I haven't seen this mentioned on this board yet...
In a scene with Jean, Llewyn expresses his distate at how Jean sees music: a way to have a career, make money, have a future. He tells her "If that's what music is to you then it's a little careerist and it's a little square and it's a little sad." Presumably, he views music as art, having value in itself, not a means to an end.
So when a couple of scenes later, the Gorfeins ask him to sing something and he seems reluctant and Lillian Gorfein says "I thought singing was a joyous expression of the soul", you'd think well that's exactly how he sees it too (maybe minus "joyous" though). He starts singing, but then in his anger over her singing Mike's parts, he just bizzarely contradicts his philosophy and says music is what he does for a living, it's how he pays the rent, it's not a parlor game, it's a job. Ok I know he was angry/emotional about Mike but first of all, he started turning down the Gorfeins' request even before Lillian sang Mike's lines, and secondly, the Coens as screenwriters could have given him any tirade to express his anger but why choose to give him this specific rant which glaringly contradicts his earlier words with Jean (and his behaviour throughout the film)?
Well spotted.. I reckon Llewyn is emotional and unsure of himself and generally says things that stuff things up for him. He pretty much always says the wrong thing. He's not fussy if he contradicts himlself. He doesn't know what he wants.
That kind of makes me wonder was he having a tirade against the Gorfeins or an inner tirade?
Was the part of him that did it for the love of singing having a knock-down drag-out with the part of him that just wanted to be able to buy a winter coat?
You could be onto something, as maybe when he remembers Mike, he gets depressed and isn't sure he love music anymore and is just desperate to pay the rent.
1) He didn't like that she sang Mike's part and obviously, he still hasn't gotten over him.
2) You're right, but he needs money and he wants to earn it doing something he loves. I don't think he appreciated how the Gorfeins used him in that dinner.
A character having contradictions isn't necessarily a negative.
A character having contradictions isn't necessarily a negative.
Not necessarily. When the contradiction reveals something interesting about the character it's not a negative. When it's just a contradiction, it is a negative I think.
You're right, but he needs money and he wants to earn it doing something he loves.
That could be. I can understand there must be some self-righteous anger in "I should be earning money for this - for this labour of love that I do - for God’s sake". Still, it's a bit hard to reconcile this with the "If that's all that music is to you..." line he said to Jean.
I don't think he appreciated how the Gorfeins used him in that dinner.
I don't think they did it out of any bad intention. They seemed to just want to all share a moment of music with him, which they thought is something he loves. In asking for his music, I think it's implicit that they appreciate it and admire him for it.
reply share
The contradiction does reveal something interesting which is that he makes excuses for his way of life because he's actually comfortable not getting anywhere, he doesn't really want a career and make it and he doesn't really want to get close to anybody. He wants to sleep on peoples couches and he makes the excuse of this is my job so he doesn't have to get close to mike's parents. So now he has a reason to leave.
Not arguing it was a goof, knowing the Coens' detailed approach. I think it's either somewhat not contradictory - in a way I don't see - or it's a contradiction that illuminates something about Llewyn - which I haven't been able to pinpoint. So I'm asking for others' thoughts.
Interesting observation, but might be part of his journey (and state of mind in grief/mourning taking over) or questioning their motives in asking him to play.
He does play on that "Please Mr. Kennedy" song, and turns down the royalties figuring it would be a flop, and probably not wanting to be associated with it (can't blame him). It's not his style, but he's scrapping to get by and almost gives up his dream to work on the fishing boat too. But in the end he commits to himself.
I tend to interpret things from Llewyn as I would from a person in real life, meaning that I can totally accept that they contradict themselves and that I'll never really know if I completely understood them, so I may end meandering a bit here!
In that scene I felt that Llewyn seemed sort of cornered. He's angry and grieving, sure, but he's also asked to perform in a way that removes the barrier between the artist and his public, or between the professional and the amateur. I think he's ready to bare his soul in a performance, but he's got no interest in seeing others doing so, argh, that's hard to express. He's not one to play for friends around a campfire, you know? He's there for the music, not for the catharsis.
