Changes you would make - Pan Am (2011) Discussion

[–] srcb2 13 years ago

I would cut back Kate's CIA storyline substantially, maybe to once every few episodes.

Colette is my favorite character, too. She and Dean make a cute couple.

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[–] jtyroler 13 years ago

I think Dean and Colette need to break up - if things go too far along, then, I think, it would be kind of unrealistic for a 'couple' to continue flying together. If they break up, then you have a source of tension between the two characters - although they could be an on-again/off-again couple for a while.

It would interesting to have Kate on an assignment that gets totally messed up - for example, if she had an assignment in Venezuela when the passenger had the heart attack and they never made it. They could have it where Kate is supposed to deliver something to Saigon, but they have to reroute to Manilla, and, whatever she was supposed to deliver could have prevented the assassination of the South Vietnamese President (he was killed a few weeks before JKF was assassinated).

They could get hijacked to Cuba - that happened during the 60s. Perhaps be the flight crew that The Beatles arrive in New York City on - that would be pretty cool.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

Hijackings to Cuba didn't start happening until late in the decade.

I've brought it up before - if Dean and Colette were to secretly marry, there could be a humorous subplot in which they go to great lengths to try to keep their secret marriage a secret. It could wind up being the worst-kept secret among the crew - they know, but top brass never finds out. I'd hate to see them break up even though not all relationships work out. They would probably be so uncomfortable working together that they would almost never speak to each other.

If they wanted to, had Kiss Kiss Bang Bang immediately followed Unscheduled Departure the following week, they could have had Dean use the same line with Colette after she kissed him that she used on him at the beginning of the Berlin episode: "It was a moment. A nice moment, but that was all." In other words, I know you like me, and I like you too - but as a friend. Nothing more.

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[–] jnhf24 13 years ago

I agree there is too much of Kate's CIA story. I'd like to see more focus on the feminist movement and racial tensions of the time. I think had they spread out the Joe and Laura storyline over a couple episodes the impact would have been greater.

More scenes between all 4 of the girls as a group would be fun too.

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[–] violetstart 13 years ago

Definitely agree with that! Racism and the feminist movement were definitely majorly important back then... and so far they have only touched on it slightly.

I did love the truth or dare scene... all four together would be great. Usually they are for some reason separated or fighting for some reason. All four together just hanging out would be great.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

I'd love to see a major gigglefest make the final cut in an episode sometime. Margot Robbie mentioned that Christina tends to snort when she laughs and once that happens, Margot can't stop laughing.

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[–] jnhf24 13 years ago

That's why I hope the show continues. There is so much potential that they've barely grazed the surface of. And the show's strength is the ladies, so it'd be nice to see them working together and hanging out more to connect all the storylines.

And why are there no consequences to anyone's actions? It comes off as a joke when the characters can get away with crazy actions. I enjoyed that the story revolved around the plane and the crew had to work as a team, but episode 8 still leaves me baffled.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

Yeah, there were just a few rule violations in Episode 8:

Leaving the corpse of a paying passenger behind in Haiti.
Bringing a stowaway on board (although you can't argue about that from a humanitarian point of view).
A stewardess telling off a paying passenger (Maggie's, "Go back to your seat and shut up!").
Dean not following regulations concerning takeoff (he didn't have much of a choice - either try or be taken hostage).
Kissing in uniform in an employee lounge (Colette probably didn't care - Dean was a hero at that point and she wanted to show her appreciation. Besides, most of us expected them to kiss sooner or later.).

The more I think about it, Colette could have used her, "It was a moment, Captain," line again when Dean asked her why she kissed him in Miami. Of course, at that point, she was so upset it probably didn't occur to her to use it.

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[–] Starchie28 13 years ago

Completely disagree on more stories focusing on the feminist movement and racial tensions. Obviously this was a large part of this era, but this subject has been done to death elsewhere. The good thing about Kate's CIA involvement is that it opens up a wealth of story possibilities, all a lot more interesting than "will Dean and Collete stay together?"

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

Srcb2 wrote:
"I would cut back Kate's CIA storyline substantially..."

In my view, the Cold War espionage subplots are a major distraction and
should be eliminated. I suppose that these subplots were included because
the producers were afraid that the "normal" storylines would be too boring.
So why not (as done by other shows) throw in some gratuitous easy "thrills"?

Srcb2 wrote:
"Colette is my favorite character..."

