MovieChat Forums > Maleficent (2014) Discussion > Look, If You Didn't Like This Movie, The...

Look, If You Didn't Like This Movie, Then...


I agree with you 1000%

This is another in a line of Disney disappointments, which culminated with the latest canon-breaking Star Wars film... and with this thoughtless, uncreative, formulaic, emasculating travesty the downhill snowball continues with the many promised sequels to this film.

Sigh.

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"Then come here and vent about it!"

Some things were fantastic, but it's style over substance, and the anti-male mentality of it is rather off-putting. Malificient starts off as perfect, only becomes somewhat evil when the power hungry king invades the moors, and then she becomes really evil when the boy who gives her the kiss of true love chooses power over her, making her truly vengeful. Her bond with Aurora seems forced to me. The prince may seem nice, but he's bland, and it opens up the possibility that "Happily Ever After" with him and Aurora (with the sequel coming up!) might not be so happy. The political ramifications behind all of the glitz is manipulative and passive/aggressive, and also makes evil disguised as good seem like the way to go. If I were to watch this as the social climate of our world changes even more, I would most likely grow to hate it.

"Great theater makes you smile. Outstanding theater may make you weep."

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Oh my. You actually watched the film. I had to bail. Did a little fast forwarding after taking in the first 15 minutes or so. Besides the story, just a little too intense for this one. ;>

cheers.

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It's not anti-male, it's just poorly written.

This is evidenced by Maleficent being a victim who punishes the wrong person, the 3-stooges fairies, the queen with no lines (1959 queen at least had two or three), and Aurora being just as bland as Philip.

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Linda Woolverton, even as far back as when Beauty and the Beast was made into a Disney film, made it VERY clear that she had been influenced by the 1970s' Women's Liberation Front when making the film, and how Maleficent was ultimately a continuation of Beauty and the Beast in terms of themes. In other words, yes, it IS pushing an anti-male agenda. Even the Federalist noted the anti-male agenda being pushed in it. Don't believe me? Read this: http://thefederalist.com/2014/06/06/maleficent-once-upon-a-screed/

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There are terrible leaps of logic in that article regarding this movie itself. I don't see how it could do any more to defeat itself in any other area regarding the subject.

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Maybe, but Linda Woolverton made VERY clear what her agenda was when she made the film. Don't believe me? Read this:

*http://time.com/2798136/maleficent-beauty-beast-writer/

You can also read this. That makes it more explicit (especially when by the time of the 1970s, at least in America, feminism had already been hijacked by the Marxists and demanding to slaughter men and oppress men).

*http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/26/linda-woolverton-alice-belle-disney-heroines?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Heck, I'll even quote the specific part:

You thought that the one-note princess thing was a bit tired? Well, yeah. I just didn’t think anyone was going to buy it, honestly. By the time I rolled around, I’d been through the women’s movement in the ‘60s and ‘70s and I definitely couldn’t buy that this smart, attractive young girl, Belle, would be sitting around and waiting for her prince to come. That she was someone who suffers in silence and only wants a pure rose? That she takes all this abuse but is still good at heart? I had a hard time with that.


Emphasis in bold originally from the article, and emphasis in italics mine. For the record, Jesus Christ suffered in silence as well. That's even how we ultimately ended up redeemed. And for the record, the only DP before Belle who ACTUALLY waited for their prince to come was Aurora (Even Snow White, who did sing about how someday her prince would come, did in fact do quite a bit on her own, like flee the castle when she learned that the Queen would kill her if she returned, not to mention it was implied she wanted to escape from her bad situation overall). Cinderella didn't even plan on meeting the prince, just going to the ball, so she couldn't have waited for her prince to come to even consider leaving her wicked stepfamily. And Ariel? Ariel didn't even KNOW Prince Eric existed when she formulated her goals, so it's obvious she couldn't have waited for her prince to come, and besides, she also pursued her dreams before meeting Eric. In fact, all Eric did was give her the necessary push in the right direction. So in all point of fact, Woolverton's flat out wrong with that description.

Okay, I'll acknowledge that Linda Woolverton at the time the film's development was being made may have mentioned the demonization of Ariel was "unfair." But right now, considering she doesn't even make any distinctions of Belle's predecessors as seen in that quote, it's at best discarded, and at worst insincere. Had it been me in her position, I would ALWAYS make VERY clear that Ariel was an exception to that rule when praising Belle.

