Lee and Kirby wrote EVERYONE as white, because that was the norm 60 years ago. Young, white, American, male was the default, unless creating a character like, say, Black Panther, who was specifically created as a black hero.
When it comes down to it, skin color, gender, age, nationality-- in most cases those are all arbitrary choices that don't affect the story. In cases where it would affect it, i.e. Wakanda, it's not arbitrary, it's a plot point.
You keep ignoring that I point out that Wakanda is written to be an African nation that has been undisturbed by the outside world for 10,000 years. As far as we know, humans started to develop white skin 8,000 years ago. How exactly would Wakandans be white?
Meanwhile, Asgard-- anyhing's possible. It's a magical realm populated by aliens. Maybe Asgard *also* experienced evolution? Maybe Asgardian skin can be various colors? Who knows? More importantly, who cares? It doesn't affect the plot. Do you finally get it? Or are you being willfully obtuse to stick to your antiquated racial politics?
Nothing I'm saying is controversial. It's obvious, factual, logic. This isn't a case of us arguing whether a film is good or bad, or how well an actor captured a role.
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Frogarama (12942)
7 years ago
I guarantee these trolls have never complained and never would complain about any of the many movies that have had literally only white people in them.
Of course, it's hard to call it trolling, because many people really are as stupid, racist, and obsessed as virus is. As much effort as he's put in over the last year on this site, I wouldn't be surprised if he really was just a genuine insecure white guy who feels that the presence of non-white people is threatening to him.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
I know what you mean. Trolling is knowingly being an ass to rile people up. Ignorance is lacking enlightenment and trying to present your backwards opinions as facts because you honestly don't know better. A good troll can be fun. An ignorant person is just sad.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Right. And?
No. It's not a plot point. The point of Wakanda is an African pride nationalist country separated from the rest of the world. That's the point of Wakanda. It doesn't mean that every Wakandan needs to be black since the writers could have easily re-written Wakanda to be a multiracial country in the same way they did with Asgard. The world in which WE see Africans, could be VERY different from the world in which Africans exist in Marvels Universe. That's the point I'm making.
No. I don't finally get it. you keep on trying to pave over this plot hole using the most rudimentary arguments. Wakanda is just as imaginary as Asgard. If you want to say there's no rules because Asgardians are aliens and maybe they can race shift, ok, but then maybe they can't. So then why should we assume that they can?
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
At this point, it's just a back and forth of me throwing logic at you, and you firing back with emotion. I'll make one last attempt, after which we may have to agree to disagree.
Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? If not, Google it. k?
What are the minimum number of plot points needed to tell the Black Panther story?
1. African nation
2. Isolated by choice for approx. 10,000 years
3. near sole possessor of vibranium
That's all you need. You can add any number of other things, but you're unnecessarily muddying up the backstory. Yes, you could add
4. At some point a bunch of Europeans, Asians, Mexicans, Eskimos, were somehow allowed in and have stayed there but not intermarried and there are now many distinct ethnic groups
but why? That in no way adds to the story. Take away 1, 2, or 3 and you've lost the story. Take away 4 and the story is the same, but streamlined.
Now let's look at Asgard. What do we NEED to have?
1. alien planet
2. aliens endowed with cosmic powers that make them appear god-like to humans
That's all we need to tell Thor's story. We can add
3. they only have white skin
but, again, why? How does that help the story? It doesn't. 1 and 2 are enough. 3 convolutes the story.
You are so put off by black actors that you would rather bog down the story with jumping-through-hoops plot extras to justify whites in Africa and no blacks on an alien planet. It's just skin color. Get over it already.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
By your OWN VOLITION, you admit that the only thing you need is...
1. African nation
2. Isolated for approx. 10,000 years
3. Near sole posessor of vibranium.
In NONE of those crucial plot points, is racial purity listed. And this is your list. There's nothing keeping diversity from being part of Wakanda. There is nothing intrinsic about black DNA that is crucial to telling the story.
Adding diversity doesn't add to the story of Wakanda in as much the same as diversity doesn't add to the story of Asgard. You're contradicting yourself left right and center. The idea that Wakanda needs to be completely homogeneous makes no sense. It's not the race that makes a Wakandan. It's the nation. The exact same story could be told with a rainbow of colors and nothing would be taken away from it. Literally. It's just not as palatable for you.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
Re-read the list. If you are telling the story of an African nation that has kept all outsiders away for 10,000 years, the people there will all be black. If you choose to mix in some white people, they need to be explained.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Why? Why can't the story just assume that Wakanda was a multi-racial country in the first place? Forget colonialism or imperialism. It could easily be re-written to just assume that all of these different colors are equally Wakandan. It worked for Asgard.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
At this point we're going in circles. You're asking the same question over and over, and ignoring the answer because you can't logically refute it. Here you go AGAIN:
Because you have to write all sorts of new story to accommodate that. At the very least you have to explain
1. how all those other races came to Wakanda
2. how they even found it since it's hidden
3. why Wakanda, whose isolationism is integral to the story, chose to allow them
Why fill your story with all that extra stuff when none of it is remotely needed to tell the story?
In the spirit of the recently past Ides of March, let's imagine we're making a film about the assassination of Julius Caesar. Let's include a scene where a group of Cheyenne braves approach Caesar to discuss Roman politics for a bit before Brutus shows up and et tu's. Seems okay, right? I mean, it *could* have happened. Would make as much sense as seeing some Chinese Wakandans.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Every time you ask the question, i refute it, only to have you tell me to re-read them. We're going in circles for a reason, and it's not because of me. You lay out the ground work for why diversity works for Asgard, and not for Wakanda. Then I show you why your argument doesn't add up and can just as easily apply to Wakanda, only to have you say the same things.