Also, as a whole he seems to judge others easily, quite perceptively and not at all mercifully, so he certainly sees the quirks and ridiculousness of the Gorfeins that the Coen bros show us. And when Llewyn doesn't like something or someone and feels bad about himself he tends to lash out, as we see in other scenes.
So I read this as him finding the answer that will hurt Lillian the most and contradict her sentence about "a joyous expression of the soul" the most completely. It's provocative and painful and I think that he hurts himself saying it too, and knows it. Something a bit masochistic, and a bit like prodding a wound to see if it hurts.
he's also asked to perform in a way that removes the barrier between the artist and his public
I can't imagine many artists who would consciously erect and keep such a barrier. You'd have to be really conceited/pretentious I think.
or between the professional and the amateur.
This I can understand more. He doesn't want to think of himself as an amateur. But then again, I understood his relationship with the Gorfeins to be a friendly one (at least from their part certainly), and even professionals "play for friends around a campfire". Why do you think he's not one to do that? Why would anyone who actually likes music and isn't in it for the money not do that? I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm interested to know, because I don't personally know people who are like that.
Also, as a whole he seems to judge others easily, quite perceptively and not at all mercifully, so he certainly sees the quirks and ridiculousness of the Gorfeins that the Coen bros show us.
That's true.
So I read this as him finding the answer that will hurt Lillian the most and contradict her sentence about "a joyous expression of the soul" the most completely.
So he's a contrarian, is that it? And in the same way, his words to Jean about music aren't really how he feels, but more about wanting, again, to contradict the person in front of him and to denigrate her way of life? If that's the intended characterization... well I just think the Llewyn I personally took away from the movie - a hopeless dreamer who won't get ahead because he never does the pragmatic thing - is more interesting, but well, that's just my opinion.
reply share
I think there are a lot of performers who erect barriers between them and their public. Not in an "I'm better than you" way, but in an "I am the one playing and I'm giving you a lot and it's only possible to do it because there's this idea that you're here for the music and not for my soul."
Llewyn does get a lot out when he sings, actually, quite only when he sings actually, but I think he'd crucify the first person that would try to spell it out to him, you know?
Not only a contrarian, I think. It's obvious that he feels very deeply about the music he plays, and that not only he doesn't want to compromise but he doesn't know how to do it (see: the very bad choice of "the Death Of Queen Jane", though it's a very poignant song). But he's totally able to lie about his motives to get at Lillian, and it feels like another of his self-sabotages, because he knows perfectly how it makes him look. This is a man who, in the state he's in at tha moment, doesn't really want to be loved. And as I said, it also feels like testing the waters, maybe, like wondering if he could be that person playing for money.
To anyone who has ever seen the documentary "Don't Look Back". Bob Dylan is in a hotel room surrounded by various people some famous many unknown and he plays a great version of It's All Over Now Baby Blue. I can't think of anyone who takes his music and himself more seriously than Dylan, yet he gladly plays for the group. It's what singers do.
I think it's a well-spotted observation. It raises two points. 1. This perceived contradiction gives a whole new layer of nuance to Llewyn. Perhaps he has become cynical and prone to self-doubt at this point and has compromised his previous integrity. There is also the potential that he was just parading over Jean with his moral superiority while secretly being jealous of her success.
2. If this is a contradiction, very rarely does the person see their beliefs and actions as contradictory. He may not be in it for the money, but he may want his music to have a certain performance quality that is not found at a casual dinner party. Moreover, he may not find the environment of the Gorfein's to be conducive to the kind of performance he wants to do. He might want to be a cultural icon, not an after dinner entertainer.
My favourite scene is the one in the Gorfein's. As someone who has done stand up comedy I relate. When my friends ask me to tell a joke at parties. I was never in it for the money but no one likes bearing one's soul at a moment against their choosing. Also, most creative people are selective in who they want to perform to. You want your craft to have some significance, not just be a tap you turn on and off at people's pleasure.
Sorry but it seems to me that playing for the Gorfeins people who like Llewyn and appreciate his music would be more pleasant than playing in a bar with a bunch of drunks talking while you're trying to play. I don't see anything about his craft having significance at the dives that he was playing. I just think Llewyn had lost his joy for music period.