And just because they marry doesn't mean it's not anti-male. Need I remind you that one of the more notorious misandrists, Andrea Dworkin, is married to a gay guy? And I can cite plenty of other sources as well:

*https://ccostello.blogspot.com/2007/05/feminism-vs-womens-rights.html

*http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/LAF_Theme_Articles_13/You_Don_t_Know_Feminism_744100744.shtml

And bear in mind, the people who wrote those articles are women.

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For the record, the quote does not at all support your premise.

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Yeah, actually, it does. Or did you somehow miss the bit about the 1960s and 1970s feminism playing a major role in Linda Woolverton's creation of Belle (something she explicitly stated in both articles), or how both You Don't Know Feminism and Ladies Against Feminism made explicit that feminism of the Simone de Beauvoir and Gloria Steinem class were misandric?

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I don't pay attention to links that are not clickable and given your history of illogical articles, I don't I would find those two any more edifying.

Or did you somehow miss the bit about the 1960s and 1970s feminism playing a major role in Linda Woolverton's creation of Belle


So? I fail to see how that means the movies are man-hating.

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I don't pay attention to links that are not clickable and given your history of illogical articles, I don't I would find those two any more edifying.


Fine then,

*https://ccostello.blogspot.com/2007/05/feminism-vs-womens-rights.html

*http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/LAF_Theme_Articles_13/You_Don_t_Know_Feminism_744100744.shtml

This should actually work for you. And they're not illogical because these are people who actually sourced their materials and have actually experienced feminism of the 1960s-1970s brand first hand.

So? I fail to see how that means the movies are man-hating.


Do you even KNOW what the 1960s-1970s feminist movement was like? It was FULL of man-haters, often declaring the end to patriarchy in a manner most alike to Marxist movements against the Bourgeoise. And when she said she was inspired by the 1960s-1970s Feminist movement enough to model Belle AFTER those groups from that time, that logically means she based them on those movements. Had I been in her position and I said that was my inspiration and I knew what they were like, that's EXACTLY what I would have been implying.

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In other words, you're simply dismissing their claims as "man-hating" rather than trying to understand where they are coming from.

Btw, you know who also sourced their materials? The cracked article I posted below. We're done here though so it doesn't matter.

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In other words, you're simply dismissing their claims as "man-hating" rather than trying to understand where they are coming from.


I already understand EXACTLY where they are coming from: They are a bunch of committed Marxists who wanted to tear down society and completely remake it simply because they were bored. I know EXACTLY what they're like because I had to deal with that kind of Feminist professor myself, and that professor lied about how women didn't get an education at all until the 1960s (something which even a pro-1960s documentary debunked by citing that women during the 1950s got jobs such as a teacher, nurse, secretary, and/or plane stewardess). And most of those icons during that time were actually VERY well off, and never even experienced what being a housewife actually was like, not to mention if anything were political activists for hire. And they all made their negative views on men VERY clear. In fact, if I were to try and be reasonable with them, they would just call me someone who is part of the patriarchy and infer I'm a rapist just because I have the crime of having male reproductive organs, regardless of what my actual character is like. If you STILL don't believe me regarding what feminism TRULY is like since the 1970s, I'll give you a full example: https://www.mediafire.com/#e02pmeur6q4yb Just listen to what she has to say, especially her claim that women were completely illiterate until the 1960s, which is demonstrably false. Those feminists have already made their statements VERY clear with their words and their sources, what's not understand regarding where they are coming from? If anything, it's YOU who doesn't understand what they are or exactly where they are coming from. How about you google 1970s feminist misandry.

And for the record, you want the kind of feminism I actually respect? Try the Suffragette movement. Heck, just look at Joan of Arc.

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Sorry, this discussion is over & your insistance to continue it has me tempted to put you on ignore.

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Fine, I won't continue with the discussion, said all I needed to anyways, but can you at LEAST try to listen to the recordings on the link so you know EXACTLY where I'm coming from regarding personal experience? Not asking that you agree with me, just that you at least make an effort to listen to the recordings.

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I consider Maleficent to be one of the worst films I've seen in the last couple of years. It surprises me that this actually has a 7 on imdb.

