Granted he is no Mathew, but I really like Henry. Much better than Tony who was a bore and Mary didn't truly love him. They have a chemistry that can not be denied. Their story didn't have as much time to develop as Mary/Mathew but I think they are a good fit. Why the Henry hate?
shareZero Chemistry.
Henry has nothing going on in his head besides his stupid cars and his (out of the blue and unexplainable) passion for Mary.
He's not interested in what she does.
They have nothing in common.
He bullies her.
his (out of the blue and unexplainable) passion for Mary.
I do not see what possible reason he could have had for marrying her except for the inheritance.
sharehis (out of the blue and unexplainable) passion for Mary.
I'll have to disagree. I thought they had a lot of chemistry. Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes on the other hand had none at all. I hated that paring! Imagine having to get your best friend to ask your fiance if he expected you to have sex in a marriage. Seriously!
shareI thought they had a lot of chemistry.
So you are saying it wasn't passion for her as much as it was a show of passion to get at her assets? That would make more sense than him being enamored by her when she wasn't that nice, but she wasn't that nice to any of her suitors and they all seemed about the same to me. And I agree with Andorra he was a bully. But also it seemed like since the show was wrapping up he was just the guy who was there and happy endings can only be marriages in a hack writer's world, so it wasn't so much that this character felt right to be Mary's husband so the plot went that way as much as Mary needed a husband so a romance was hastily written to get to that end game.
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Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.
Zero Chemistry.
Henry has nothing going on in his head besides his stupid cars and his (out of the blue and unexplainable) passion for Mary.
He's not interested in what she does.
They have nothing in common.
He bullies her.
I think the exact opposite of everything you said! I loved them together and thought they were a perfect match. LOL It's interesting how different viewers can see completely different stories unfolding.
Edited to add: I was responding to Andorra's first post and this one ended up down here. Oh well...
Actually, any man's passion for Mary is unexplainable in my humble opinion, except for the challenge of possibly being the one to melt the heart of and conquer the 'ice queen'. She was beastly to all of them keeping several dangling at once, until she could make up her fickle mind which one would meet both her and the estate's requirements. Henry was, in my view, the least attractive of her suitors; and just as shallow as she is; maybe that was the attraction. After the conquest, I doubt there would be much to hold any man's interest. She is ill-educated by her own admission, shallow and lacking empathy, unkind to almost everyone except Anna-and even some of that was self-interest; Anna had access to her plots and secrets that few others had-, seems to have a good head for business (not a particularly desirable quality in a woman at that time), beautiful in a 1920s way, and has the figure to wear those beautiful clothes, has upper-class bearing and manners but that is about it. She was lucky to get Henry, and ended up marrying in a way beneath her. She is becoming a bit long in the tooth, and in the end, I think she married out of desperation; she had driven away more worthy suitors.
It was good to see Edith finally one-up her in the end by marrying a title.
That being said, Mary was one of my favorite characters to watch. In a way her journey was that of elder daughters as far back and farther than Jane Austen's time. Women especially among the wealthy where estates could be entailed away from the immediate family to the nearest male relative if at least one of the daughters preferably the eldest, did not make an advantageous marriage to save the estate for the family, were under a lot of pressure to marry well. Like the heroines of Pride and Prejudice, Mary wanted a marriage for love as well as wealth and preferably, title. In the case of her first marriage to Matthew, she snared the putative heir to the estate and title as well as, by the timely accident of Lavinia's death, a fortune to support that name and title. To Mary's credit, she did accept Matthew before he acquired the Swire fortune. She married him for love. That type of luck doesn't often happen twice.
For male heirs of impoverished estates, things were not too different. They, too, were under pressure to marry wealth; the titles weren't of much use without the money to support them and those grand estates. That was Lord Grantham's situation when he married Cora Levinson; it was her fortune that supported the estate. Luckily for him, the marriage was also for love. And of course, we are beginning to see that in time, those grand estates would become too expensive for even the wealthy to support. Some would open their homes to tourists. Some homes were abandoned and pulled down. I read that the topmost rooms of Highclere Castle, I think the servants's quarters, could not be used for filming because they were in need of repairs. The current Lord Carnarvon and his wife do need to bring in income; I know they have income from several ventures as well as opening the castle to tourists, but you can bet they were grateful for the income brought in by the main filming of Downton Abbey at the Castle.
I could be a morning person if morning happened at noon.
There was nothing *wrong with Henry and I didn't dislike him - it's just I was expecting (and wanted) the big romance to be with Charles Blake. He was the most exciting, more challenging and most compatible of her suitors. I liked him more than Matthew.
