Letting the father drive down Main (Locust) St was great but showing us the town's characters again was not only unnecessary but a mixed msg. (unless they were there only in the father's imagination, though the mark from the punch says "No" to that)
shareWhat do you think the mixed message was? I thought it was important that the major figures from the town that Woody interacted with earlier in the movie saw him driving his new truck. Otherwise why let him have that moment?
Reality is the new fiction they say, truth is truer these days, truth is man-madeshare
I thought it was important that the major figures from the town that Woody interacted with earlier in the movie saw him driving his new truck.
Otherwise why let him have that moment?
Jesus H Christ, what is it with this website? I sometimes think it provides a pretty compelling case as to why the internet should just be switched off so everyone can go back to just talking to each other. I'm a fairly laid-back, good-humoured guy. I come here to talk civilly, even friendlily about movies. I don't come here to be patronised by strangers. When you're talking about movies with friends and they say something you disagree with do you start yelling "Wrong! Wrong!" at them like Sheldon forking Cooper telling them they've got the name of Star Trek season 3 episode 7 wrong? I think not because in real life you're probably a reasonable person who doesn't believe that his subjective opinion about a movie represents some kind of universal, irreproachable truth.
I'll tell you why I "really think that way" and I'm going to attempt to do so in the spirit of my above manifesto for treating people with just a little bit of civility and respect, despite your confrontational and completely unnecessary attitude.
The message of this film, to me, is not that it is not important what others think of you in life. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that was a rather glib simplification of a much more meaningful subtext. In my opinion this is a film that tries to show how ordinary lives are much bigger and more complex than they seem on the surface. At the beginning Woody seems like a barely with it, broken down old alcoholic, and that's the way people treat him, as a nonentity, someone barely worth bothering with whose whole life amounts to virtually nothing. During the course of the film we, the audience, through his son David and his encounters with people from Woody's past, learn that this is not the case, that Woody has led a life full of incident and emotion. He's even something of a celebrity in his home town where many people still remember him years after he has moved away. He is a more important figure with a more important life than even his son had ever realised. His old partner, Stacy Keach's character, does Woody the same disservice as everyone else. He believes Woody is just a doddering old man who he thinks he can exploit some money out of. When he finds out Woody's prize is the result of a piece of junk mail designed to pressure him into taking out magazine subscriptions it seems that his opinion of Woody is confirmed, and when he realises there's no money to be had he settles for publicly ridiculing and mocking Woody in front of everyone in the local bar.
The reason the ending is important and makes sense to me is that it continues the theme of showing how a person's inner life, the things beneath the surface, are deeper than they might appear. When Keach sees Woody driving that truck through town he is forced to eat his words from the bar the night before. There is more to Woody than he thought. His attitude of sneering and mocking is laid bare before him and the film shows us that it is important to be kind and generous in our assessment of others. My opinion is that that is why the film has Woody and David return to the town in the first place, to push through this point and to use Keach's character as an example of how a negative and unkind outlook towards people can come back and bite you in the ass. And it's a great moment. When we see Woody's ex, the kindly woman who ran the local paper, she is happy for him. She hasn't acted like a bitch towards him so she has no comeuppance to be had. She just smiles and waves and wishes him well and that's a nice moment too because it is a demonstration of how positivity and respect is its own reward. Woody goes from humiliation to heroism in that final sequence, and that, for me, is the whole point of the movie. Do no write someone off, because you don't know what is going on with them, there may be something grander to a person than is obvious from looking at them. One of the central themes here is that people deserve more than judgment and scorn, life is bigger than that, and without that final sequence this film would not have its concise and ultimately uplifting denouement.
Reality is the new fiction they say, truth is truer these days, truth is man-madeshare
I appreciate your reaction and your long reply, and I'm sorry if my prev post offended you. Your new post is conceptually true in many ways, but the bottom line is: you're talking about being SEEN in a TRUCK. You may want to run away from your first comment. You may want to spin it, but that is it, and that is a pet peeve of mine. That is why I did and will push back on that view to any degree necessary.
I come here to talk civilly, even friendlily about movies.
I don't come here to be patronised by strangers. … you're probably a reasonable person who doesn't believe that his subjective opinion about a movie represents some kind of universal, irreproachable truth.
The message of this film, to me, is not that it is not important what others think of you in life.
this is a film that tries to show how ordinary lives are much bigger and more complex than they seem on the surface.
