shower scene


I really loved this movie but....
wtf is that shower scene about. women, chatting about incidentals while standing unabashedly around stark naked? WHEN does that ever happen? only in films it seems to me. The scene seemed so contrived that I had to go check if the director was male. In fact it is a female director so perhaps her experiences are different than mine. I'm Australian and we don't tend to have communal showering, so perhaps it's a cultural thing.

The scene is no more realistic than a bunch of men shooting the breeze while standing at the urinals.

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Men do shoot the *beep* at urinals....

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Don't know what you're talking about. Happens in my head about five times a day. ;-)

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[deleted]

Don't know if I agree with you about this being a primary motivation for Margot in that simple a way (although I think it could be a factor), but I do agree that the scene is absolutely full of meaning and about as far from gratuitous as it gets. I absolutely agree that switching between the shots of the younger women and the older women is for a very specific purpose, which isn't articulated explicitly but I think can't be missed by anybody who's paying attention. When you think about a female writer-director setting up that scene, it's even more apparent how intentional it was.

I don't think it's quite as unmediated as "Margot sees the march of time, sees her own future, and is filled with urgency to get attention and be noticed." But (as I've said elsewhere on this board, sorry if this is repetitious for anybody) I do think that time and mortality certainly are strands in this larger theme of the meaning of marriage and fidelity. In a really strange but unmistakably true way, marriage is an acknowledgement and a reminder of mortality, because you're promising to be faithful to this person for the rest of your life, which reminds you 1) that you do have an end to this life, and 2) that you are one particular person who is choosing one path over others, with the idea that you're giving up the other paths, or there's no point in the marriage at all. It's a foreclosure of all other possible lives for yourself and all roads not taken, at least those having to do with a committed and sexually intimate relationship. This will be the person who will be there when you die, if he/she lives longer than you. Or you'll be the person there when he/she dies. You'll watch each other grow old, and you'll see the body's "comic fall," as I heard it described one time. So if you got married because you loved the feeling of being worshiped so much, that's really a problem, isn't it? Because the nature of the thing is that generally -- not in every single instance, of course, but in by far the majority of cases -- the initial rush settles down to a slower burn (and after a long time, if you have a "burn" at all, you're pretty fortunate). This is why the mass-culture idea of "love" and the reality of love as a lifetime commitment are at odds, and why that conflict can lead to real tragedy at times.

Anyway...yeah, I do think there's something about those older women (in the shower scene) that adds to Margot's thinking. Something like, "I'll be there soon enough, and then nobody will want me. I miss that 'new love' feeling." (Also, if I remember right, it's Daniel who describes what he wants to do to her, not the other way around, the significance of which seems obvious.) How do you know what "forsaking all others" means when you're in your 20s, and you're nowhere near a full concept of your own mortality? What happens when you feel time passing, and you even see it in front of your own eyes (as in the shower scene)? These are the kinds of questions that make the film so serious and so worthwhile, not to mention courageous and unblinking. Stark. Terrifying.

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[deleted]

Those "roads not taken" are compelling though aren't they?Z


You'd better believe it. But I look at it this way: In a marriage (or other form of lifetime commitment), the forsaking of others is the price you're paying for the depth of a lifelong relationship with This One Person. And that one person knows it. If she does the same for you, then it's the price she's paid, and pays every day, for making you her only. That's how much she thinks you're worth, and how much you think she's worth. In other words, the high value you put on that other person, and that she (or he) puts on you, is in direct proportion to how aware you are, and he or she is, of the roads not taken (which, I guess, can be any form of alternative lives not lived, which can involve other people, other spouses, other lovers, whatever). It's like a daily sacrifice: The rest of the world isn't worth as much to me as you and this one single life together. Pretty powerful, but I don't think people tend to think of it that way. They think, "I'm more attracted to you now than anybody else, so hey, I guess we should get married," and then in five years, or seven, or ten, when the "feeling" changes, the basis for the terms changes, and it's over.

