MovieChat Forums > Smash (2012) Discussion > Looking Back

Looking Back

posted 11 years ago by cjanewatch
22 replies | jump to latest

After thinking about this show for a while, there are my conclusions:

1. There's a frustrating disconnect with McPhans who see Karen as the perfect Marilyn ("She's so pure!" "She's just as vulnerable." Etc.) It's baffling to me how anyone would see that. Marilyn lost her "purity" at too young an age, but learned to use her sexuality as a powerful tool even before she was married to her first husband. Marilyn cultivated her sexy image from the start of her career. There was nothing innocent about it. She was just very good at making it appear that way. She even participated in the common practice of starlets working as prostitutes while working toward their big break.

Ironically, the above facts show that the Ivy character is truly much more like Marilyn. Both knew the power of sexuality and what to do with it consequences good or bad. It doesn't always make them happy or secure, but that's just the price of playing the show biz game.

My bafflement leads me to this theory. I think a great number of Smash's fans, especially the young ones, really don't know much about Marilyn the Movie Star, having learned most of what they know about her from what we now celebrate as Marilyn the Icon. I don't mean this as an insult, but I would venture to guess most of them have never seen more than one Marilyn Monroe film, if even that.

tl; dr: Those fans believe Karen was the perfect Marilyn because they really don't know the authentic Marilyn at all.

2. Chemistry between Derek and Karen, and Jack and Katharine... yeah, no. Karen is too young, not so much literally, but in mindset. It almost seems inappropriate and gross. The playing field is so not level. Like when Jack and Karen spent the night together, Karen's fretting about what they are going to tell people and Derek's like, "Tell people about what?"

I think source of the perceived "chemistry" is fangirl crushing on Jack Davenport and seeing Karen as their Smash doppelganger.

[–] writegirl1-2 11 years ago

I think there's a lot of truth in there, also that "pure" and "vulnerable" are one of the easiest things to fake. There are no easy visual cues, it's the absence of its polar opposite, rather than the presence of something actual that you can put your finger on. All someone has to do is look blank-slate and ignorant, and other people will impute their own ideas onto your tabula rasa. Which I guess Marilyn did and brought to the party also, but her whole public persona was packed with easy visual cues that scream "sexpot". There's something to work against for contrast. They were so eager for Karen to bring none of that to the role that she was a simp.

Karen is too young, not so much literally, but in mindset. It almost seems inappropriate and gross. The playing field is so not level. Like when Jack and Karen spent the night together, Karen's fretting about what they are going to tell people and Derek's like, "Tell people about what?"

maybe I missed something in my formative girlhood years (or maybe this is what you are suggesting), I have no idea why Karen would have wanted to tell people anything, or thought it was necessary, unless she thought that telling people what they did all night would have obligated him to be in a relationship with her then forward. Which is particularly lousy in light of the fact that she knows the star-humper baggage he is carrying around and the sexual harassment lawsuit, and is supposed to be his friend, and to care about him, and instead of caring like a friend would, can't wait to turn his attention away from the mystery woman (Ivy) who is all that Derek wanted to talk about and plainly where his real interest lies that night, and onto her.

Because IIRC, Karen changed her damn clothes at her own apartment, nobody would have known from looking at her that she spent the night within a mile of Derek. And frankly, making Karen be the girl who would tattle about a liaison that wasn't even consummated, in order to make herself look less like someone who was dumped publicly by Jimmy and more like someone who could get a Bigger Better Deal boyfriend in a heartbeat, is so anathema to whatever they wanted us to think about Karen, that I almost can't believe someone thought it up as a good idea. And yet, at the same time it's so perfectly passive-aggressively Karen as a move, that you can't help but think Safran wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Karen is totally That Girl. She acts like That Girl, while the writers tell us that we're completely wrong. She's actually Mary Pickford, and Ivy's That Girl, except Ivy's actually a caretaking sweetheart who takes it upon herself to hold together the entire production of Liaisons, etc. They had a great chance for a Marilyn dichotomy which would have been a fantastic structural framework for their whole series, and ran away from it.

