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PoI fans: Are there any episodes you don't like?

posted 8 years ago by outdoorcats
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I was curious if other self-professed Team Machine fans had any episodes that just didn't work for them. You could also let me know what you think of my picks and perhaps you can convince me there's something I missed and of the error of my ways (or maybe you just agree).

Season 1, Episode 12 - "Legacy"
-> Even though it has great scenes of Carter starting to work for Team Machine, this is the only episode of S1 I will skip on rewatches. This episode isn't just filled with holes in the story that don't make any sense under the slightest bit of scrutiny--it's also tonally all over the place, like they were trying to make a lighthearted/funny episode (does the lawyer really start talking about her online dating habits with her client who she's having a meeting with? ), realized it wasn't working, and tried to take it back in post-production.

Season 3, Episode 4 - "Reasonable Doubt"
-> I think this is the worst episode of the series. The writing is just plain awful, and Kathleen Rose Perkins gives a surprisingly wooden performance. At the climax of this series of absurd events, Reese goes completely dark and lets the number kill her intended victim--the same Reese that went out of his way to send the federal marshal who stalked and tried to kill his wife in "Many Happy Returns" to a South American prison so as not to go back to his old ways. And for all the hoopla Finch and Carter gave him in Many Happy Returns about not going too far, no one so much as reacts to him at the end of this one and it's never referenced or followed up on.

I digress.

Season 4, Episode 18 - "Skip"
-> Even though it has a brilliant Finch and Root subplot, and even though it features the return of Harper (who ultimately gets to steal the show with her dealmaking skills), none of this can save the main story of this episode, IMO. Simply put, Frankie is the most annoying number of the entire series, and unlike the numbers in "All In" or "Pretenders," she's not supposed to be annoying. In fact, the writers keep going out of the way to try and tell us she's supposed to be cool and lovable, in a a tough-cookie kind of way (...yeah, not buying it). Some forced attempted chemistry between her and Reese subsequently backfires.

Season 5 - None. The worst episode is probably "Truth Be Told" and it's still a pretty solid PoI episode.

Mixed feelings...

Season 1, Episode 2 - "Ghosts"
->The show was just stretching its wings so this one is a little boring. But I don't skip it because I love seeing the early days of John and Finch starting to work with and trust one another.
Season 2, Episode 12 - "Til Death"
->Don't hate this one as much as some - some of the humor sticks, the flashbacks with Grace were needed - but it's overall a bit of a slog to get through and a good candidate to skip on rewatches with its mildly satirical tone which doesn't jibe with the rest of the series.
Season 3, Episode 18 - "Allegiance"
-> Not terrible, not great either. It takes some suspension of disbelief to enjoy this one.
Season 4, Episode 4 - "Brotherhood"
-> Whenever the show tries to write for poor young Black characters, the dialogue is a little painful to listen to (compare it to the natural, very New-York-y Harlem dialogue of Luke Cage and you'll understand the importance of getting Black men and women in the writer's room). "Wolf and Cub" more than scraped by on fun and the rapport between Reese and his young charge. This one sort of scrapes by on the interesting new factor of the Brotherhood and the proper introduction of Dominic (a great character IMO).

Episodes I didn't like the first time, but liked after re-watching:
Many, but some of the big ones are S2's "C.O.D.," "One Percent," "Proteus," and "All In," Season 3's "Provenance"

Worst performance - whoever was mistakenly cast as Claire Mahoney. As much as I love the awesome storyline and writing of "Nautilus," it suffers due to her wooden performance, and she brought down "Q&A" a little with her re-appearance as well. I have mixed feelings about her not appearing in S5. On one hand, it's a slightly disappointing loose end. On the other hand, I'm just relieved.

[–] jon_lajoie 8 years ago

6742 and A More Perfect Union are the first to come to mind.

I...drink...your...MILKSHAKE!

I DRINK IT UP!!!

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

I personally loved them both, even though 6742 essentially appropriated an old Angel episode called "Awakenings" (anyone nerdy enough to get this reference? also starring Amy Acker btw). A More Perfect Union *should* have been terrible but everything about it was done so well IMO that it worked really well as a funny, bittersweet throwback to "classic" PoI. I'd also argue it was a necessary "calm before the storm" episode before the increasingly grim series of final episodes leading to the endgame.

[–] jon_lajoie 8 years ago

I know the bar is set high for cheesy moments, but Finch as a recovering alcoholic uncle was painful to watch, particularly his rendition of "we're not gonna take it."

I...drink...your...MILKSHAKE!

I DRINK IT UP!!!

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

I was laughing harder at those scenes than I had at any since Harold accidentally got high in Season 1. 

[–] maxpierreburke 8 years ago

i didn't even see the resemblance at first, but yeah it is like awakening. that's probably why i loved it..

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

6742 and A More Perfect Union are the first to come to mind. - jon_lajoie

I liked A More Perfect Union (2016), but agree with you about 6,741 (2016).

"6741" may be my least favorite episode of the entire series. I probably wouldn't mind it so much in a full 22 episode season. But in a shortened 13 episode season, where they have to make every episode count, they wasted an entire episode on events that don't actually happen!