This is why I really think any discussion of marital fidelity really is a discussion of the acknowledgement of human limitedness and mortality. You're limiting your life to the life you have with this one person, and there are no do-overs. That can be a beautiful, deep, wonderful thing, but I do think people need exactly that sobering thought when they decide to make that lifetime commitment. Marriage shouldn't be just a "natural next step" for people who are dating and really like each other. It shouldn't be a matter of degree -- as in, "I love you so much now, there's just nothing to do other than to get married." If by "love" that person means a strong feeling of affection, that feeling can vary over time. It can't be the central basis of a marriage, but if it isn't, then what is the basis? Margot doesn't have an answer for that. Neither do a lot of people. Maybe most people.

As for your second graf, I'm trying to follow the argument, but I think I'm missing something important. When you say "I don't think it's a burningly relevant scene for Margot," and "I think it's one of the few scenes actually - maybe the only scene - that feels in some ways a statement in itself, outwith the film and its characters' predicaments," I'm thinking that the film itself and its entire thematic thrust is beyond these specific characters, as is the case with just about all really good films, far as I'm concerned. (I really am less and less likely to pay any attention to films that are about nothing but their own running time, especially the ones that do so in a hypocritical postmodernist oh-so-coolism mode, because that's the statement those films are making beyond their own running time, which they pretend not to be making at all.) And I absolutely think there are both dialogue and visuals in the scene that go straight to what's going on with Margot, which is a question or set of questions just about every married person is conscious of at some point. In fact, the material in this scene is so relevant and so obvious that I thought it might've come off a little clunky. So I must be missing what you're saying, or maybe it's just a difference of opinion.

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What I didn't feel seemed right was that all the women seemed cool with Margot after they all had to get out of the pool when she peed in it.... Probably why they were all immediately taking showers in the first place.

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Regardless of whether it happens or not, the dialogue in that scene was amazing!
I really loved that scene and how wise the drunk friend and the older woman were.

"It is never about what happened, it is only how you look at it!"

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I have never seen a group of woman casually standing around in the shower together. And I am an older woman who has had many opportunities to see this if it's going to happen. Women are too insecure about their bodies and too worried about being compared with each other and coming up short (so to speak). I have been in lots of shower situations but women seek privacy and there's lots of quickly covering with towels. I never see anyone walking into or out of a shower without being covered. This unselfconscious nudity just doesn't happen, in my many years of experience. I can't even remember seeing an open shower room like that, except maybe when I was a kid at a swimming pool. It's all separate shower stalls where I come from (and where I've been).

This kind of gratuitous nude scene is disappointing in a film by a woman. We see it all the time by men, living out their fantasies. Sorry to see a woman using this cheap device.

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Every time I see comments like these, I am reminded of how men are not now, nor have they ever been, the problem that feminists go on and on about.

Here we have a female poster who -- rather than getting past her proclivity for body-shame (and apparent projection of it on to the entire rest of her gender) -- accuses a woman writer/director of pandering to "cheap" male fantasies because the reality of her movie does not convey the same sort of shame and embarrassment she has continually experienced in regards to nudity, throughout her life.

Holy solipsistic sexist, Batman.

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I think the whole point of the shower scene is that the older women give advice to the younger women...advice most appropriately given by women who are older and, presumably, with more life experience. "New things get old, too"

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Communal Showers are very normal for both men and women and yes, men chat at urinals quite often.

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Communal Showers are pretty normal here in Europe. Many public swimming pools have them.

Relax, and grow up. It's only a naked body.

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I have used communal showers at gyms and health clubs I have been to. And the point of the scene was the bonding and shared confidences of the women characters; the communal shower setting simply made that easier.

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Do you wear clothes in the shower? Interesting.

Women are not as hung up about being in a shower as men are. After all, they use the restroom all the time together. I don't think it's unusual at all for them to be discussing things while showering. Again, women are not as hung up on being nude in the shower like men are.



The plural of mouse is mice. The plural of goose is geese. Why is the plural of moose not meese?

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