I think source of the perceived "chemistry" is fangirl crushing on Jack Davenport and seeing Karen as their Smash doppelganger.

Also takes us back to the tabula rasa/she's so "pure" and "vulnerable"/Bella Swan point of view.

[–] twee-de-bourg 10 years ago

I have no idea why Karen would have wanted to tell people anything, or thought it was necessary,

Because Karen craves attention, particularly the attention of important people. She adored the thought of being Derek's muse, to the extent of bringing it up constantly. That morning, she's self-impressed that Derek wanted her, it's total proof that she's special. The fact that he rejected her means nothing because in her mind she turned him down for her "true love," but still has him as a conquest. Proven by the fact that he was super nice about it (because Ivy), and is escorting her to the theatre.

And from there, she needs to tell people because she needs other people to validate her specialness, to look up to her, to know she's untouchable and unreachable because she is the muse of this guy who she can have any time she wants, fool around with because:

Not only is she the special pet of this impressively great Director, but she's fundamentally not in awe of him as everyone else is. If they fooled around, she must thus see him and thus "own" him as just a guy, just a man, no biggy. And being able to be so cavalier and dismissive of power is itself a status marker.

Granted, the hypocrisy of her hatred for Ivy being in the same place (except for real, because Ivy really did/does know Derek) is humourous, but entirely fitting to Karen's character. And in her defense I doubt Karen even spared a thought to Ivy. Since Ivy was off out of the picture and thus no competition for Karen's self-spotlight.

[–] smgfans 11 years ago

Everything you said about number is completely correct. I only knew of Marilyn as the "Icon". The subway breeze, the adoration, the glamorous image of her as a true star etc. It was even after the first season of Smash that I actually learned that she was sexually abused her entire life, dumped from home to home and was a fragile, unhappy woman. She had a truly tragic upbringing and I think the life she made for herself is something only a strong, powerful person could do. She created a persona, pushed it and became a legend. It's a shame that her struggles seem to be forgotten. She's remembered as a beauty icon and star; as oppose to a survivor who made a legacy of herself.

Having said that, I do not agree with a lot of the choices that Monroe made to get to where she did.

I also disagree that it makes Ivy more like Marilyn than Karen. Neither are nothing like her if you think about it. Ivy's mum put her down a lot; Karen's mum and dad were not entirely supportive of her career choice either. But both were never really anything like Monroe or could relate to her; except for the hunger for fame and notoriety. Ivy had the physique and appearance to pass for her; Karen didn't, but when done up in the wig and dresses, she looked very good. Just a lot thinner than Marilyn ever was.

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] cjanewatch 11 years ago

writegirl and smgfanssmgfans,

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this topic. You are part of what made Smash fun!

I just found some stuff on datalounge that I hadn't read before and I thought it was interesting:

by: Anonymous reply 11 12/13/2013 @ 01:46AM
flag: [ww] [ff] [troll-dar]
I shouldn't really say too much, but it's anonymous here, so what the hell: Spielberg did not like overt theatricality and he did not like Megan. Every note he gave was about how her part should be recast. His notes were often personal and not constructive, and he rallied other producers to join this bandwagon. Other members of the creative team stepped in to defend her and her job, and were punished for doing so: Theresa Rebeck's first fight with producers was over Megan, which set the tone for the first season and her departure, and Marc and Scott were "punished" for defending Megan by having their contributions eventually reduced to just Megan's storylines, which they were not unhappy about...

As feedback rolled in during the first year, and it was mostly negative, Spielberg became convinced that his fixation on Megan was correct and he stepped up his attacks in what I personally believe was a campaign to drive her away from the show. It got to the bullying or hazing level. That's when Bob Greenblatt stepped in and white-knighted Megan, since he was a big fan of hers after seeing her in the LA run of Wicked. There were a couple other little toxicities floating around the production at the time and Bob cleaned house on all of them. He also became Spielberg's public enemy number one, but Bob pulled rank as the head of the network.

