MovieChat Forums > J. Edgar (2011) Discussion > if his sexuality was so uncertain, why m...

if his sexuality was so uncertain, why make a movie as if it wasn't?

posted 12 years ago by frankduxvandamme
24 replies | jump to latest

If it is debated among historians - people who study this stuff for a living using research and evidence - whether Hoover's relationship with Tolson was either that of a good friend or of a lover then what possible good comes from releasing a hollywood film to the general public asserting one way or the other as if it were definitely known? Many people will now think J. Edgar Hoover was definitely gay entirely because of this film. Now obviously there's nothing wrong with being gay, but there is something seriously wrong with manipulating a person's life story in order to sell movie tickets.

Obviously when true stories are adapted into a 2 hour movie sometimes characters, events, and facts must be condensed or re-worked so that the story can be told in the time span of this format in a meaningful way without completely distorting the overall message. But what this movie does is present just one of the possibilities that some historians have put forth and declare that this is who J Edgar Hoover was. Honestly, I find this to be very deceptive and downright harmful to the american public who will take this movie as fact. I also find it shameful that movie studios can get away with doing things like this.

If I were making this movie I would have made Hoover's sexuality just as much of a mystery to the audience as it is to historians. I would include scenes based off of events described by their real life co-workers that showed Hoover's relationship with Tolson as being that of very close friends as well as scenes that dropped subtle hints based off of the claims made suggesting the possibility they could have been lovers.

[–] rainbird131162 12 years ago

But the movie never asserts that J Edgar was definitely gay. Show me an example from the film that unambiguously shows this? On second thoughts, don't bother. You can't because there isn't one. In fact in the key scene where Clyde Tolson kisses Edgar, Edgar's reaction is to push Tolson away and shout at him 'Don't you ever do that again!'

I just think you're constructing a theory that is completely at odds with the movie. Eastwood and Black are very careful to not cross the line here. They suggest a strong friendship between Edgar and Tolson and whilst it's reasonable to see Tolson's character as gay given his actions, it doesn't work for Edgar whose feelings (whatever they might be) are repressed by a mother who instills in him career ambition over and above the ability to love. That's the heart of the film. A man unable to express his love and whose emotions subsequently emerge in dark and disturbing ways through his position as head of the FBI. It's not about being gay at all!

You should go and watch the film again. It's much more subtle than you're giving it credit for.

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] rainbird131162 12 years ago

Since his mother's story is a warning to Edgar about the danger of ever appearing to be anything less than masculine and that's particularly important to her because she is obsessed with Edgar rising to the very top of the FBI. There's no indication that she thinks Edgar is gay. Why on earth would she think that? Because he feels awkward dancing with women?! Why not just shyness? In her own way she's simply trying to point out to Edgar that there are ways of behaving in public that young men have to adhere too because if they don't .. well, look what happened to that young man in her story.

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] rainbird131162 12 years ago

*adds billybob33 to ignore list*

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

[–] frankduxvandamme 12 years ago

rainbird,

billybob provided several examples in the film that shows him being depicted as gay. Here are some more:

1. there is a scene where they are all in the car together and j edgar and tolson briefly hold hands, and j edgar says something like "let's wait until we drop mother off" and then we see his mother hearing this comment! later on she gives him her "Daffodil" monologue.

2. J Edgar asks tolson if he knew why J Edgar was sweating when they first met. J Edgar explains that he was sweating because he knew at that moment that he needed tolson.

I don't know what movie you were watching but all of these scenes indicate J Edgar was gay, but that he was also clearly in the closet and he was afraid to come out because of his mother and his position in the FBI and possibly because of himself.

[–] rainbird131162 12 years ago

First, Edgar doesn't say 'Let's wait until we drop mother off!' in the context you mean and Edgar briefly putting his hand on Tolson's hardly makes him gay unless, I suppose, you've got a very macho outlook on life. And the business of Edgar sweating is because he was exercising in his office prior to Tolson's arrival. Yes, he likes Tolson but why does that make him gay?! The real J Edgar may or may not have been homosexual but the character as depicted here is that of a man starved of love by a domineering mother. The exact nature of his sexuality is a distant second to that and I don't see any evidence that the film is trying to out him. You need to look at the movie again instead of leaping to unwarranted conclusions. I pointed out the pivotal scene in the movie regarding the nature of their relationship in which Tolson kisses Edgar only for the latter to shove him away and shout at him to never do that again. But about that you keep silent. Doesn't fit your theory does it? See, J Edgar isn't about two gay men. If it was - if it took their sexuality as confirmed - it would be an entirely different movie.