* edit
[deleted]
I liked Clarles Blake as well. I was rooting for him, and thought their may be a chance when he helped her brake it off with Tony..but seemed like they were destined to be good friends. I didn't like him more than Mathew though. Always love Matthew the most. But when Henry came in tbe picture I really liked him.
shareCharles Blake was the best of Mary's post-Matthew suitors. He got to know Mary well, and saw through her aristocratic facade. He even knew about her trip with Tony, and wasn't bothered or judgmental. He challenged her in the right ways, and encouraged her. I think Mary was very attracted to Charles, and they had tons of chemistry.
Julian Fellows wanted a twist in Mary's storyline, having the character who started as a snobbish girl obsessed with wealth and status, marry a poor man with no title. Since Charles was in line for a title, and was wealthy, that meant he couldn't be the one for Mary.
Fellows really ruined Mary's story by having her marry Henry. Better to have left her single than married to Henry.
I agree. Charles was the better match. Hell, Tom should have been in the running!!!!!
shareIf Blake would have been a little more niecer and no so "witty" could have worked, also leave it without a tittle, just a professional man with a decent career. It would have been like Mary marrying Matthew "the plain solicitor".
But when Blake started to play games with Mary-Mabel Lane Fox-Gillingham i fell that Mary inmatured, in other words, the worst of Mary came out (snob, frivolous, inmature, etc). And in that point of the series, i wanted to see another character, not the character of season 1 when Mary was in her 20´s, single and without a child.
I think that a character portrayed by the same actor would have worked, i mean, i young professional man, with intelligence and ambition. Because i saw to the last Henry Talbot as a play boy, not a matured man in his 30.
Without starting a Edith vs Mary, that i think that was one of the reasons that the "dull Bertie" was so popular, because in contrast with Mary´s men, he showed the right amount of empathy, intellingence and modesty. I dont know why JF didnt try to make the post Matthew men more gentle or modest.
Certainly the chemistry can be denied. There was none at all that I could see. There was no discernible passion between them. There were no sparks between the characters and even more deadly, there were no sparks between the two actors.
Henry was bland. Mary was not likeable. Their "love" was pure contrivance. All of the reasons why people didn't care for that story line have been posted on this board many, many times before.
I agree with you. My sentiments exactly. To add a funny note:
A friend and I were watching the episode where Henry and Mary kissed in the rain and we both commented on the lack of chemistry and passion during that scene. We paused for a beat and my friend said "Well, they are British." 😃
Their "love" was pure contrivance.
The twist would have made way more sense if the guy had something going for him. He didn't. Other than racing cars, he had zero interests. There was nothing for them to talk about. If she thought that's why Gilingham was in inappropriate, Henry was inappropriate x10. It would have been very easy to find a commoner who was Mary's intellectual match. Someone not unlike Matthew... or Blake before the reveal.
shareNot to mention the contrasting likability of Bertie and the warm sympathy between him and Edith almost from the start. That whole "merry war" between contrary lovers is more fun for dramatists, but sympathetic friendship is a much better start for a real life romance.
shareAgree 100%. I just finished watching the PBS Downtown Marathon and specifically compared the Edith-Bertie and Mary-Henry romances. Edith and Bertie's was built up slowly, with more time on screen, and they got along from the beginning, moving from acquaintance to friendship to romance. Mary and Henry had a bigger gap between first and second meetings, Mary was disdainful to him, and then all of a sudden he was madly in love with her. If he is the guy who falls in love with the women who treat him like garbage, this does not make him "Mary's equal," at least emotionally. She was in charge and he was begging for her love. How and when exactly did Mary fall in love with him? It was never dramatically credible. They went from zero to in love with nothing in between. On the rematch, I think I liked their romance even less than the first time through.
shareInteresting, on subsequent rewatches I have found their romance more compelling than I did initially.
shareI liked Henry and Mary in Season 5 when the family was staying at Brancaster Castle. It was obvious that Mary was more interested in him than he was in her which made for a nice change. But in Season 6, he became just another generic suitor panting at Mary's feet like Mr. Napier, Lord Gillingham, and Mr. Blake.
With Matthew, the romance developed slowly over time and the viewers had time to become invested. The relationship with Henry came out of the blue in the last few episodes. It just fell rushed and contrived. I wish Mary had realized she didn't really want to marry anyone.
On another note, I liked the actor who played Henry and think he should have been cast instead as Cora's brother, Harold Levinson. We know he can do an American accent. He would have been much more believable than the actor who they did choose. He even looks a bit like Cora (tall, thin, dark hair and blue eyes). That way, maybe he could have stayed on in England.