I don't have a favourite character. I would find Colette more interesting,
however, if her character had been developed in ways that seemed more less
safely endearing to an American audience. What if Colette's father had been
a French collaborator with the Germans? Or what if Colette once had stood
up and said something like, "I'm a Frenchwoman, not an American, and I don't
think that the United States always acts in the best interests of my country."
But, playing it safe, the show never would take any risks like that.

It's a question of taste, but I prefer dramatic programmes that embrace risks,
which dare to venture beyond the safe and predictable and easy-to-please.

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[–] Starchie28 13 years ago

n my view, the Cold War espionage subplots are a major distraction and
should be eliminated. I suppose that these subplots were included because
the producers were afraid that the "normal" storylines would be too boring.
So why not (as done by other shows) throw in some grautuitous easy "thrills"?

Easy thrills? Seriously? It takes a lot more imagination to make an interesting story out of Kate's CIA involvement, than spinning the usual romance angle. It also enables the writers to give us a unique perspective on to the political climate at the time (like when she got involved with the guy from Yugoslavia). Take the story in the Soviet Union - there is no way they could have made it that interesting if she didn't have the CIA connection - it would have just been a boring story with maybe a touch of female empowerment.

I'll go a step further and say that Kate's character (like Peggy on Mad Men) is leading the way toward developing a character that reflects the spirit of the feminist movement, fortunately without beating us over the head with obvious dramatics. Honestly, I was very skeptical about this angle until seeing what the writers have done with it.

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

Starchie28 wrote:
"Easy thrills? Seriously? It takes a lot more imagination to make an
interesting story out of Kate's CIA involvement..."

Starchie28 seems to have misunderstood what I wrote. What I had in mind
was this: a meeting in which the show's "creative people" are discussing
how to improve it. "How can we make this show more thrilling at once?"
"That's easy, we'll just add some spy stuff, there's built-in danger and
suspense." I meant that's *easy to suggest*, but not necessarily *easy to
put into practice* with enough plausibility.

Starchie28 seems quite impressed by the subplot with Kate and "the guy from
Yugoslavia". I was not impressed because I know enough about Yugoslavia's
history and politics to think that "the guy from Yugoslavia" was not a
plausible character. I suppose that one can be more easily entertained by
"Pan Am" if one's more ignorant of history and cares less about plausibility.

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[–] Starchie28 12 years ago

What's interesting is your perception that the show's "creative people" would somehow take your rather childish approach to improve the show by adding the spy element. It completely ignores the fact that whatever decisions they made, they added an element that demands a bit more from the user in understanding the politics at that time. Seriously, whether you found the storyline plausible (and we have no reason other than your vague comment to find it implausible), a spy story involving someone from Yugoslavia isn't exactly the kind of idea that would get people excited, particularly Americans. It shows they were willing to dig a little deeper and assume the audience was smarter than let's say, someone who might watch the latest Die Hard sequel. In my case, it encouraged me to spend some time actually reading about what was going on with Yugoslavia at that time.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] gheilers 10 years ago

I completely disagree. The Cold War sub-plots are the best elements of the show. I wanted to see *more* of them. Most rational-minded Americans would. The best episode was "Ich Bin Ein Berliner" - because of the political elements and Collette's back-story. Most, if not all, scenes involving Maggie's being a "rebel" and/or Laura being an innocent young girl taking her first steps in the real world...are cringe-inducing and warrant fast-forwarding.

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[–] crockett_john 12 years ago

Yeah, the CIA storyline was just weird and didn't fit the rest of the context of the show. It didn't even really make sense for her to be doing that kind of work.

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[–] MarlaMayes 13 years ago

I love the show and the characters and the storylines just the way are! I thought I read somewhere that Colette was leaving?

Agree with the Beatles tie-in, there's a publicity pic of them in front of a Pan Am logo-so there must be a real connection that would be a fun storyline.

Mostly just wish they'd get back to a regular schedule and a better timeslot.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

There was some speculation that Colette may be absent from Episode 11 since there is no mention of her in any of the storylines. Maybe she'll be temporarily reassigned because of the fallout from Episode 10, if it goes the way most of us seem to think. Karine is definitely not leaving the show.

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[–] innocent_chick 13 years ago

She's not mentioned in the episode description..but she's definitely in the episode ;) I've seen the sides..