Shots were fired when Jamie Cepero was not asked to return as Ellis--Bob Greenblatt made the case that the character was mocked and loathed in just about every write up, and was even the subject of some very negative articles about the show. Focus groups were scathing on that character too. Ellis, however, was Spielberg's favorite character(!). When Bob finally won a consensus that Ellis had to go, Spielberg was defeated and his interest in the show (and his attacks on Megan) waned.

Bob did what he could to right the sinking ship by bringing in a new runner and rehabbing Megan's character into someone audiences could root for. He also thought a major problem with the first season was that Karen Cartwright's successes seemed unearned and hollow (another result of Spielberg's meddling), so he fought to make her arc less preposterous. All good ideas, but too late... by that time we had earned the label of High Camp Trash, and the writing was on the wall.

Throughout all of it Megan was the picture of professionalism and poise. Also really sweet and goofy-fun, in the way of theatre actors.

There's no point to it, but I do wonder how things might have gone if they had recast Megan. It seems like fans were so often divided between Ivy and Karen fandom. Personally, I think a lesser actress playing Ivy would have sucked. Whether or not you're a fan of theatricality, without Megan's energy and the chemistry between Katharine and Megan, this show would have been unbearable, I think.

[–] writegirl1-2 11 years ago

Wow, what a raw deal for Megan! I've always thought she had nerves of steel, can you imagine? Thanks for pulling that over, it's been a while since I looked at Datalounge.

I'd count that as a misstep of colossal proportions on Spielberg's part, for reasons we've touched upon before, which also makes a lot of sense and pulls together a lot of disparate threads of suspicion. Marc Shaiman's free-floating Facebook snark about the show, which only got more pointed as second season moved onwards. The fact that nobody here could understand why as the first season wound on, Megan got more and more praise for her contribution from critics and also the show's only real contribution-based Emmy chatter as the underdog from out of nowhere, only Anjelica and Debra were discussed as candidates, and the pundits made it clear they were really only talking about it in respect of "body of work", rather than for anything the two of them had actually been allowed to do in first season. And yet second season arrives, and instead of capitalizing on the buzz Megan had gotten first season, they underwrote Ivy down to next to nothing... the mind boggles at how Spielberg could bungle this badly. What did he want the character of Ivy FOR, in the first place, if that was to be the outcome??

Because it's nonsensical as a personal vendetta unless he doesn't actually want anyone looking anywhere except at Kat - not Karen but Kat, there can't be any other reason for that level of animosity going to a personal attack, unless it IS personal - and then to have Ivy as less than she is, is wrong on every level of the story. She has to be portrayed as (and by) a major talent if people are going to keep watching the first half of the season, and all of its Bombshell content, when she has the lead of Marilyn, until KatKaren gets crowned/canonized. It's dumb and foolhardy to have a placeholder talent and character anchoring the first half of the story. Apparently, he wanted us spending the whole first season thinking how much better and more awesome it was going to be when Karen has the role, which is wrong wrong wrong by any standards of breaking a story.

And yet, it makes sense too because they were always treading that line first season. More story than I could recount, was structured along the lines of "the job of everybody behind Bombshell is to groom and coddle Karen into her eventual lead winning role. We can't actually SAY it is, but that's what all the chatter is about. OUR Godlike 'director figure' both makes up that Ivy might be "too perfect" for the role, a problem countless other directors would long to have, then spends the rest of the season trying to break and batter down this allegedly TOO perfect portrayal and character to the point where a lesser woman would quit, with a couple sops along the way to how she's 'wonderful in this role', yet to no apparent purpose except lip service, because she still loses the role. Because "they need a star", who is also there as ANOTHER placeholder of three skimpy weeks, until they can put a nobody understudy who's never been on Broadway before into the role (what happened to "needing a star"?). While simultaneously seeding the story by the Spielberg God-figure's multiple on-the-nose tellings of and to Karen, of how magical Karen is, how perfect she is, how like Marilyn she is (when really she's nothing like Marilyn), how "sexy" she is in her prim clothes with her silent demeanor, and how she has "so much of what makes Marilyn Marilyn in her." Because it was always going to be Karen, and then for the rest of the season after we anoint Karen, we'll portray Ivy as our sulky ruiner." I always thought he had a story sense, I'm actually embarrassed on his behalf now.