I liked Henry and Mary in Season 5 when the family was staying at Brancaster Castle. It was obvious that Mary was more interested in him than he was in her which made for a nice change. But in Season 6, he became just another generic suitor panting at Mary's feet like Mr. Napier, Lord Gillingham, and Mr. Blake.
I wish Mary had realized she didn't really want to marry anyone.
Yeah exactly. Although I honestly don't remember his first appearance, he became so similar to all the other suitors, I wasn't sure why he was the one or why we should be invested. They were all rich, aristocratic, brown haired, good looking, well mannered men fawning over Mary and were basically male Marys. Like you said, she grew with Matthew, and Matthew was pretty different from her, from a different part of society, but willing to challenge her and stand up to her and wasn't lovesick for her right off the bat.Exactly. Historically it would have been the other way around. So many young men died from that class and cohort that every one of the survivors was an automatic catch. Some people talk about Henry like he's bottom of the barrel; in 1925 he would have had duke's daughters thrown at him. The other three with titles and estates would have been even more in demand, while Mary is approaching middle age with no great fortune of her own and a child whose inheritance would have taken away her full attention from any children she might have with Lord This-or-That.
Wow - someone really doesn't want pro Henry views on this - 2 of my posts deleted now. Seriously?
I loved the storyline. Making Henry a racing driver just added an interesting twist. Can you imagine a less likely match for a woman whose husband died in a car crash?
People are so right about the slow build with Matthew - how many seasons of will they/won't they? H + M had 6 episodes yet by the end they were as they should be - a happy couple full of possibilities for the future - new baby, new business.
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
I personally thought they were perfect for each other. Far better than the other doormats that were matched to her - Henry was her equal and stood up to her which no one else (aside Edith) did.
To you, Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?
I have to agree with you. Henry went toe to toe with Mary and called Mary on her crap. It seemed like after the "Red Dinner", everyone started calling Mary on her bullying behavior and became less tolerant of it. By your mid-30's you shouldn't be doing the stuff that Mary loves doing (beating Edith down, airing somebody else's bad laundry just because you are unhappy).
I think Mary's bad behavior went on for so long is because her parents and the Dowager never consistently nipped the behavior in the bud.
Eldarwen
Always forgive your enemies- nothing annoys them so much.
There is zero chemistry between Mary and Henry. I'm not sure how others say he stands up to her. After their marriage he always seemed so insecure about their others perception of him. While he pushed the courtship between them and said his piece about it, he didn't really do more than that.
Mary was always a strong woman who was portrayed as needing a strong man to compliment her personality. Henry comes off as the kind of person that Mary could walk all over. For example, when Henry takes a risk and opens the car dealership with Tom, he looks for Mary's approval. As soon as she does not reassure him he becomes insecure and needy. Tom offers no apologies for trying out a dream, but Henry looks to Mary for weather or not it is right. I would feel that if Mary said it was embaracing for the family and she didn't want to be married to a used car salesman, Henry would have given it up. Tom would have gone it alone, because he does not care what Mary thinks.
Personally the suitors that offered Mary the most were a combination of all. Witt and charm wise Charles Blake could match Mary. Sir Richard was strong and complimented that side of Mary's personality. Henry and Lord Gilliham certainly loved her and she needed that to soften her personality.
Personality out of all her suitors, I think Blake was the best match.
For example, when Henry takes a risk and opens the car dealership with Tom, he looks for Mary's approval. As soon as she does not reassure him he becomes insecure and needy.
Mary is very accepting of Henry and it is one of the things l liked about her character growth. The part of the scene I am talking about is when Mary does not instantly respond (because she was taking it all in) and his first response is to question weather she is ashamed of him. It's just one of the examples of his insecurities after their marriage.
shareIt's really not character growth when a character is written totally out of character in her actions and behavior. Mary didn't grow or evolve in that relationship one iota. If anything it was just her being bullied into that relationship by her entire family.
S6 was an absolute disaster for Mary's character.
Agreed. I never hated her more.
A rose is just a rose.
If anything it was just her being bullied into that relationship by her entire family.
She offered him total acceptance and approval at his news.
There is zero chemistry between Mary and Henry.
Part of the problem, in hindsight, is that JF just threw men at Mary.
With DS he and MD had enough chemistry that it worked almost in spite of itself-S3 showed the limits of what they could do though as the material became worse and worse.
But once DS left JF seemed so obsessed with giving Mary a new man that he just threw guys at her and it made no sense. The suitors were trotted out way to quickly. And none of the suitors had a legitimate reason to be at DA. They had no arc outside of wanting to marry Mary. The whole sum of their character was wanting to marry Mary. TC and JO were both good actors but were given no chance to work because neither Tony or Blake had organic ties to the canvas.
