MovieChat Forums > Camelot (2011) Discussion > They just had to do it...

They just had to do it...


Of course the women won't stay inside and let the men be men. No, they need to be trained and ready to fight! Yes! And I'm sure you'll find a website that lists some obscure incident of a woman fighting as proof that it's realistic. Like the possibility that the Romans brought some black slaves to Britain who never married outside their race and remained dark for centuries and centuries.

Morgan isn't enough of a strong female character, all of them have to throw down and be Amazons'.

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wow, sexist much?

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Not really sexist.. more realistic. Woman dont belong on the battlefield, period. Call me what you want for saying that but fighting requires power as well as cunning.. Woman may be smart if not smarter than most men but most of them lack the raw power that men possess..Of course today it is different considering hand to hand combat is rare in todays world..

Although there may have been some successful woman fighters throughout history it is exceptionally rare considering how most woman were raised. Also most "warrior woman" were tribal woman or "barbarians" who were impressive in size as well as skill...

I dont doubt a woman warrior one bit if she is indeed capable on doing damage, I however do doubt a woman warrior who is 100 pounds and never lifted a sword before, that I find unrealistic and annoying. Woman archers are another thing, If they can draw back the bow then fine that is 100x more realistic than hand to hand fighting, considering most woman fighting in hand to hand combat with a man would get demolished.

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Well, they did imply that the Women would be used as archers.

Also, you have to understand that sometimes it's more dangerous to stay inside than fighting outside. That is, when defeat could bring them stuff that are worse than death. During Israel's war of independence Women took an active role in the IDF, even though Israel was just as sexist as the USA back then.

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She's not going to be doing any all out battles with heavily armed troops. But even Arya has had training with one of the finest swordsmen of the time, and a weapon designed specifically for her.

I doubt these dainty women on Camelot could even draw a bow or swing a broadsword without falling over. They spend their waking hours coloring their hair and applying thirty layers of makeup.

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you need to do a little research if you did you would find out that sword fighting rarely requires power it requires intelligence and skill swords were not heavy like movies make them out to be the heaviest sword is only 10lbs at the most. the nature of a sword is that once it starts to swing it can generate alot of force even by the weakest person.
most people assume raw power is required to use a sword but that is not true
and if you did you research you would find out that woman tend to be better in martial arts and hand to hand combat then men.
and physics also dictate that an object gets heavier as it increases in speed therefor a 7lbs sword will hit with tremendous power when traveling at 90miles per hour sometimes faster then that
many societies have had the mentality that woman can not fight and some have disagreed the societies that have disagreed had woman in there military ranks and those woman were just as sucessfull as men.
and look at joan of ark she was a general and faught in many battles against many men

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oh and another thing it is much harder to pull an actual battle bow back then it is to pick up a sword

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You belong to the kind of people who think archers looked like the skinny-elf type with pointed ears, do you? Actually archers probably looked more like lumberjacks. Because to draw a medieval English longbow you need strength, and a lot of it. Archaeological findings even showed skeletons of archers with malformed shoulder bones because of the extreme forces which acted on the joints when drawing a 80+ lbs bow.

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I totally agree with OP, women are useless fighters and they will forever be that way.

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It's not fear of females, just historically false to have the women throw off their dresses and swinging swords and fighting like men in this show. Look to the comments about Cate Blanchett in Robin Hood.

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Yet, this story of Arthur is portrayed diffrently time and time again and the women in the stories are portrayed diffrently, depending on what background they spinn on the females. No one threw their dresses off to put on pants, they simply used the bow.. no reason why anyone wouldnt be efficient with a bow. As for Robin Hood, they chose to portray Marion diffrently, not a mere damsel but the real head of the house at the end of the day. Lone woman with "no husband", frail father and a strong will, someone who even worked the fields.. therefor would exhibit some pshysical strength. Honestly depending on how they portray females backgrounds, that dictates more how selfsufficien that woman may have been.. not the fact that she wears a skirt, thats preposterous. How was your life back then if your husband was lost at war, the head of the house was a frail old man and you had to run the houehold and perform most of the tasks yourself? is it even feasible to portray such a woman as a feebleminded baby machine? no ofc not, dont be rediculous.

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I think the issue being taken isn't one of whether women are / would be capable or that they shouldn't but in the common popular way they are moving to sanitize history (and not just with women) at the expense of historical accuracy, even in a partial fantasy setting.

Sure, having strong independent female roles is popular (some would even argue necessary and forced) and in settings like Game of Thrones it is not seen as much of an issue because the setting (Westros), history, and events are 100% fictional and 100% fantasy. As much fantasy as the Legend of Arthur is, it, and it's history, is rooted in a real place in a real time.

