, or that the stars in the sky were other suns like our own many light years away. Galileo was persecuted by the CHURCH, for daring to suggest otherwise.
I have to deal with fundamentalist beliefs all the time, and they are astoundingly ignorant of the real universe they live in...BECAUSE they see the Bible as the only source of knowledge they need. In a purely literal sense, of course. And when they take the Bible literally, that source doesn't tell them any of the things you find in it, Maxim. Personally, I find the Bible to be as open to interpretation as you do, but the fundamentalists I witness would consider such interpretations to be heresy. So yes, the proof of extraterrestrial life would be profoundly disturbing to them. If they were even willing to accept the proof of it. In my opinion, they would violently oppose any acceptance of such proof.
What do you think angels, watchers, and demons are?
Imaginary being that goat herders saw. Watchers are not in the "official" Bible. Demons were diseases that were spread before the understanding of germ theory. Epilepsy causes someone to have seizures (be under a demons influence). Same with Angels, they were hallucinations. Since the advent of science how many "demon possessions" do people see these days? 0 is the answer because we now recognize what it really was; disease.
Your interpretation leads me to believe you have watched a lot of "History" channel and gobbled up every word they say about Ancient Aliens.
All these claims are nothing but ancient stories of early, uneducated man. They saw a meteor and they saw God's anger. Have you seen the videos of the Russian meteor from last year? For someone 2 thousand-4 thousand years ago that would have been definitive proof of God's abilities. Haley's Comet comes around every 80 years, there again is proof of God to them.
Except, people who are well-versed in the Bible and believe it to be true, believed in the existence of alien life all along.
This is so patently false I'm blown away by this claim. There are 40,000 denominations of churches all with the correct interpretation yet you say only those that believe Ancient Alien hypothesizes are true believers. A no true Scotsman argument.
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Imaginary being that goat herders saw. Watchers are not in the "official" Bible. Demons were diseases that were spread before the understanding of germ theory. Epilepsy causes someone to have seizures (be under a demons influence). Same with Angels, they were hallucinations. Since the advent of science how many "demon possessions" do people see these days? 0 is the answer because we now recognize what it really was; disease.
This is a non sequitur, and as such, consider it dismissed out of hand. The question was:
"What do you think angels, watchers, and demons are?"
The answer is: aliens, by definition, i.e., beings that are not from Earth. God himself is also an alien, by definition.
Your interpretation leads me to believe you have watched a lot of "History" channel and gobbled up every word they say about Ancient Aliens.
It's not an "interpretation", numbnuts, it is true by definition. Also, this excerpt of yours "leads me to believe" you're a kid. I discussed this topic many times as a kid, in the '80s, long before there was a show called "Ancient Aliens", and long before there was even a "History Channel", for that matter.
All these claims are nothing but ancient stories of early, uneducated man. They saw a meteor and they saw God's anger. Have you seen the videos of the Russian meteor from last year? For someone 2 thousand-4 thousand years ago that would have been definitive proof of God's abilities. Haley's Comet comes around every 80 years, there again is proof of God to them.
Another non sequitur; dismissed. It doesn't matter whether any of it is true or not. For example, Superman is an alien, from Krypton. Get it, simple fellow?
This is so patently false
No, it is true by definition, which means it isn't debatable.
I'm blown away by this claim.
That's because you're an idiot who clearly can't read properly.
There are 40,000 denominations of churches all with the correct interpretation yet you say only those that believe Ancient Alien hypothesizes are true believers. A no true Scotsman argument.
I said:
"Except, people who are well-versed in the Bible and believe it to be true, believed in the existence of alien life all along."
People who are well-versed in the Bible and believe it to be true, believe in God, angels, and demons, which means they believe in the existence of alien life by default, because God, angels, and demons are all aliens by definition. Likewise, anyone who believes Superman is real, believes in aliens by default, because Superman is an alien by definition.
Is that clear, Slow Doug™?
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Alien, by the most accepted commonly-held definition, is a being not from Earth. So in that respect you are correct - demons, angels etc are not from Earth.
What you are missing is that most Bible believers that believe in the existence of demons, angels etc do no believe them to be from another planet either. So they do not believe in Aliens - beings that co-exist with humans in this universe/reality/simulation/whatever you want to call it. They believe in beings that exist OUTSIDE of this reality.