MG was clearly hired for his name and for being a popular actor. But JF's writing was so atrocious that I felt like he just gave up. And he and MD may be friends but they have absolute anti-chemistry.
I agree though the constant romantic subplot was just exhausted.
Now that you mention it, you're right about Goode and Dockery. If I hadn't read the press and interviews about the two of them being friends irl, you'd have had to show me proof for me to believe it. They had absolutely no natural chemistry. I mean either they've been friends so long that they've grown bored of each other or it was all a lie. Because for the life of me, I saw remotely no natural feeling between the two. Yet I saw a ton of chemistry between Allan and Matthew.
A rose is just a rose.
In their two scenes together there was actually more chemistry between Henry and "Edie."
I don't put it down to the actors, it's the characters. By the final season Mary had gone through eligible suitors like a drum of Pringles, none of whom were good enough for her:
Napier
Strallan
Carlyle
Gillingham
Blake
Despite their genuine attractiveness, and postwar rarity.
The men she did pick, Matthew and Henry, both seemed to live in fear of her disapproval. Her two rivals, Lavinia and Mable, seemed much more likable and attractive as life partners--no one was afraid of them.
I think it's less a matter of chemistry or craft, and more of credibility. That any man could please Mary and be pleased by her is literally incredible.
Quote: The men she did pick, Matthew and Henry, both seemed to live in fear of her disapproval. Her two rivals, Lavinia and Mable, seemed much more likable and attractive as life partners--no one was afraid of them.
I think it's less a matter of chemistry or craft, and more of credibility. That any man could please Mary and be pleased by her is literally incredible.
____________
Ha! I think you just nailed it. Especially the last sentence.
Oh how funny - yet another post deleted - one with just general chit chat about Henry and Mary and why they are a good match. So someone here does not want to have a pro Henry opinion on this board? I've noticed other contributors posts have been deleted as well. Truly childish. If you don't want to see a pro Henry opinion I suggest this person ignores me.
To summarise what I said - Henry's character can't win - if he stands up to Mary he is labelled a bully and if he seeks her approval he is seen as a wimp. I agree with Literary - they are a good match.
Another point I made was that Tom and Henry set up the business without Grantham cash - so is that really the behaviour of someone who is just after her money? Deleted 3 times now - someone sure disagrees with this point! 😉
I also said Hi to JohnD61 who I haven't chatted with in a while and told him that us Brits have plenty of passion! 😍
Apparently that offended someone? Hilarious! 😇
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
My post was not deleted I deleted it myself because I was tired to talk about the topic.
I have n o t reported a single post from anyone ever.
But it is obvious that someone with connections does not like your posts.
Hi to you, too. I did not see your original post, so did not know you had said "howdy." Anyway. Howdy.
shareOh how funny - yet another post deleted - one with just general chit chat about Henry and Mary and why they are a good match. So someone here does not want to have a pro Henry opinion on this board? I've noticed other contributors posts have been deleted as well. Truly childish. If you don't want to see a pro Henry opinion I suggest this person ignores me.
To summarise what I said - Henry's character can't win - if he stands up to Mary he is labelled a bully and if he seeks her approval he is seen as a wimp. I agree with Literary - they are a good match.
Another point I made was that Tom and Henry set up the business without Grantham cash - so is that really the behaviour of someone who is just after her money? Deleted 3 times now - someone sure disagrees with this point! 😉
I also said Hi to JohnD61 who I haven't chatted with in a while and told him that us Brits have plenty of passion! 😍
Apparently that offended someone? Hilarious! 😇
My detective instincts tell me that the culprit is either Bates or......Anna.
shareYes - has to be a Bates - or two! Hi John, Tomcervo, etc. What a good idea tomcervo - copying my posts. Thanks for that. I guess I should be flattered that someone takes the time to get them deleted.
Me neither Python (on reporting people) - I don't even know how to report. We usually sort things out here in the open. So do you reckon someone in IMDB is a Brary fan????!!!! 😉 And I find myself agreeing with you twice (is this a miracle?) - most things to be said, have already been said on this topic.
Anyone got anymore news about the film? Sorry - off topic. Will start another thread.
XXX
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."
Maybe someone has find out about you password for IMDB and for fun does delete your posts ?
shareMaybe someone has find out about you password for IMDB and for fun does delete your posts ?
In retrospect, "123456" was a poor choice of password.
Rats - you guessed it! I'll change it to 'Password' - much safer! : )
BritGirl
"Don't change so people will like you. Be yourself and the right people will love you."