No. You wouldn't need to explain how a bunch of different colors came to Wakanda, in exactly the same way that Marvel didn't explain how Heimdal and Valkyrie magically when from white in the comics to black in the movies. We've received no such explanation. Not even one that makes a modicum of sense. It was just "assumed" that this is the way it is now and it carried on with the story. The exact same thing could happen in Black Panther.
Actually no it wouldn't, because in your example you're discussing an actual event that happened according to history. Comparing a fictional country...based on a comic book...that has never existed.....to the historical accuracy of the assassination of Julius Ceaser, is not the same thing. Let's get real. But since you wanted to go down that route how about these gems of historical reinvisioning?
Black Achielles:
https://uk.blastingnews.com/showbiz-tv/2018/02/black-achilles-bbc-at-it-again-with-politically-correct-inaccuracy-002364019.html
Black Romans:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/06/mary-beard-misogynistic-race-row-bbc-cartoon-us-academic-claimed/
Black Brit that came before whites:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-briton-cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
How are you refuting anything?
Apply what you said about my ancient Rome film pitch to our Black Panther revision: "in your example you're discussing an actual event that happened according to history."
That's what Marvel is doing with Wakanda. They are taking the given, real history of Africa and adding vibranium and isolationism. You want to add ADDITIONAL elements that don't affect or propel the story and need to be explained.
With Asgard, they are creating a fictional place, and creating cosmically powerful aliens. You want to add ADDITIONAL attributes to the aliens that don't affect or propel the story and need to be explained.
In my made up story, I'm basing it on a historical event, then adding ADDITIONAL aspects that don't affect or propel the story and need to be explained.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
WAKANDA....is NOT A REAL PART OF AFRICAN HISTORY. It's just NOT. You keep on telling me why historical accuracy is essential to a FICTIONAL COUNTRY. There IS NO history to this country because it DOESN'T EXIST.
As for Asgard though, we are talking about a race of aliens developed after ancient Norse Scandinavian mythology. Vikings were white. Their gods were white. And this is reflected in the comics by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee in which these movies were based on. There is absolutely no reason in the world that justifies turning them black. NONE. If Wakanda needs a reason for diversity, so does Asgard. You can't keep jumping through hoops to justify this double standard.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
I'm done. You are the one jumping through hoops, and you know it.
You're wrong, and you know it.
Wakanda is based on African history, and as such should be rooted in reality in the same way a story about Caesar shouldn't include Cheyenne, and you know it.
Asgardians are aliens, and their genetics are immaterial to the story, and you know it.
You know you're wrong. You know you haven't got a leg to stand on, so you just shout your own shortcomings at me, hoping they'll stick.
Shout your feelings and emotions into the void for as long as you wish, they won't alter the facts.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Saying I'm wrong, isn't going to make me so. I know it may be convenient for you to just drop to conversation and pretend you won but that's no different than a toddler plugging his ears and going "lalalalalalala I can't hear you lalalalalala".
No amount of repeating yourself is going to answer the conundrum you've arrived at. Asgardians are based on the Scandinavian mythology of Nordic vikings. Who were a tribe of white Germanic nomads and travelers. Asgardians are just as white as Wakandans are black. It's just contradiction after contradiction after contradiction with you.
Been fun though.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
Have to laugh at you finishing it off with nonsense. As if Asgardians being based on Norse myths tells us anything about skin color.
I dropped the conversation because you can't offer anything but anger at hurt feelings to combat my facts.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Typically when one says they are done, they mean they won't reply. I know you're thirsty to win this, but it won't happen. You have provided no facts. not a single one. No proof of anything other than your arbitrary "rules" that exist for X but not for Y.
You can't even see the hypocrisy you write when you press enter. You're saying that Asgardians, being based off Norse mythology, which originated in white homogeneous northern Europe, don't have to be white. But SOMEHOW Wakandans, which is a fictional country based in Africa, have to remain black. The level of irony seething through your fingertips is so sweet I could go on insulin. Just the level of willful blindness to make two contradictory arguments for the exact same dilemma is fascinating.
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FilmBuff (7435)
7 years ago
It's not a win or lose thing. I'm open to admitting I'm wrong when I am, and always fine-tuning my beliefs. What we're engaged in is a never-ending back-and-forth where I state a logical fact, for example:
"Wakanda is based on African history, and as such should be rooted in reality."
To which you respond "but they could add a bunch of white people and explain it this way!"
To which I point out "That's all you need. You can add any number of other things, but you're unnecessarily muddying up the backstory."
To which you respond "but they could add a bunch of white people and explain it this way!"
ad infinitum
Simply SAYING that I'm being hypocritical or illogical doesn't make it so. Re-read our thread. I am pointing out facts, you're responding with hurt feelings.
You'll respond again, insulting me, and telling me how illogical I'm being, while never being able to point out anything illogical, or make any fact-based claims. When I don't reply, re-read this, or any of my previous responses, and continue in your circle of whiny denial.
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not_a_virus.exe (1267)
7 years ago
Show me where I'm responding to hurt feelings. I've ever once argued out of emotion. Or called you names or insulted you. Anything I called you which you took to offense, was justified in the way you frame your argument. You're just baiting and switching. It's beneath you.
I'm using your very same argument against you, which is why we're going around in circles. I'm saying X can be Y, while you're saying it can't, by showing me why Y can be X. You're both refuting yourself and proving me right at the same time.
You just DON'T get to say "Wakanda is based on Africa and therefore should reflect the homogenous race of where it originated"
And THEN get to say "Asgard is based on Norse mythology but doesn't need to reflect the homogenous race of where it originated"
Sorry. Not happening. You lose all credibility. I'm showing you why your argument is built on a contradiction and you just refuse to admit it as open minded as you pretend to be.
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