Besides, I thought "Spielberg doesn't know you're hate-watching"? It's pretty impressive that he actually had us believing that people had shielded him from negative commentary about the show because he's so powerful. This? I think they call it "cutting off your nose to spite your face". "Let Megan Hilty be your star", indeed.

[–] locusnola 11 years ago

Yikes. Spielberg drank the McPhoolAid by the gallon, didn't he? Certainly, he looks as foolish (not to say plain nuts) as he does nasty. I for one believe this as gospel.

And yet, Megan Hilty was the first actor cast! Spielberg was so eager to have her she was signed without a screen test when another show wanted her too. So they definitely wanted a good Ivy for something - at least once upon a time!

Then Spielberg hooks Katharine McPhee up as Karen, and suddenly he doesn't like "overt theatricality?" One wonders what the heck made him want to do a show about Broadway, if that were the case?? I mean, really, WTF???!!!

All things point to a most serious inPhatuation. If he is over it, good for him - but I was never going to forgive him for smashing "Smash" to bits, and this is utterly beyond anything.

What a trouper Hilty must be. Not surprising. Glad to know there appear to have been a few champions beyond Greenblatt & Rebeck, Shaiman & Wittman. I am disgusted with Spielberg. I will do my best to avoid his oevre in the future.

Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] writegirl1-2 11 years ago

I believe it too, because nothing makes sense in connection with this other than something or someone acting illogically. Nobody as yet has said word one about Megan being less than delightful to work with. If you're not a problem on-set why else would they want to get rid of you?

I too then wonder what the several-hour initial pitch session, with Spielberg talking to Shaiman and Wittman (? I believe so) about his love of Broadway, then consisted of. Much like the assumption I made about Kat's extracurriculars secretly fitting her to take this role in the intervening years, it now seems possible that Spielberg, rather than being a secret patron of the arts, angel backer of extant shows, etc.; meant more that he liked the IDEA of Broadway as a dramatic setting. He wanted pallid "filmed Broadway". He grabbed Megan because he was afraid "it" (whatever "it" was in his mind at the time), would be an impossible mission to fill otherwise.

Clearly either his yes-men only brought Spielberg the press and reactions they knew he wanted, or he disregarded anything that didn't fit with what he wanted to hear. There's been plenty of allusions that he picked and chose what he wanted, in a straight line from the Datalounge article. He now knows about some of the negative reaction.. but not that Ellis was a lightning rod? Someone even made that answer to a desperate questioner on Datalounge, dancing around the issue and answer of why Megan/Ivy was popular, and nobody listened, and then we got less. "There were other considerations", or similar. Well, now we know what they were! The boss man had handed down an edict that working conditions should be as unpleasant for Megan as possible in an attempt to force her to quit, clearly, there's no other reason why you'd punish someone you're stuck with due to a contract, except for sadism. (Plus, he was probably cheesed-off to have the network head unquestionably in her corner.) It's even eminently possible that Megan is what Theresa Rebeck meant when she answered someone's in-person question at the talk I attended, with "I didn't let anyone yell at the actors", unless she meant some rogue contentious episode director who threw fits.