Also, things from episode 8 (Haiti) will come up again in later episodes. Things will be addressed..they won't just leave that up in the air.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

Karine has said more than once that Colette always falls for someone who turns out to be unavailable, so chances are her relationship with this Omar person will be short-lived. As for Dean, it's a classic case of not realizing what he had with Colette until he lost her. Judging from what Mike said in the Episode 9 spoiler, I get the impression the two of them will reconcile and get back together before the end of the final episode. I hope so, anyway. He said matters would become complicated, but "if she's The One, it was worth the complication."

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

I wonder if there will be any other ramifications/consequences as a result of what happened in Haiti. Surely Colette could get written up or suspended for bringing that refugee along and Maggie could face the same punishment for telling off Miguel.

Ultimately, Dean will probably bear the brunt. As captain, he had the final say in everything. Say what you want, but he let Colette overrule him concerning that refugee.

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[–] li_baby_18 13 years ago

Dean gets his pilots license revoked for six months for his part in Haiti!

Wait is Dean really getting suspended or is that person just saying they wish it'll happen?

If it's true does anybody have the source press release that says this to confirm?

God I hope it's not true.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] li_baby_18 13 years ago

I think Teddy Bear should be Captain, and Sanjeev should be First Officer while Captain Casanova is gone. I also think Sanjeev should get his own spin-off show once "Pan Am" ends.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

Dean could finally give Colette that long-awaited flying lesson in the last episode. I still say they'll reconcile and get back together before the final fade.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

FordMadoxFordMadox wrote:
"...poor Maggie who's probably going to lose her mind when JFK dies, and
will want to run off and join a convent in her grief...or run for Congress."

If Maggie were less infatuated and more perceptive, she should have noticed that
JFK the President did not measure up to JFK the Tragic Legend (posthumously).
(In 1963 many Americans loathed JFK.) And if Maggie had spent enough time
alone with her hero, given his appetite for women, she might have found out,
enjoyably or not, how he measured up as JFK the Man.

Rather than joining a convent (she seems agnostic or atheist, not Catholic),
Maggie might find a night of comfort in the arms of a black African student
of Muslim heritage (who also was studying Portuguese). After falling pregnant,
Maggie might have to choose between moving to Hawaii or her lover's homeland!

If she ran for Congress, Maggie could have been as outspoken as Jeanette
Rankin, who was the first woman elected to the US Congress and the only
member to vote against the US entering the Second World War.

FordMadoxFordMadox wrote:
"...well, she's going to lose it."

Given her past and her apparent belief that she could get away with anything,
I assumed that Maggie already had "lost it", whatever it is.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

My aunt and uncle, both of whom are now deceased, thought JFK was the greatest thing since sliced bread. They even went so far as to buy a two-LP set of his funeral Mass in Boston, recorded live and featuring the Boston Symphony performing Mozart's Requiem. I kept it and still have it, being a musician myself.

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[–] JoeCSU 12 years ago

I honestly thought that every episode of "Pan Am" would be on the airplane! Like, the whole episode would be storylines taking place on the plane or at the airport. I thought maybe it was going to be a dramedy with really good special guest stars every week. The humor would come from all the new passengers they would meet week by week. And then get into some trouble when they traveled around the world and made their stops.....

Was it the cast we didn't fall in love with? Maybe they needed an older rookie to fly or be a stewardess to keep the show flowing.

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[–] hoganismydad 13 years ago

I just think that Pan Am doesn't seem to want to know what it's about. Is it about the 60s? An airline in the 60s? Sexual or racial politics of the 60s? hard to say. This would be forgivable if the characters were well-defined, but they aren't. If you just show me some dialogue from an episode of Cheers or even a more recent show like Breaking Bad, I can probably tell you who's talking without seeing any names. The characters are that vividly drawn. In Pan Am, the characters all seem interchangeable. Yes, some almost meet JFK and others are spies, and that's all perfectly well and good, but James Bond is a famous character because he's James Bond, not because he's a spy. Because of his style and his personality. None of these characters have that.

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[–] Starchie28 13 years ago

Unfortunately, what you are describing makes it sound like you want more broadly-defined stereotypes instead of real people. What makes this show interesting is that the characters do have personalities, but there are still shades of gray.

Isn't that part of the appeal of Mad Men as well, which this show is clearly taking some queues from? As much as we might dislike Don Draper's behavior, the show isn't bending over backward to make sure we know he's a good guy or bad guy. If anything, he's a reflection of the times and his personal life experience, and that's what keeps it interesting.

Pan Am isn't quite this subtle but I'm glad the writers have chosen not to follow the same formula because they think I'm not smart enough to get it.