The reason the ending is important and makes sense to me is that it continues the theme of showing how a person's inner life, the things beneath the surface, are deeper than they might appear.
When Keach sees Woody driving that truck through town he is forced to eat his words from the bar the night before. His attitude of sneering and mocking is laid bare before him
the film shows us that it is important to be kind and generous in our assessment of others and to recognise that there is more to their lives than it might seem from the outside
that is why the film has Woody and David return to the town in the first place to push through this point
use Keach's character as an example of how a negative and unkind outlook towards people can come back and bite you
it's a great moment
Woody's ex, the kindly woman who ran the local paper, she is happy for him.
She just smiles and waves
Woody goes from humiliation to heroism in that final sequence
there may be something grander to a person than is obvious from looking at them
people deserve more than judgment and scorn
without that final sequence this film would not have its concise and moving denouement.
what is it with this website?
Apology accepted, and to some degree sorry about the rant, but maybe it needed to be said. And you may not feel like you were patronising me, but that's how it felt from this end. "Wrong... Hint hint"... it's patronising, it's like you're saying "I know what you don't know, let's see if you can figure out what that is"
Anyway, we may have to agree to differ on this matter (which is fine) but I think you are misunderstanding me to some extent here. It is not Woody's acquisition of a material good that I like about the ending, nor is it that Ed Pegram sees Woody's new truck and gets comeuppance through the fact that Woody now has a new truck. The truck is just the symbol that represents the side of Woody that Ed didn't previously see, the truck is the symbol that Ed has underestimated Woody, devalued him and his existence, which as I've said, is exactly what it's tempting to do when we first meet Woody and exactly what the film is saying we shouldn't do. Woody had told everyone the first thing he was going to do with his winnings was buy a new truck. That was common knowledge. When Ed finds out there is no money and he mocks Woody in front of everyone he reduces him to a laughing stock. When he finally sees Woody in the truck at the end he is dumbfounded because this apparently doddering, senile old fool obviously had more going for him than Pegram thought. Did he in fact win the money? It makes Pegram into the fool for mocking Woody.
Without that moment, Pegram comes out of the movie unscathed, even victorious (from his point of view) because he got his laugh at Woody's expense. It's not that Woody actually gets a truck that reverses this (in fact, if Pegram knew that David had just bought him the truck the effect would be lost) it's that having laughed Woody out of town he know finds that the joke is on him. You may disagree, that is your perfect right, but I loved the sequence and I don't think the film would be the same without it. Payne's films normally carry a moral message and this film would be lacking slightly in that department if Pegram were not somehow punished for his earlier treatment of Woody. His punishment is having the rug pulled from beneath his feet. It's not about the truck, it's about Pegram being made to see that he was wrong.
(About the ex, maybe I was mistaken, I'll take your word for it as I don't have a copy of the movie to check, but I was sure there was some indication that she was pleased to see Woody driving his truck and she didn't just stare at him dumbfounded as Pegram did)
Reality is the new fiction they say, truth is truer these days, truth is man-madeshare
You are right and the person you are arguing with is way off base. My only quibble with what you are saying is that you put it as "Pegram being made to see that he was wrong", whereas I'd change that slightly and say "Pegram being made to think that he was wrong", since of course we know he actually was right.
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I was just about to respond with a similar post when I read yours. You took the words right out of my mouth.
First off, the other guy, Mr. "Wrong-wrong/Hint-hint" is not only delusional, rude and patronising, but also way off the mark about the meaning of what he sees on screen. He forgets (or chooses to forget, or maybe, and more likely, just doesn't get) that WE, the audience, KNOW that the Stacey Keach character was right, that the truck wasn't even Dern's, and that the money was never won. The joke's on him as HE doesn't know, and is now tricked into believing that his old friend, whom he mocked a minute ago, is now a millionaire.
So yes, perfect ending, despite what 'Mr. Wrong-Wrong/Hint-hint' says. If he was right, and the only way of living was not giving a damn about the opinions of others, than a-holes would have to stay a-holes their entire lives, never learning what they do wrong nor having a chance to change their ways. That's why I'm afraid he'll stay a patronizing dick until his last day. Good for him, sucks for everyone else.
First, I did not patronize you.
Second, I didn't imply that my subjective opinion about the movie is anything but a subjective opinion.
It is not just my opinion that "Life is not about what other people think of you." That is true and has been true for millenia. Nearly all of the most highly-respected people of the last 2000 years would agree with me. And most of the others were laughed at when they were not around when they were alive, and now that they are dead, they are remembered well only by other shallow people.