Because yeah, Megan's/Ivy "responsible for the negative first-season feedback". He can't have it both ways. Either they know nothing about how the fans feel, or they know everything. I don't recall any folks twinning criticism of hating an overtheatrical singing style (which again, yeah, really belongs in a show "about Broadway"), with any criticism that Megan was overacting. Those posters complaining in that direction, rarely or never said any words about people's acting talent, to the point where I doubt they even considered it because they don't have any interest in acting as an art. Critics, forget about it. Maybe one or two off of the pilot, but they didn't continue to beat the drum. I always knew Greenblatt was smart, though. Although anybody without tunnel vision would clearly figure that Karen's victories were unearned, you just have to have eyes. Let alone the director/producer/showrunner we were told "watches all the dailies". The creator "watching all the dailies", who has 30 (40?) years' experience doing same, knows how to envision them as a whole, to imply he still sees them as disparate pieces would be ridiculous.

[–] locusnola 11 years ago

I believe it too, because nothing makes sense in connection with this other than something or someone acting illogically.

Oh, certainly. But, we already knew that, didn't we? "Smash" was marked by a perversity of wrongheadedness at a level I've never seen before. I recall postulating that the writers threw their meds into a bowl at the start of each workday, downed a random handful each, and, when the effects made themselves felt, got to work. Of course, I pity the poor writers, with all my heart, given what we know . . .

assumption I made about Kat's extracurriculars secretly fitting her to take this role in the intervening years

A perfect example. Why on earth WOULDN'T any actress, or wannabe, with the prospect of a starring role in a Steven Spielberg-produced series about Broadway, work her little keister off at acting lessons to be ready for it?

it now seems possible that Spielberg, rather than being a secret patron of the arts, angel backer of extant shows, etc.; meant more that he liked the IDEA of Broadway as a dramatic setting. He wanted pallid "filmed Broadway".

Maybe so, but Megan wasn't an anomaly - the cast was full of Broadway actors, all contracted subsequent to Megan's signing. My own suspicion is that Spielberg's dislike of "overt theatricality" was a peg he created on which to hang his animus for Megan after it became clear she was outshining his darling by orders of magnitude. Perhaps Spielberg was never, in the end, going to like any competent Ivy, given his own bias toward McPhee. And I don't buy that Spielberg is so stupid and/or undiscerning that he couldn't see how good Megan was. He just didn't want her to be.\\Which brings us to:

Clearly either his yes-men only brought Spielberg the press and reactions they knew he wanted, or he disregarded anything that didn't fit with what he wanted to hear.

Disclaimer: I don't know much first-hand about behind-the-scenes-Hollywood, but I have never bought into Spielberg's claim that he didn't know what the critical reactions were, and in much more detail than has been yet admitted. Especially given the fights we now know took place - does anyone really believe Greenblatt wouldn't have said, "Steve, get real! Megan Hilty is the main cred we've got with the critics! She's got a much bigger fanbase than we expected, with just the audience we were aiming for! What's with this thing for a no-talent like McPhee?"

So, the latter of your postulated options, I think. He knew. He knew Ellis was loathed and ridiculed. He knew Karen ditto. He didn't care. He didn't care, ultimately, if the show succeeded, either commercially or artistically - he only cared about seeing his McDream realized. Whatever rationalizations he may have fed himself, at whatever point.

I do buy that Spielberg lost interest. Too bad it wasn't before the show got off the ground - Greenblatt could have got it done much better, given his head, I think.

Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

I'll drag this down into the gutter. I think there was hanky-panky between Spielberg & McPhee. After that, his hands were tied. We know (now) she'll happily screw a married director and is it any coincidence that he happens to have a potential star vehicle for her in the works? As for Spielberg, his history in that regard is known.

[–] locusnola 11 years ago

One does wonder, particularly given both the recent revelations and the suggestions that McPhee has a history of banging married men to get ahead, with her husband having been among them.

Still, if that were indeed the case, Spielberg became very thoroughly disenchanted quite rapidly. Or might she have dumped him? It would explain why he won't discuss her.

All pure speculation, of course, but there is quite a bit of smoke, as you note . . .

Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

IF she did the nasty with Spielberg, that would make a total of three married producers/directors (with potential star vehicles for her) in her history. That we know of.