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[–] blondee661 13 years ago

I think this show needs more screentime with the actual girls together, they work together but we really don't see them together. Did that make any sense?

Also how about actually following storylines on a consistent basis and actually seeing consequences. It's like some of their actions go unnoticed at all!

I also wish they would try a little harder with the costumes and hairstyles on some of the characters, every time I see Bridget she doesn't look like she belongs in the 1960s at all, at least her hair!

I still think it's a great show, and has a lot of potential, and I really hope ABC keeps renews it for a second season when the time comes.

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[–] gulf_coast_highwayman 13 years ago

Laura would be gay, and Pippa Black would join the show as her love interest.

PHEC!

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[–] keywestmusicinc 13 years ago

I would simply like to see more of the demands of being a Pan Am stewardess, dealing with their bosses and eccentric passengers. Not much, but maybe just 30 second cuts. I love this show, but they can just move it along a little faster

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] TANSD76 13 years ago

If I could change something... well, how about getting rid of all this American cowboy B.S.? I'm fine with Westerns, don't get me wrong. But the attitude that especially Kate and Dean have in so many situations is incredibly annoying. This is not behavior that should be applauded. I was appalled in the latest episode when Kate told the woman (codename: Anastasia) "I don't care if this puts you in danger."

...how about some attempt at realism? If Kate is going to be CIA, at least create a realistic sense of danger and not one where she just magically gets out of every situation by the end of the episode. Could someone please get punished for being irresponsible?

...how about trying to show something genuine about all the countries they visit? It's bad enough the cast is full of irresponsible, spoiled children who traipse around like there are no rules they can't break with their American-ness. Could we please get some non-Caucasian characters at least when they visit other countries? The one plotline with Laura and the African American sailor was just embarrassing.

I don't know how to fix this series without new writers or new actors. The only likable people in the show have been Colette and Nico. I'm American and this is the kind of writing and representation that makes other countries dislike Americans.

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[–] inlovewithmovies 13 years ago

No more flight is in trouble Haitti episodes or politically correct preachy racial love plot storylines. In more capable hands that would be fine...but just seeing the writing here it comes off either as preachy and superficial or just agonizing like the Haitti land the plane scene. I remember feeling really annoyed that they spent an entire hour on a guy with a condition on a plane and they had to ground the plane....ugh. The spy thing would be more interesting if it seemed more realistic... first Kate's motivation is dubious....second she doesn't come off well as a spy....it just feels like a mall girl playing spy. Bridget looks more like a spy...and if you're going to have that storyline...have more of a dramatic dillemma... Also give Maggie and Laura more to do and better storylines... Christina Ricci is a talented actress...but the character they give her is just downright annoying... Her running in to burn the congressmen speech was just bizarre-first it didn't fit her character up until that point and second it was just so annoying.... it's ill-defined characters like that which make the show hard to watch at times... the characters action seems to just service whatever plot point they want to go rather than well-defined characters. Like in Married with Children, we know eactly how Al Bundy would react.

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[–] Starchie28 13 years ago

how about some attempt at realism? If Kate is going to be CIA, at least create a realistic sense of danger and not one where she just magically gets out of every situation by the end of the episode. Could someone please get punished for being irresponsible?

Seriously? So when her contact is ready to be knifed by the target, and she has to either run or shoot him, that's not creating a sense of danger? When she has to take the lie detector test from MI6 after being trained in how to lie, despite her conflicted feelings, that's not creating realistic tension? Or when she had to sneak out of the hotel in Russia to meet the spy, knowing that if she got caught that would be it, that didn't create a realistic sense of danger? And by the way, she said that line because her friends/co-workers would have been stuck in a Russian jail for who knows how long, with possibly no chance of getting out.

On top of that, we should get "non-caucasian" characters involved, because what we really need to reflect reality in the 60s is integration. And more stories about how oppressed African-Americans were because we haven't had enough of those.

Your entitled to your opinion but your post is just annoying and unfair to the show.

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[–] TANSD76 12 years ago

There's no real sense of danger because all the tension gets diffused. Everything gets played off like a joke or a game. When the two men are fighting, she's not really in danger. She shoots someone and the worst thing that happens is she has to take a lie detector test? There's a difference between writing that there is a threat present and making the presence of a threat felt. Kate looks a little worried sometimes but she's never in danger for very long and she's always sure to give a hair flip or a one-liner.