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

As with the aforementioned Angel episode, I see it as a brilliant character study of Shaw (important for her because, like John, she's not a 'sharing and caring' type and there was still a lot we didn't know about her). We learned more about her in that episode than any of the others combined (even Razgovor).

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

As with the aforementioned Angel episode, I see it as a brilliant character study of Shaw (important for her because, like John, she's not a 'sharing and caring' type and there was still a lot we didn't know about her). We learned more about her in that episode than any of the others combined (even Razgovor). - outdoorcats

I never watched "Angel", so I can't comment on that.

I never really saw "6741" as a character study. I saw it as an attempt to trick the audience, and also a way to throw red meat to the Shoot shippers without it having any real impact on the story.

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

Maybe I didn't see it that way since I guessed it was all a simulation from the start, so I paid attention to what it revealed about Shaw (and in some cases, what it revealed about how Samaritan would "write" for the rest of Team Machine). For instance, the episode reveals that she actually has feelings for Root, which I wouldn't have guessed from If-Then-Else (thought it was a "pity kiss" in that episode tbh and that Shaw wasn't capable of having those types of feelings for anyone).

I would give the episode another go sometime, I think it deserves a second look.

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Maybe I didn't see it that way since I guessed it was all a simulation from the start, so I paid attention to what it revealed about Shaw (and in some cases, what it revealed about how Samaritan would "write" for the rest of Team Machine). - outdoorcats

I did not realize it was a simulation until Shaw "shot" Reese.

I would give the episode another go sometime, I think it deserves a second look. - outdoorcats

I own Season 5 on DVD, and am currently in the process of rewatching it. I did see "6741" again not that long ago, and a second viewing didn't lessen my dislike for it. This is an instance where my mileage varied.

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

Fair enough...we'll agree to disagree on this one.

[–] maxpierreburke 8 years ago

yeah im going to call bull on that..

[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

Thank you for reviving the discussion here. You make some good points, although I don't agree with everything - and you bother to describe them.

I didn't have problems with the episode 'legacy', for me it was an o.k. episode, not bad, but not outstanding. The story was a bit farfetched, you're right about that, but the highlights for me were Reeses description of his boss and later the lawyers heartfelt gratitude to Reese, he doesn't get that very often.

I also had no problems with 'Reasonable doubt'. The story resembles a bit the one with the editor couple who try to kill each other. Main difference that may explain Reese' and Finches behaviour: the two lawyers are both cold and calculating people and there is no danger for collateral damage. Therefore the viewer can understand Reeses frustration and leaving the situation. This is very different to the Marshall episode, there the abusing stalking husband needed to be punished, not killed, because rotting away in a Mexican prison might be the worse punishment. We never see Reese killing one of the perpetrators in cold blood (but he would have done so with Quinn), that would be a digression of the morale of the show itself - but just leaving the situation and let two cruel person take care of themselves can be reasonable - what else could he have done?

I also didn't like 'Nautilus' - probably the same reason that you described: the storyline was clever, the execution good, but the actor didn't work for me. She was to be the fanatic kind and therefore nothing that Finch could have done to save her, he failed to convince her and that was logical.

The episode I didn't like at all was 'Proteus'. The story was totally artifical, like an Agatha-Cristy-like setup, everyone trapped in a small location and a murderer active among them. And Finch flying in with a small Cesna while the storm is blowing - come on - that was crap! And Finch saved twice in the same situation first by Carter than by Cal - that was too much.
The only good aspect here was the bad guy - he gave a really creepy performance by imitating Finch.

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

I do remember Reese taking some hilarious jabs at Finch in the meeting with the lawyer while Finch listened in with annoyance. 

What made me like Proteus much more on a rewatch was the atmosphere and ominous tone, which ties in with the Machine starting to malfunction. I agree the setup was very Agatha Christie-like (or like the 2003 film Identity, or like Storm of the Century), but I'm a little embarrassed to say how much I enjoyed PoI putting their spin on that little trope (you're absolutely right about Finch being saved twice - that was over the top).

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

small correction to your list: 'Til Death' is episode 8, season 2, not 12.

So I looked up the list on wikipedia and this is my list of the episodes I enjoyed not so much as the others, although - of course - all of them are good in a way:

season 1: Ep. 13 - Root Cause (not because of the introduction of Root but because of the PoI)
S. 1, Ep. 8 Foe - also because of the PoI - he was so much NOT German, all faked accents, but shooting the government car with the sniper rifle was cool.

s. 2. Ep. 4 Triggerman (storyline too simple, but raises again the question who is worth to be saved)
s. 2. Ep. 6 - High Road - just putting Reese as Mr. Everybody in the suburbs wasn't quite enough for the story to be really intersting
s. 2. Ep. 7 - Crtical - same here, storyline too simple
s. 2. Ep. 15 Booked Solid - just one storyline

s. 3, Ep. 1 - Liberty, just an o.k. episode, didn't like the way they made Shaw eat that steak but did like the end when Reese tells the guy to say no to the guys from Langley. Would have like to have gotten here more background or Reese to open up to Finch.
S. 3, ep.14 Provenance

s. 4 ep.4 Brotherhood - not enough background on the FBI lady, why she worked for the brotherhood
S. 4 ep. 17 - Karma - the story about the psychologist was kind of too emotional, didn't feel real
s. 4 ep 19 Search and Destroy - the story about the CEO was somehow cold and cruel