Obviously having the town come out to see him was a bit of a Hollywood wish-fulfillment, but that the son bought his father a new truck to show he had come to appreciate what he went through, doesn't strike me as unrealistic.
shareOK, after all that, I'm going to have to spell it out for you. The moving final sequence was that his SON thinks enough of him to buy him a new(ish) truck. That is it. It has nothing to do with being SEEN by other people.
this is a film that tries to show how ordinary lives are much bigger and more complex than they seem on the surface.
[deleted]
Yes, that was exactly what was subtly but indelibly portrayed on her face. Not the same expression as Pernsley, as the OP would have us believe.
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Daily single-tweet movie reviews: https://twitter.com/SlackerInc
Jesus H Christ, what is it with this website? I sometimes think it provides a pretty compelling case as to why the internet should just be switched off so everyone can go back to just talking to each other. I'm a fairly laid-back, good-humoured guy. I come here to talk civilly, even friendlily about movies. I don't come here to be patronised by strangers. When you're talking about movies with friends and they say something you disagree with do you start yelling "Wrong! Wrong!" at them like Sheldon forking Cooper telling them they've got the name of Star Trek season 3 episode 7 wrong? I think not because in real life you're probably a reasonable person who doesn't believe that his subjective opinion about a movie represents some kind of universal, irreproachable truth.
[deleted]
Yes. She was a very kind person, dialing in on what the son David was telling her and immediately offering to write up Woody and Kate's visit. Accepting the way Woody was ("it starts early around here, and there really isn't much else to do.") and that Kate "let him round the bases." She was actually looking for a commitment from Woody, and he wasn't cluing in. Just like David and his g/f, who wanted to "get married, break up, do something." David's cluelessness was just like his father's, "are we still having sex?" Just floating through life, working his job as a stereo salesman, watching TV in his little apartment, aimless.
I did wonder what a difference a wonderful woman like Peg Nagy might have made in Woody's life. And Woody got pretty touchy when David brought her up in the first place. Interesting. I took it as a metaphor for regrets of the road not taken, the relationships squandered where the value wasn't recognized until it was much too late. Everybody has those, or will if you live long enough.
YOU think that, and I think that.
But most people do not.
And when it comes to small towns, what other people think of you is VERY important to most people.
having Woody drive down the street in his new truck was their victory, letting everyone who had mocked him eat their words. Even if it was more or less based on an implied lie
everyone who had mocked him eat their words
Sometimes you have to look outside your own values and consider those of the characters.
"Also shown was the token "nice person" in the town, and to make it all much worse, the nice old lady had basically the same expression on her face as did the villain."
I've just watched the film and I'm not sure about that. Keach's open-mouthed stare, head tilted slightly to one side, is indexical of disbelief. Angela McEwan's expression is a little harder to read. She's close-mouthed, stoic. I interpreted it as a look of pride (towards the end of the shot, there's a movement in her mouth and eyes that suggests pride, but it's quite subtle and you could interpet it differently - a sense of longing, perhaps).
Here's the grab of Stacy Keach: http://filmgrab.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/62.jpg
Here's the grab of Angela McEwan: http://filmgrab.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/63.jpg
I interpreted the moment when David bought his father the truck not as an attempt to make the people in Hawthorne 'eat their words' but simply as an attempt to connect with his parent. His father believed he'd won the million dollars but all he wanted was a truck and a new compressor, not to live like a king. As the film progresses, David learns more about his father, from whom it seems at the start of the film he is subtly alienated, and at the end of the picture David (who is now more sympathetic to his father) has the means to give his father what he really wanted - which, arguably, is what he should have done in the first place. The ride back through Hawthorne, for me, wasn't about proving anyone wrong or providing an ostentatious display of wealth, but was a farewell to the place - I think it's safe to assume Woody won't return there.
But I agree that you don't need the other characters present in the scene to do that: a drive past Woody's childhood home would have been more effective in this, I think. (Though the presence of Peg at the end suggests a path for Woody's life that he did not take.)
'What does it matter what you say about people?'
Touch of Evil (Orson Welles, 1958).
You're really not sure about it.
Yes, the old lady had basically the same expression on her face as did the villain. Yes, but I guess you think using an obscure word like "indexical" gives your mistake more gravitas. Gong! Try again.
