MovieChat Forums > Brimstone (2017) Discussion > Firearms Authenticity

Firearms Authenticity

posted 7 years ago by Padeen (6459)
14 replies | jump to latest

I was surprised to see a bolt action rifle at the beginning of the movie when drunken Nathan shows up and shoots out the windows? Sure bolt actions were gaining popularity with militaries around the world during the late 19th Century, but I don't think a farmer/rancher would have one in South Dakota. Seems as if it would be very rare and expensive.

Overall I was impressed with the film. I was expecting a straight up Western but was surprised with something totally different. Dakota Fanning and Guy Pearce were both excellent!

[–] wanton87 (934) 7 years ago

Yes, it does seem as if it would be an unlikely choice for that time and place. Mauser, and perhaps a few others, were producing some bolt guns as far back as the 1890’s, and possibly earlier. I’ve actually seen for sale, some reconditioned, and in still firing condition, 19th century Mauser's at the sportsman’s guide, not too many years ago.

Just for the heck of it, I had a look through my 1897 Sears, Roebuck & Co Catalogue. I saw some pump rifles, break actions, rolling/falling blocks, and of course, plenty of lever actions, but I didn’t see any bolt actions, so they must not have been very popular for the north American market at that time.

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

Yup, your correct. I actually own both an 1891 Argentine Mauser Carbine and an 1895 Chilean Mauser Carbine. Both are totally functional and are amazing rifles for the time period. There are still plenty for sale on Gunbroker and Empire Arms, which is a great site for old rifles.

About the rifle used in the movie though, I'm surprised its not listed on Internet Movie Firearms Database yet. I'm sure at some point someone will and the mystery will be over!

[–] wanton87 (934) 7 years ago

I wasn’t aware of Empire Arms, thanks. I also like Track of The Wolf for curio and relics. Hopefully someone will recognize the gun being used in the movie and add it to the trivia section.

The link below lists many of the bolt actions from the 19th century, so maybe the answer is hidden in there somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_action

Here’s a similar thread questioning the authenticity of the arms being used for the period, that you might find interesting:

https://moviechat.org/tt0048691/The-Tall-Men/58c7221e5ec57f0478eb91b2/Date-not-even-close

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

Here's my theory. I think it could have been a Dutch Beaumont M1871. There were lots of Dutch settlers in that area and time period, so it wouldn't be far fetched to bring a rifle since most were farmers or agricultural laborers. Not to mention the Liz's family and the whole Church Congregation were Dutch as well.

The director Martin Koolhoven has a website, so I sent him a message. I will post his reply if he responds.

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

Solved. Got an email back from the director.

'"I can remember talking about it with the art departement and the people providing the guns. I remember I said it should be an old rifle (also in the story which is set late 19th century) and how many times it should be able to fire.
If memory serves right we settled for an old Hungarian rifle. Can’t remember the exact type, though."

"I think the guns and rifles in the movie are correctly dated, except for the captive bolt pistol that is used to slaughter the pig. I knew I was using something that was invented a few years later, but I figured we could get away with that."

So with that said, I'll assume its a Mannlicher M1888.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannlicher_M1888

[–] wanton87 (934) 7 years ago

Thanks for the update. I checked it out briefly, and it looks like an improvement over what most armies just a few years prior were issued. I’ve never heard of the “semi-smokeless” powder before. Must have been an earlier, lower pressure, nitrocellulose based composition?

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

I've never heard of semi-smokeless powder either. Smokeless powder was first invented by the French in 1884, was adopted by their Military in 1887 and most European Countries followed this example. My Argentine
Mauser was built for smokeless powder and shoots modern factory ammo just fine.

I don't totally understand what semi-smokeless powder is, but I keep coming back to this response for an explanation:
-----------------------------------

"I'm not sure that semi-smokeless is actually mixed black and smokeless powder."

It wasn't.

King's Semi-smokeless powder was based largely on nitrated wood pulp, giving it roughly 20% nitrocellulose.