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

Well definitely have to agree to disagree on some of these - personally, "Root Cause," "Foe," and "Search and Destroy" are some of my favorite episodes. Root Cause was the first and best of PoI's "Political Thriller" episodes, and I thought "Foe" was a hugely emotional one with a great story and a lot of eerie foreshadowing of the series finale (watch this scene again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PSDmdGZ8c...clearly, they had some idea of where they were going with the endgame with that whole unmarked graves scene). And Search and Destroy is certainly bleak and cruel but I guess that's what I like about it, its uncompromising nature (same for the similar "QSO").

[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

Well, of course you're right about Root Cause, the story was realy good, the setup and how you could change the outcome of elections when you have a clever hacker at work. I just didn't like the way they described the PoI, he was too demanding our pity.

But 'Foe' - I don't know. To show us how sad the life of spys is and how they could end, of course Reese was meant to see his own life and ending, but that was too straightforward, not really cleverly made, like we saw in later episodes. And being German myself I have problems with American TV picking up topics they don't realy know. Where was he supposed to be for 24 years? In solitary imprisonement in the Ukraine? And then getting out looking good and well dressed and smart as could be?! No - that was not believable. And hey - there certainly are a lot of German actors willing to take over roles in American TV so that they don't sound so fake when they are talking. That was so stereotype!

[b]When you look at season 4, ep. 5 'Prophets' you can see how the show has evolved. You can compare that one to Root Cause, a similar topic about election fraud.
Dialogue between Finch and Root "She chose me. I will protect you." "The second a bullet enters your brain, the machine will cast you off and replace you!" (He wasn't right there or was he?) Root "I am scared. We are losing. But I know where I am and where I am heading." Finch "We have more to look forward to than death." R. "I hope so. But the life I have led... a good ending would be a privilege." ....and later Finch: "You don't have to do this alone." She says if I don't all of us die."

This is a forshadowing of the end of the series that I understood much later. And Reese's destiny is strangely connected to Root. We see him only a short time later in the interview with Iris: "You don't have to save everybody." "Yes I do. There are far to many bad people in this world and not enough good. ...If I don't save these people nobody will."

So that was clearly a warning of the writers for us about where those two are heading and much better made, not so direct, as in Foe.

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

Perhaps they jumped a little to eagerly at the opportunity to cast Alan Dale (from another Bad Robot show, LOST) rather than getting an actual German actor. But as the show got closer and closer to the endgame it probably had to be more indirect about the foreshadowing...most viewers during the first season are just thinking, "What type of show is this? Will it be renewed for a second season?" etc. while in the penultimate season they're thinking, "I heard it only got renewed for one more season and that's it. I wonder how it will end?"

[–] outdoorcats 8 years ago

"Last Call" definitely required some suspension of disbelief to accept the central premise...I didn't hate it but it felt a little half baked.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

I am not sure I have understood what you meant by that. Can you explain a little bit more?

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

Thanks for the explanations. You got me confused with the name Wesley - I suppose you mean Lambert, Greers second man? Wesley was the MI6 agent?

The use of technology is one main topic of the show and it is good that you made those differences. Root has dedicated her life for it, Finch stays sceptical because of what he went through creating the machine and the others don't have the full picture of what is possible and what the consequences are - not even Greer had thought it through like Finch did.

The concept of Vigilance and Colliers role in it was not very convincing for me, it seemed a bit weak, that he never questioned who might be behind all. Was he so blind with rage and pain that he stopped thinking?

Well Dominic was smart enough, he found out about the help Elias got from Finch and Reese. But still he was so proud by his own success that he underestimated Elias' cunning and thought he could bring the 'Tech guys' to work for him by brute force.

And there is one group of person that you haven't mentioned: the agents who are sent out to kill and get no information about the circumstances. They are forced to stop asking questions and that is something that is doomed to fail. You cannot have highly trained and intelligent people and then use them as hitmen. Nearly half of those that are shown in the show have problems with that (Reese, Grice and Shaws partner).

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] bi-azh 8 years ago

o.k. I thought that Wesley wasn't an important figure.
I like that you point out how smart Dominic was, although Elias said so several times. Speaking of The Wire, I found that show tiresome and gave up after several episodes, never understood the hype about it.

Do you know this: https://personofinterestdiscussion.com/content/oh-lives-we-could-have-led-what-season-5-and-season-6-should-have-been

This person has put some work in developing different story lines.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] blackflag01609 8 years ago

Can't say individual episodes, this is one show I never bothered learning the episode titles. I would say most of season 4. I quite frankly don't remember any of them all that well so they couldn't have been all that good.  I ended up watching that season for Elias.

[–] MrSpock (286) 8 years ago

Much of seasons 4 and 5.

[–] wheelin176 (2050) 7 years ago

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