She cultivated the sweet, innocent, highly moral & religious image - but she let it slip after the Morris thing went public with her digs at the wife/mother whose family she had just demolished, and we got a glimpse her ice-cold black heart.

Spielberg (I'll bet) got more than a glimpse of it, long ago. No wonder he was "disenchanted." I'll speculate further that he thanks all the gods every day that he dodged a bullet (which Morris didn't) even if he had to sacrifice his beloved Smash.

[–] smgfans 11 years ago

that would make a total of three married producers/directors (with potential star vehicles for her) in her history. That we know of.

She most likely didn't even meet Michael Morris till he was hired to direct a couple of episodes of Smash. Her affair with him would have been nothing to do with advancing her career. So I wouldn't count him. Spielberg, I doubt it. McPhee said she put herself on tape, screen tested for the network and got the green light a few days later. And Spielberg was barely on the set of Smash. I know she met with him after her American Idol days and Smash never came to fruition until years later, but I doubt she'd have an affair with him and him with her. Who is the third? Her husband?

I'll speculate further that he thanks all the gods every day that he dodged a bullet (which Morris didn't) even if he had to sacrifice his beloved Smash.

How does that work? If she slept with him to get a part, you'd think that the show being cancelled would only anger her and she'd go and leak the information.

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

Her affair with [Morris] would have been nothing to do with advancing her career.

Morris was involved with the project Songbyrd - "A comedy centered around a pop-music songwriter and her staff."

He was fired after his relationship with McPhee was exposed.

[–] smgfans 11 years ago

Oh, thanks for that information. He was fired because of his personal life? Audience members (especially for tv) don't really know much about the people who direct each episode. Why would they care enough to fire him over that? I can understand not giving Katharine the role if people would speculate that's the only reason she got it, but why fire Morris?

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

It's a good question! Songbyrd also had a couple of Smash executive producers on board (as executive producers), so that might have had something to do with it.

[–] tinysnapdragon123 11 years ago

He was fired because he mixed his personal and professional life and no one wants that crap going on in their production if they can avoid it.

[–] writegirl1-2 11 years ago

Yeah, I'm not precisely convinced but not unconvinced - one of those situations where if we ever find out about any extramarital affairs of Spielberg's (after his first marriage, of course), then I think all bets are off, but I don't think he'd start a cheating career with Kat. If that makes sense. For my own part, I just heard it was affairs with three married men not necessarily three married famous men in her past, and not sure if that counts Nick, but it wasn't counting Morris, he was extra. IIRC. ;)

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

WOW.

Now I really reeeeally want some reporter interviewing Spielberg to bring up (without warning) the whole "McPhee was HANDPICKED BY SPIELBERG HIMSELF!!1!" thing we've heard so endlessly from McPhans. Just to see the look on his face.

Except, of course, we never would. He's clamped down so hard on the whole subject. He won't discuss her, won't even speak her name, and I'm certain any reporter treading on that ground would be dismissed (physically).

[–] manu5689 11 years ago

cjane, if you're saying is true then what little respect I had for Spielberg is completely gone. Wow.

"It's hard for me to watch American Idol because I have perfect pitch."
-Jenna, 30 Rock

[–] cjanewatch 11 years ago

I still hold a grudge against him for putting Kate Capshaw in the second Indiana Jones movie. She ruined it for me. It should have been Marion all the way.

I think for some people, *beep* around really doesn't mean all that much. It's like it's just the totally normal thing to do.

Dug around a bit and "heard" that Mcphee and Morris "knew" each other before Smash. Also heard mention she may have done Will Chase (without Messing's knowledge) before the show started filming.

[–] Wink23 11 years ago

Dug around a bit and "heard" that Mcphee and Morris "knew" each other before Smash. Also heard mention she may have done Will Chase (without Messing's knowledge) before the show started filming.

Whoa. Not that I would doubt it in the slightest, given what facts we have it certainly sounds true-to-form, but where are you hearing this??