I would take issue with a story that portrayed 18th and 19th century America where slaves existed but it seemed whites and blacks generally got along, no one used the common expletive that was recently sanitized from some editions of Huckleberry Finn (like white people feel "Slave Jim" is some kind of upgrade from the alternative), and blacks had decent homes on the master's land with good healthy eating each night instead of too many bodies living in a raggedy shack eating the same slop out of the pig trough as the animals.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they be portrayed as feeble baby machines, just something a little more accurate to the times in a series that is seemingly attempting to blend some fantastical elements with historical period settings. Only in the modern world where people have easily offended sensibilities and frequently cry out misogyny at every suggestion or complaint would this even be an issue.

Because I have no issue with strong female characters, my issue is purely mechanical: If you are going to have women gloriously stand up and defend to appease the feminist crowd or be more politically correct so the National Organization for Women doesn't rant and rave over something that exists only in their minds, then at least don't have the women using bows in dresses that have wide hanging tapered sleeves that will only serve to get in the way of and snag the bow string when shot and make any shot they'd attempt completely worthless.

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+1 on all counts, very well said.
Regarding the women's dress: I'll add that going full throttle the other way around, i.e having them wear a tiny leather bikini (as in King Arthur) might not be a good idea either... neither for historical accuracy nor for feminism. ^^

"Occasionnally I'm callous and strange."

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Regarding the women's dress: I'll add that going full throttle the other way around, i.e having them wear a tiny leather bikini (as in King Arthur) might not be a good idea either... neither for historical accuracy nor for feminism.
No. While it would be aesthetically pleasing for some, it definitely wouldn't.

I would have preferred, should they have kept them in the dress they had, that they had had the women tear their bow sleeve off completely because any archer would tell you that trying to use a bow with that hanging mess of fabric in the way would have been ridiculous, especially for someone inexperienced who would more often than not tend to strike their arm with the string.

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I smell fear of strong females, this world was once had widespread matriarchy

Err, no it didn't, it never had. There is no historical evidence for that whatsoever. There may be some primitive jungle tribes where women are treated as equals, but there was never any major civilization in the history of the world where women were considered superior.

And multitasking, as well as ''tactical thinking'', is something both genders can potentially do well - it depends on the individual, even if women do have a small natural advantage.

I'm all for equality, and the woman fighting in Camelot doesn't bother me in the least, but let's stick to the facts here. Making things up doesn't help your case.

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Oh, Lord

Anyone who thinks that Camelot is in any way, shape or form "accurate" history is an idiot. Case in point:

Women wore skirts back then. Guess what? So did men. Trousers were considered barbaric and not worn by anyone.

99% of medieval women never fought. But 99% of medieval men never fought, either, and those 99% of men would have been just as useless in battle as any non-fighting woman. This was one of the reasons why chivalry eventually came to include not harming noncombatants, period (not just women). It was because a mounted knight fighting against anyone on the ground who lacked military training was like using artillery to shoot prairie dogs. A young, spry peasant girl would have had a far better chance in battle than a fat, middle-aged Cluniac monk, for example. Medieval swords weren't nearly as heavy as movies make them look. A woman who worked all day on housework and in the fields wouldn't have had a lot of problem handling one.

Women did fight. Most medieval conflicts were either skirmishes or sieges of varying lengths. In sieges, everyone in town, including women and children, was expected to pitch in. Women, in particular, were expected to patrol the walls and pour burning pitch or oil, or drop stones onto the besiegers. It was a very dangerous job because the besiegers' archers (if they had any) would try to pick off anyone on the walls. But it was also very effective. For example, Simon de Montfort, leader of the northern French forces during the Albigensian Crusade, was killed by a woman dropping a large rock on his head from the wall of a city he was besieging.

Medieval women both ruled and led armies. Numerous examples exist of medieval women leading armies successfully into battle and ruling as legitimate queens, empresses, duchesses, countesses, etc. In fact, the show demonstrates an extremely poor knowledge of medieval history in giving us the idea that the grown eldest daughter of the King could be legally usurped by a male teenage bastard with no political base, who had been raised by "peasants". It's right up there with that Prima Nocte bs they were trying to push tonight. In fact, legitimacy almost always trumped gender, especially when all Merlin really "proved" with his story of Arthur's birth was that the King's second wife, Igraine, was an adulterous whore. He couldn't actually prove that Arthur wasn't the son of Igraine's first husband and therefore, not royal blood at all. Not to mention that the whole story threw into question the legitimacy of Uther's marriage to Igraine.

There were far more instances of legitimate daughters ruling and even leading armies into battle than there were of bastard sons of questionable parentage usurping a legitimate heir. It was not considered an especially great problem for the heir to be a woman. Most medieval military leaders were elected in some fashion. The heiress would marry a man with military skill and a power base (as Morgan tried to do with Lot) and everyone was satisfied. It *was* a problem if a rival heir couldn't prove his legitimacy (let alone primogeniture. Morgan is older).

Incidentally, the black-and-white ideas about all "history" being male-dominated stem mostly from the 19th century and reflect Victorian cultural values far more than those of the medieval or any other period.