Lesmoke powder actually had charcoal as part of the mixture and contained only 10 to 20% nitrocellulose.

It was the filler components that gave much of the smoke in these, and similar, powders.

Apparently they also left a fair amount of barrel residue, as well.

[–] wanton87 (934) 7 years ago

Thanks for the explanation. I think I might understand a little better what it is now. It sounds as if they replaced the potassium nitrate (salt petre) used in black powder, with a lower percentage nitrocellulose. The Lesmoke blend had charcoal, which is another ingredient of blackpowder, which would explain why it’s so sooty, as is blackpowder. The King’s blend substituted the wood pulp (possibly charred) for charcoal. At least that’s my theory, I’m sort of guessing.

I have blackpowder guns, and they’re very messy to shoot, but are really a lot of fun.

[–] fishrock (53) 7 years ago

I came here just for this thread.

I think you're mistaken, but I certainly could be wrong about that. I just don't think it was a Mannlicher M1888. I didn't see a box magazine, and the rifle was too short.

My first guess is the M71 Mauser, but it is a single shot bolt action rifle so it is wrong, but the muzzle end looks close.

My 2nd guess is the Chassepot 1866 model. 3rd guess is the Kropatschek MLE 1878, but I don't think so. Too late.

All of the other guns seem to fit, but draw me closer to 1870. Liz used an 1866 Winchester and I remember seeing a Henry, which is 1860. Most, if not all of the pistols were 1860's model or earlier. Were there any Colt Peacemakers? They wouldn't be around until 1873. I don't recall seeing any.

I know this is just academic, but I enjoy it. Do we really know what year the show takes place?

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

I think your right. There was no magazine on the rifle now that I think of it. I have a couple pictures of the rifle that the director sent me when I inquired. If you want to message me your email, I can forward it to you.

We don't know the exact dates except that it takes place late in the 19th Century.

[–] fishrock (53) 7 years ago

I have to watch the movie again. With all due respect to your source, I am pretty sure that isn't the rifle the guy was using. I would have recognized that rifle instantly. It has a very distinctive front end, almost identical to that of the K98 Mauser which was the standard issue rifle for German troops in ww2.

The rifle in the pictures you sent is an early Gew98 Mauser, or a contract variant because of the straight bolt handle. I'll have to watch the movie again to be certain, but I am pretty sure that is not the rifle the guy was shooting. And it wasn't made until 1898, and would not very likely be in America until after ww1. It seems too late for this movie, where everything else is 1870's, and nothing I can recall seeing is beyond the mid 1870's. Plus, the G98, as most military rifles after about 1888, were smokeless powder rifles, and the rifle the guy was shooting was not.

I have to watch that scene again.

[–] fishrock (53) 7 years ago

I change my mind. The rifle is probably a Gew98 like your source said. There are a couple angles that made me think otherwise, but looking at it again and considering the possibility, I have to rethink, and I think it is a Mauser G98.

It is an early one, or foreign contract because of the straight bolt handle, and they could shoot black powder ammo as well as smokeless powder. It is an odd choice for being in America that early and dates the movie to 1898 or later, (but props can be anachronistic and just that, and the director even said the captive bolt gun was anachronistic and he didn't care.)

In any event, your source picture is correct, I think. Thanks.

[–] Padeen (6459) 7 years ago

Your right about props in movies. It was one of the first things that came to mind when I started this thread. I haven't rewatched the movie, but comparing the pictures from the prop department and file photos of the Mauser G98, they look like the same rifle.

Did Austria-Hungary use G98? Just wondering since the director thought it was an old Hungarian gun, but perhaps he was thinking of a different one that they ended up not using.

[–] fishrock (53) 7 years ago

It would very likely have been in use by the Hungarian military forces at the time. Mauserwerke made tons of them for export and they have been in military forces all over the world. Austria made rifles, but none ever achieved the popularity of the Mauser G and K 98's, which are arguably one of the finest bolt action military rifles ever made.