I didn't say you need integration but they're going to other countries.

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

TANSD76 wrote:
"I'm American and this is the kind of writing and representation that makes
other countries dislike Americans."

Before "Pan Am" ever appeared, Americans already had a common international
reputation for being ignorant, arrogant, and ethnocentric. And the people
in many other countries already had many other compelling reasons (such as
US foreign, military, or economic policies, not to mention US war crimes) to
despise the United States, at least the US government or US military, though
not necessarily to dislike Americans as individual persons.

I hope that most Americans can understand that, while many people have strong
reasons to despise the US government or US military, many of these people
don't dislike most Americans as people or everything about American culture.
But many ignorant Americans seem to believe, "They hate us for our freedoms."

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[–] TANSD76 12 years ago

I think we agree, but just in case you took my comments the wrong way, I do agree with you. The characters of Pan Am embody that ignorant, arrogant, reckless stereotype in a way that is idealized, celebrated, and often rewarded. They shouldn't be hated for their freedom. They should be hated for acting like willful, spoiled children who believe their ideology can and should be mapped onto every people and culture they encounter.

I don't think all Americans are like this. I'm just saying that the show is portraying the ones with the worst qualities as the ones we should idealize.

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

In my view, "Pan AM" is broken and beyond fixing, unless it could be rewritten
and recast from the ground up. My concept of the show is that should involve
some interesting stories (some humourous, some poignant) intersecting the
normal routines of the airline and the normal working lives of the crew.
Instead, the show has been developed as a soap opera (which too often seems
wildly implausible) wherein an airline's only involved as the background.
Wouldn't many of the subplots be no less implausible if the characters were
not employed by an airline?

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[–] Starchie28 13 years ago

How would you account for an average person going to the cold-war era Soviet Union? Or Haiti?

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

Starchie28 wrote:
"How would you account for an average person going to the cold-war era
Soviet Union? Or Haiti?"

Have you ever noticed that sometimes "an average person" is not an American?

During the Cold War, some Americans did visit and even study in the USSR.
And Haiti sometimes has been unable to stop Americans from entering at will,
particularly when those Americans wear military uniforms and carry weapons.
In the show, the airliner was not scheduled to visit Haiti; it made an
emergency landing there (implausibly, given the options available).

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Emma_Woodhouse 13 years ago

FordMadoxFordMadox wrote: "The average person could visit the Soviet Union."

Even when Stalin was in power (at least until 1945), some Americans worked
in the USSR. Some Americans were experts sent by their employers (during
the 1930s) or by the US government (during the Second World War) to assist
Soviet industrial and technological development. And some other Americans
went to live and work in the USSR because they were sympathetic to Communism
or they were made desperate enough by being unable to find jobs in the USA.
A few African-Americans emigrated to the USSR because they hoped that they
would experience less racism than in the USA. Yelena Khanga (born in 1961)
wrote a memoir: Soul to Soul: The Story of a Black Russian American Family.

The most notorious American who moved to the USSR was Lee Harvey Oswald.

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[–] srcb2 13 years ago

My cousin visited Lithuania in late June and early July of 1967. He was studying in France and was born in Paris before my uncle moved his family to Montreal. Even so, he was camped out in front of the Soviet embassy for quite some time before he got a ten-day visa. He traveled by train and was met by one of my uncles in Vilnius (my father had four older brothers, three of whom remained in Lithuania). They dressed him up as a local and one of my cousins (who was tragically killed a few months later in an accident) took him to the family homestead on his motorcycle. We met him at JFK Airport when he was en route to Montreal for the summer and he stayed with us for a few days, telling us about his experience there.

I've only been to Lithuania since it became independent, but I've heard about what it ws like to travel with an excursion. They wouldn't let you out of Vilnius, but they might take you to Kaunas for a one-day trip. One guy that I know managed to visit his relatives outside Vilnius, and at one point someone knocked on the door and told him to get back to the hotel because they were looking for him.

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[–] Starchie28 12 years ago

Emma_Woodhouse wrote: "Have you ever noticed that sometimes "an average person" is not an American?"

Late to respond, but it's interesting that deflect my question with another, vaguely-related question that really answers nothing. As clever as you think your comment about the average person not always being American, the fact is that the show was about Americans, an American airline and the experiences working with it brought. In addition, somehow we are supposed to take your word that an airplane landing in Haiti was implausible?

Sorry the show was canceled.

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[–] 13 years ago

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