To those religious people, they believe the beings in the bible to be of another realm. That is the difference.
For example, you cannot travel to Hell in a spaceship - well, not with current technology anyway!
It had nothing to do with whether there was/is a God or creator or not. it was that we had discovered life on another world. Until that point the widley held view was that there was no life outside of earth in teh universe.
Such a discovery would utterly destroy humanity's long-held exceptionalism. Most organized religions would be sent scurrying in their haste to accommodate such a development.
A lot of you folks don't seem to be thinking this through very well. Any demonstration of extraterrestrial life is going to send major shock waves throughout human society, particularly if that life is intelligent.
We would no longer be able to claim ourselves as special, or chosen, or central to much of anything except ourselves.
I would even be willing to predict that such an event would trigger a wave of suicides the like of which we've never seen before.
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I don't know about the suicide bit. I think it would do the exact opposite. For the religious it would just present another puzzle or piece of divine inquiry, and to the secular it might actually be a relief to know that life isn't trapped on this planet and their existential woes may be shared on other worlds. Not to mention the sheer wonder of the discovery would keep most people around on utter curiosity. A discovery this size would reduce the average person to the mental state of child the first time it encountered a completely foreign being like a live octopus or exotic bug. I think your ordinary concerns would shrink into the background for a while.
People have gotten complacent about the concept of extraterrestrial life, due most definitely to how often it is speculated upon in so many narrative films, as well as other sources in mass media. But the difference between speculating on the possibility of extraterrestrial life and KNOWING IT AS A FACT is so enormous, some people appear to be in denial of it's impact. We may think we understand our place in the universe, but once we KNOW we are not alone, it will completely change how we think about ourselves, individually and as a group. It's like the difference between understanding that some day you will die, and actually facing the cold hard reality of your mortality. You may think you're prepared for that, but you're just kidding yourself.
Then again, when you speak of KNOWING IT AS A FACT, there are people who still don't believe we walked on the moon. What is shown later in the film, probably wouldn't be enough to create an absolute understanding/acceptance of the reality it represents for many people.
I also think maybe you exaggerate the impact. But really, it just depends on who you ask. I don't know those probabilities. I don't know how long distance space travel might work to a civilization far more advanced than ours. I also don't know what some here might already know about if/where life may have already been found. I mean, for something like this film, it might be a little shocking. Or if I walked outside and saw some Independence Day type ship hovering in the sky, I'd probably *beep* myself.
But if I turned on the news, and they were talking about finding some microorganisms or something like that, to me, it would be a discovery that would just be a confirmation, and something to study, like finding something new in a remote place on the Earth.
I have no doubt at all that Earth is the one singular anomaly in all of the universe. Proving it is a matter of time. But not more significant than what could be done to help people on Earth with the money spent on it, IMO. Now if you discovered something in studying, which turns out to be something significant, like an extraterrestrial cure for cancer, then I might be more inclined to agree.
Am I correct in understanding that you "have no doubt at all" that Earth is the only planet with life in the universe? If so, it would certainly explain why you think I'm exaggerating the impact. However, that very lack of doubt would be the kind of brittle and rigid belief system most threatened by the discovery of extraterrestrial life. In fact, one of the likely scenarios with the discovery would be a militant rejection of the information by those whose belief systems are most threatened by the discovery, such as religious fundamentalists. A militant rejection that could reach the point of wide-spread violence, particularly against those who supported or even embraced the discovery. Such a fear of widespread violence and upheaval is a prime argument for those who advocate the choice of keeping the discovery of extraterrestrial life a secret from the public.
Hold the phone, are you talking about microorganisms or intelligent life? When microorganisms are found around one of the other moons you think there will be violence etc? If so I'm going to have to laugh... most people will be every complacent and not care that much. Religious people will attribute it to God obviously. Philosophers, Scientists, people that are generally interested in this will be extremely excited (including me).
For the most part the reaction will be a bit of shock, but it won't be too impactful on people since it will not affect their day-to-day life in any way. People generally do not care about things if they don't affect them personally. Does it challenge their religion? No, not in any way, it's easily chalked up to God doing it.