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They should they should have stuck with the original story it was wonderful and those Fairies annoying.

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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587310/board/thread/230487728

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Yeah.

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[deleted]

I certainly didn't expect this post. And yes, you can count me as one of those who thought the film was a disappointment. Granted, I already wasn't sure about the film when I heard they were probably going to make her good at some point (I figured they should have, if they're going to do an origin story, they write it like the Darth Plagueis novel regarding Palpatine, or Albert Wesker in the Umbrella Chronicles), but I figured, hey, maybe it will be an origin story showing her start of darkness, like with Caesar from the Planet of the Apes movies being released currently, or Big Boss in Metal Gear, or Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars, or Magneto in X-Men First Class. They didn't even do that. Instead, they literally made her good all along. AND it was canon-breaking as well. It also doesn't help that Linda Woolverton yet again used the film as a platform for her anti-Male agenda, which she used in Mulan and Beauty and the Beast.

I also agree with you regarding The Force Awakens. The film was canon-breaking, basically rehashed A New Hope so blatantly it wasn't even funny, and unlike with, say, The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea, they didn't make ANY effort at trying to actually be creative regarding the rehashment, and if anything, the way it was rehashed actually WORSENED continuity and reality than before. I'd even argue that because of The Force Awakens' massive problems with continuity, Disney probably shouldn't have even bothered turning the Expanded Universe into Legends.

Honestly, even the Eisner-era DTV extension films (I'd call them sequels, but there are several that are prequels, midquels, and interquels) were far better than this line of garbage. Remind me why these were better than the DTV stuff from the Eisner era? Sure, the Eisner era DTV extensions weren't particularly good, but they were certainly better than the current fare of sequels. Heck, even Ariel's Beginning, which I maintain was probably tied with Hunchback of Notre Dame II as being the WORST DTV extension film EVER, was better than The Force Awakens and Maleficent in one regard: At least Ariel was actually kept somewhat intact, even if it's only her rebellious nature (which was only the case because Jodi Benson pushed for them to retain at least that aspect of her character). That's more than can be said with the original cast from The Force Awakens or the characters in the Maleficent movie.

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The Disneyfication of these classics is under full swing. That was my biggest fear when George sold off the franchise; that SW would be "Disneyfied". You seem well informed so I'm sure you viewed the Luca interview wherein he [half-kiddingly] comments that he sold off the characters to "white slave traders". He caught He** for that statement, but it was simply a colorful way to express what had taken place... Disney chose to go a different way from what George was outlining, and Lucas was powerless to stop it. So for me, SW is dead. I did not take in TFA and will likely not go to see Rebel One.

I am tempted to add that Walt must be rolling over in his grave over what Disney has devolved to, but then I was reminded of how he treated the Alice in Wonderland story in his famous 1951 adaption, which quite broke canon.

Of course there were two things with that AIW: Everybody breaks canon with that story, to one degree or another. And secondly, he broke with class. Walt Disney's rendering of the classic book was so beautifully done that only the strictest Lewis Carroll fans could object.

Cheers


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Yeah, I heard, though he should have sufficed with "Slave traders", as there have been black slave traders and Asian slave traders, among others. I'm not fond of George Lucas, though. To me, he killed Star Wars the very second he admitted he based the Rebel Alliance on the Vietcong and the Empire on America, not to mention had always intended for them to represent those respective groups since he started writing the first film in 1973. I don't support communists (in fact, I utterly hate them due to their persecuting and trying to commit genocide against religion, Christianity especially), especially not if they are treated as good guys. Not even the Prequel Trilogy and it's fair share of problems, or even Han Shot First, was enough to really shake my liking of Star Wars, that's how bad it was, that revelation. Yet it speaks volumes that Lucas would have been a better choice compared to Abrams. As bad as the Prequel Trilogy was, at least it actually ATTEMPTED to be somewhat original in its storyline, even if that crashed and burned. And he apparently sold Disney the rights to Star Wars in the first place just so he'd make himself tax exempt if Romney got into office, which if you ask me was just disgustingly selfish and short-sighted.