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the show demonstrates an extremely poor knowledge of medieval history in giving us the idea that the grown eldest daughter of the King could be legally usurped by a male teenage bastard with no political base, who had been raised by "peasants".
Hmmm. Of course, in the actual legends Morgan le Fay is the Duke of Cornwall's daughter, not Uther's.

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You're concerned about this show being realistic? Do you Merlin's use of CGI magic realistic or historically accurate enough? This show isn't based on fact.

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Didn't you see Ridley Scott's Robin Hood with Maid Marion in full armor fighting in a major battle! HAHAHA! She probably wouldn't be able to walk in armor, let alone fight, but these directors keep trying to make the middle ages a perfect PC environment.

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True, but at least in Robin Hood Blanchett completely gets her ass kicked by Godfrey before Robin has to come and save her. In that regard, it's at realistic as to what would happen [I[if[/I] a woman did step foot on the battlefield.

The problem with Camelot is that it's so intent on being PC (between the random black knights and the women demanding to be trained as warriors) that it's completely ridiculous and loses all credibility.

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The legends and stories of all the Amazons had to come from somewhere. So evidently, somewhere in history there was at least some form of all-female regiment.

As to women on the battlefield... in modern times, it gender makes no difference. It requires no more strength for a woman to fire a gun than it does a male.

If she were handling a broadsword or a longbow, then yes she would have to be uncommonly strong for a woman to use those weapons, particularly with the armor needed as well.

But a crossbow, or smaller bow and arrow, and a smaller and lighter blade or saber... any woman could be trained to use such things. And indeed, you'll find some probably were.

Hell, at the risk of sounding cliche here, Joan of Arc is a REAL figure from history and she had the respect of an army when most girls are playing with the latest Barbie doll.

Flynn 24

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"The legends and stories of all the Amazons had to come from somewhere. So evidently, somewhere in history there was at least some form of all-female regiment."

Not necessarily, no. At least not "evidently". No more than flying horses or nine-headed dragons. Imagination and fantasy were as powerful yesterday as they are today.
But other than that: yes, punctually, there have been some women fighters, and Joan of Arc is definitely the most famous example (Boudicca is often quoted as THE example of female warrior, the only problem I have with that is we have no idea whether she actually did fight or not; all we know is that she led her men in the revolt against the Romans, that doesn't necessarily place her on the battlefield; Joan of Arc, on the other hand, did fight among her men.)

"Occasionnally I'm callous and strange."

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This is because most people tend to confuse historiography with actual history, that and the term Amazon having become widely applied in the modern era to any female warrior type, historically based or not.

But I suppose it's true what it said about putting something in someone's face long enough it becomes reality and fact.

I also like your use of Joan of Arc as an example because it puts some amount of context on the debate. Joan of Arc is only so well known specifically because she was such an oddity; women and situations like hers were simply not commonplace and that's exactly why they stand out (female pirates, for instance).

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It should be noted that while Joan led the army, she didn't fight, she never killed anyone in battle. She isn't remembered because she was a great fighter, she's remembered because she was a great leader, and died a martyr for her cause.

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There are lots of legends and stories about trolls, fire-breathing dragons, sea monsters, vampires, and gods in flying chariots, too - by your (il)logic we can then assume that "somewhere in history there was at least some form" of the preceding phenomena, too.

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If I were a woman whose fate was to be determined by the knights protecting me and those knights were only a hand full against an army I would choose to FIGHT only a women could probably understand the agony of being raped .
I know those knights and King Arthur would fight to the death in order to protect the women in the castle but the chance still existed.And no one should be able to make a choice about your own fate but YOU !
So I am all for protecting yourself and aiding the men who will sacrifice their own life for you >if you prefer not to fight there is many things you can still do to assist your men in defending the castle.
Only a weak man would fear the strength of a woman .A smart man realizes its value.

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"a women could probably understand the agony of being raped"

Now, lets keep THAT kind of sexism out of this. Do you really think a man likes being raped anymore than a woman?

And it isn't just Male-on-Male rape either. A woman is perfectly capable of raping someone, be they male or female, as any male counterpart.

Flynn 24

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A woman is perfectly capable of raping someone, be they male or female, as any male counterpart.
Eh... from a legal standpoint, only in a statutory sense (as in with an underage male). Otherwise, the most you can get them on is sodomy.

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<< Of course the women won't stay inside and let the men be men. No, they need to be trained and ready to fight!...Morgan isn't enough of a strong female character, all of them have to throw down and be Amazons'. >>

I haven't watched the final 2 episodes yet...is this in reference to when they were preparing to defend Morgan's castle in the middle of the night?

Because in that sequence, the men say amongst themselves that they don't expect the women to really be of much assistance, but the preparation gives them something to concentrate on so they don't become more fearful.

It seems rather odd to be looking to Camelot for accuracy, as "King Arthur" never really existed. The whole thing is just a myth.

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