And here we have a mystifying thing about so many people here. You're pretending to "debate" something I did not say.
I interpreted the moment when David bought his father the truck not as an attempt to make the people in Hawthorne 'eat their words' but simply as an attempt to connect with his parent.
David (who is now more sympathetic to his father) has the means to give his father what he really wanted - which, arguably, is what he should have done in the first place.
The ride back through Hawthorne, for me, wasn't about proving anyone wrong or providing an ostentatious display of wealth, but was a farewell to the place
But I agree that you don't need the other characters present in the scene to do that
I'm not sure what part of the world you're from, but I don't think the word 'indexical' is obscure at all.
I still don't think those two expressions are one and the same. We disagree about that. Which is fine. I agree that the film could have ended with the purchasing of the truck: the ride back through the town isn't necessary. That's fine too.
But what I don't appreciate is a snarky condescending tone, whether it is ironic or not, when I was simply participating in a discussion, which after all is what a message board is for. That's just rude.
I think you've misread those two expressions at the end of the film and conflated them, but I agree that the ride back through Hawthorne is redundant. The film doesn’t need that moment, and in fact it takes away from the father-son dynamic, which I thought was the 'meat' of the film. Or, like I said earlier, a drive past Woody's childhood home would have arguably been even more poignant, reinforcing the film’s focus on family.
'What does it matter what you say about people?'
Touch of Evil (Orson Welles, 1958).
There's a point in the film where Woody says to his son (twice mind you) "Did you see the look on their faces?" The ending brought that look back to their faces for Woody to witness one more time. Also, I think the newspaper lady is literally the "mouthpiece" of the town and will get an article out with the details.
Woody went from laughingstock to "Prize Winner" in the last 2 minutes of the movie--I agree will probably never be back but he left "something" for his kids when they do.
"we'll pack up all our junk and fly so far away..."
I interpreted it as a look of pride (towards the end of the shot, there's a movement in her mouth and eyes that suggests pride, but it's quite subtle and you could interpet it differently - a sense of longing, perhaps).
The ride back through Hawthorne, for me, wasn't about proving anyone wrong or providing an ostentatious display of wealth, but was a farewell to the place - I think it's safe to assume Woody won't return there.
But I agree that you don't need the other characters present in the scene to do that: a drive past Woody's childhood home would have been more effective in this, I think.
the nice old lady had basically the same expression on her face as did the villain
Bringbackberniew, the way you come across makes me want to punch you in the face. Are you like that in real life as well? I really hope not, for your own sake and even more for the sake of the people around you.
Furthermore, everything you say screams you're clueless about this film. It is actually painful to read.
Hear, hear.
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What in the world was wrong with the punch? The codger deserved a lot worse. If anything, Will Forte should have offered him a few free boots to the ribs while he was down just to make an example of him.
The bitter thinkers buy their tickets to go find God like a piggy in a fair
The OP never explained that part, but a less abrasive person could probably make a case against that punch on one or both of two premises:
(1) It's a cliched moment.
(2) It's a little bit questionable to have a young man punching such an old guy, even if the latter is a huge jerk.
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yeah, the punch was silly.
🎍Season's greetings!🎅🌲
I fully agree, the ending kind of spoiled a good movie; it actually made it more sad than if they just simply would have drove home. Could that have been the intention? Nah, hardly. Another thing; how is it in us-movies you can always hit people in the face without medical or legal consequences?
shareI liked the punch.
Forte's punch(after a long decision to deliver it) comes just after Keach has thoroughly humiliated Dern(who, as usual in this great performance, manages to project at once the humanity to feel humiliated and an inability to truly understand what is happening) and we were hoping that maybe DERN would throw the punch.
But Dern is too old, frail, and ineffectual to deliver the pain. His son does it and it works.
The Keach character is the epitome of small town evil. The mother knew it when they were all younger. We watch him do a series of evil things TO Forte: (1) Demand money in the rest room scene; (2) Threaten not only a lawyer, but possible violence, in the rest room scene; (3) rat out Dern to Forte for a young affair that might have led to Forte "not being born at all" if the parents had broken up; (4) conspired with the two big oaf cousins to let them attack Forte and Dern for the letter; (5) ridicule and humiliate Dern over the worthless letter in front of other townies.
Keatch deserved all the full weight of that punch...if anything it was retribution for sending the two oafs to beat up Forte and Dern.
And it showed Forte's own fortitude and character. He did something good for his old man who never quite cared about him.