And honestly, I wouldn't even call it "disneyfication" so much as, pardon my language, but bastardization (I'd argue that mess even started with Beauty and the Beast. Certainly the roots for how Maleficent was awful stemmed back to that film.). Disneyfication at least attempts to make things a bit more hope-filled rather than bleak (Heck, even the Legends Expanded Universe was far more hopeful than The Force Awakens was, which basically destroyed the happy ending of Return of the Jedi in the most cynical manner possible).

And to be honest, I can sort of understand why Disney would somewhat alter Alice in Wonderland, because it wasn't exactly meant for kids in the first place (it was political satire for Victorian-era England). He also completely altered The Jungle Book, and I could understand why he'd do so, considering that simply wasn't a child-friendly book.

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There is nothing canon breaking about The Force Awakens.

"My experience, just when you think you understand the Force, you find out how little you actually know."
- Ahsoka,Tano

As for BatB & Mulan being anti-male, that is quite an audacious claim. Belle ended up with a prince & Mulan had to dress as a men, fell for a man, and made some pretty awesome friends with some men. So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea these are anti-male.

Next you'll be claiming Aladdin was anti-male because the only good, male characters were a thief and a figment of Robin Williams' imagination.

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Nothing canon breaking? The entire REASON why the old Expanded Universe save for The Clone Wars TV series (the new one, not the old one) and the first six films ended up removed from canon was to make room for that film. Last I checked, that fit the definition of "canon-breaking", And for the record, Return of the Jedi was supposed to end on a happy note, where they defeated the Empire, and in the Special Editions anyways, they even had a worlds rejoice montage showing what is implied to be the entire galaxy celebrating the death of the Emperor. Not to mention Han Solo was supposed to basically cast aside his soundrel ways and become a person of good standing, and Luke was to found a new Jedi order. What did Force Awakens do? They completely crapped on that by having Luke go into hiding like a coward just because his nephew turned to the Dark Side (and what's more, unlike Yoda or Obi-Wan who also went into hiding, Luke STILL had plenty of allies to help him out, not to mention the New Republic still existed during that time. Oh, and Han Solo went back to being a smuggler and essentially divorced Leia simply because they did a bad job raising Ben Solo, or rather, Kylo Ren, and the New Republic itself basically came across in an even WORSE light than the Prequel Trilogy's depiction of the Old Republic or even the old Expanded Universe's depiction of the New Republic. They completely destroyed the happy ending of Return of the Jedi, and destroyed a lot of the Expanded Universe, and for what? What is essentially a plagiarized remake of A New Hope with some elements of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi spattered here and there?

As far as BatB and Mulan, in case you have neglected to notice, most of the men are painted in a pretty bad light in the former. Even with Belle getting together with the Prince, that was only AFTER Belle essentially emasculatized him. Let me give a list of all the named males in the film. There's Gaston, LeFou, Maurice, the Beast, Lumiere, Cogsworth, and Chip. Of them, only Chip is even remotely decently characterized, being a typical child. The other characters are, in order, a possessive dumb muscle with some instances of being cunning, a dim-witted sidekick to the aforementioned lout, a man who's sanity is questionable at best and needed to be rescued by his own daughter twice DESPITE his trying to rescue her from the Beast's clutches, a raging monster in the first act who's first step towards redemption besides saving Belle was essentially losing an argument to her despite the fact that he had the better logic in that blame game (Belle broke into the West Wing deliberately despite clearly being told not to by the Beast and his servants, so the whole mess was ultimately largely her fault) and in the second act became so dependent on Belle that he wasn't even willing to fight back against Gaston until Belle was physically nearby, an unrepentant womanizer, and a grouch, in that order. And don't even get me started on the rest of the villagers. In other words, the majority of the men in the film were not painted in a very positive light, either being monsters in the literal or figurative sense, or otherwise goofballs. In fact, besides Chip, the only male character who is depicted in even a slightly flattering light was that bookstore owner who barely even had many lines. And it's not just males that were demonized. Even the likes of those blonde triplets were depicted in a very bad light largely because unlike Belle, they DID implicitly think marriage was a good thing (they were called the Bimbettes, and yet they weren't shown doing anything that would even remotely qualify as bimbo behavior beyond crushing on Gaston [Ariel, Aurora, and Snow White crushed on guys, and last I checked, they weren't bimbos, and in fact, they waited until marriage], yet the featherduster maid was hinted to be a bit promiscuous and she wasn't even treated badly in the narrative).