I don't know what movie you were watching but all of these scenes indicate J Edgar was gay, but that he was also clearly in the closet and he was afraid to come out because of his mother and his position in the FBI and possibly because of himself.

Well they might indicate that to you but it's really not about him being gay. It's about his inability to express love and how those repressed impulses surfaced in his work. Perhaps you'll have noted that at the end of the movie, as Edgar ascends the stairs to his room, there's a voiceover from Tolson about the enduring power of love. Of love, not of being gay! If that doesn't make the thematic intention of the movie clear to you then I guess nothing will.

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] frankduxvandamme 12 years ago

First, Edgar doesn't say 'Let's wait until we drop mother off!' in the context you mean and Edgar briefly putting his hand on Tolson's hardly makes him gay unless, I suppose, you've got a very macho outlook on life.

Do you you even understand what it is you were watching? I get the feeling that you are either 12 years old, or retarded.

And the business of Edgar sweating is because he was exercising in his office prior to Tolson's arrival.

WRONG!!!! HE EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS THIS IN THE FILM!!!

When they are old men, J Edgar asks tolson if he knew why J Edgar was sweating. Tolson said because he was exercising. J Edgar says no, it was because he knew at that moment that he needed tolson.

You have just proven that you weren't paying close enough attention to the film as you watched it. Therefore, i'm not wasting any more time on you and your complete and obvious lack of understanding of what it is you watched.

[–] rainbird131162 12 years ago

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

[–] rainturd131162 12 years ago

Rainbird was too busy masturbating to Clint Eastwood to give the film his undivided attention.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] UbiQuItiOus_CrItiQue 12 years ago

he's definitely a closet gay. he says "love u" to clyde and thats just gay.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nikkiten1979 12 years ago

Holding hands, promise to have lunch and dinner everyday no matter how each feels, holding hands, looking lovingly into each others eyes, together pretty much all the time, telling Clyde he needed him from the day they met, he was as queer as one can get. The scene when they fight and Clyde places a kiss on Hoover might be confusing, but that doesn't mean they never kissed - Hoover saying don't ever do that again could mean "don't ever hit me or act up again". Hoover begged him not to go and he never married because Clyde told him to never mention a lady friend in his company. They were not just buddies if looking at the movie. They were definitely doing it and loved each other very much even though Hoover was a total SOB.

(•_•)

can't outrun your own shadow

[–] joe-armenta 12 years ago

"...maybe someone found some secret gay diary..." The MAFIA totally had the goods (pictures!) on him. That's why JEH always DENIED THE EXISTENCE of the Mafia and Organized Crime in America!

[–] tbs1 12 years ago

As I see it they depict J Edgar as gay or maybe bisexual or asexual but not an outlived homosexual. The character J Edgar Hoover is probably not aware to himself being gay. He consider himself as a man with strong character for not lusting for women and Tolson as his very best friend.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MeSdEuXcEnTs 12 years ago

"If I were making this movie I would have made Hoover's sexuality just as much of a mystery to the audience as it is to historians. I would include scenes based off of events described by their real life co-workers that showed Hoover's relationship with Tolson as being that of very close friends as well as scenes that dropped subtle hints based off of the claims made suggesting the possibility they could have been lovers." (sorry don't know how to indent or change the font)

I felt that was what the movie did. To me they had a very deep and close relationship, which even appeared to be platonic, could have gone either way. Hoover appeared asexual more than anything else. Besides, movies don't always accurately portray historical figures, actually history books are frequently debated.

Honestly, I didn't think it was a big deal and didn't add or take away from his character.

Jan 25, 2011 the day it all started. Walk like an Egyptian or just protest like one!

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] noirprncess 12 years ago

The problem is, there is little direct evidence of a homosexual relationship between the two.

However, what can't be refuted is the way they acted publicly. They were treated in every way as a couple - where one was invited, the other was also invited. They vacationed together, ate two meals a day together, rode to work together daily, etc. So either they had a kinship that made them really close in a non-sexual way or they closeted homosexuals. Either way, nothing was left that publicly declared what exactly their relationship was.

Given how gay people were viewed during that time period, I am not surprised that there is very little evidence available.

[–] JW-7 12 years ago

I think everyone is forgetting that he did come on to Helen Gandy when they first met, and at the very slightest hint of rejection, he retreated totally and hired her as his personal secretary, so there could (to him) be no further vestige of a personal relationship. This was preceded by his Mother telling him to "romance her."

Conclusion: He was totally repressed and confused, and his desire to be all-powerful won out over any need for a romantic relationship. He responded to the only person to whom he never had to be overt. The tone of the movie certainly strongly implies there was a homosexual relationship, if never explicitly stating it.

"The wrong kid died."