And Mulan? Okay, I'll agree with you that compared to Beauty and the Beast and especially Maleficent, it's more male-friendly, but a lot of the guys weren't exactly depicted in a very good light, largely being idiots among the good guys, and apparently, they only succeeded in infiltrating the castle by... what, having them cross-dress?

Linda Woolverton made clear with both BATB and the Maleficent movie that she was very much influenced by the 1970s Feminist movement, and last I checked, that movement WAS misandric, male-hating, in other words.

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Just because you don't like it misinterpret what they've done to the characters does not make somethinh canon-breakingm. The EU was one big *beep* & Disney needed to earn goodwill and judging by the receptiom it knew how to do that.

Belle emasculated Beast? You lost all credibility after with that statement alone. I seem to recall him saving her from the wolves & fighting like a man against Gaston. If you think the decision to show mercy is emasculating, then you have a lot of make protagonists that were emasculated.

As for Mulan, it's only cross-dressing because companies know it's easier to sell by separating its products by specific denographics, specifically gender in this case. And sure they dressed traditionally like women to fool their enemy. But they used their soldier training, which they only received because they were men in war, to defeat Shan Yu's guards.

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Just because you don't like it misinterpret what they've done to the characters does not make somethinh canon-breakingm. The EU was one big *beep* & Disney needed to earn goodwill and judging by the receptiom it knew how to do that.


But did they really need to retread A New Hope's plotline when doing The Force Awakens, even going as far as to have the characters regress in development back to that time period (possibly even WORSE in the case of Luke Skywalker, who just went into hiding just because his nephew got seduced by Snoke without even ATTEMPTING to fight back, even when he actually HAS friends he can depend on unlike Obi-Wan and Yoda)? And for the record, how is it misinterpretation when the guys who made Star Wars were the ones who allowed the EU to exist in the first place? If they allow for it to exist, it's canon, no ifs, ands or buts. If they really wanted to clear up any misinterpretations, they should have ended it from the get go. And for the record, I'm not a particularly big fan of the old EU anyways, not really caring one way or another about it. But if they're going to bother decanonizing it to make room for a film, they had better do a dang good job with it, and unfortunately, making it such a rip-off of A New Hope in terms of plotline to such an extent that The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea seemed original is NOT a good way to make a good film or to justify the replacement of the EU. And here's another flaw with the film: The naming of the various groups, one in particular, all in a cynical attempt to force in a connection with the original trilogy. The "Resistance" is not by definition a Resistance group since it is not actually resisting against the guys in power (the New Republic) and if anything was backed by them to some extent. The only one who actually matches the definition of "the Resistance" is the First Order due to their actively fighting against the current government in power.

Belle emasculated Beast? You lost all credibility after with that statement alone. I seem to recall him saving her from the wolves & fighting like a man against Gaston. If you think the decision to show mercy is emasculating, then you have a lot of make protagonists that were emasculated.


First of all, the bit with the Wolves was BEFORE the emasculation began. And second of all, I'm referring to just before Belle arrived just in time to give Beast resolve, let alone before he stupidly showed Gaston mercy and got knifed as a result. Before then, Beast just told Mrs. Potts to just "let [the invaders] come [to kill him]", and pretty much didn't even ATTEMPT to fight back until Belle came back. Now, IF he actually WAS attempting to fight back, but lingering feelings had him gradually failing, that's one thing, and I can forgive that, but not fighting back at all, even under the pretense of self-preservation, unless Belle was physically present? Sorry, but that sounds closer to emasculation regarding controlling tempers that Belle taught him, if he literally needed her presence to even fight back against Gaston at all, let alone overwhelm him. I'm a pretty big fan of Beast, yet even I realize that's a particularly stupid way to justify him fighting back. Say what you will about the Beast before Belle met him, at least HE knew how to defend himself back then even if he DID have a particularly bad control of his temper. Lastly, I watched the film as a kid, multiple times, I have a near-eidetic memory, and I definitely pay VERY close attention to details, and I've even read up on development notes. Do you really think I would misinterpret something like that?

As for Mulan, it's only cross-dressing because companies know it's easier to sell by separating its products by specific denographics, specifically gender in this case. And sure they dressed traditionally like women to fool their enemy. But they used their soldier training, which they only received because they were men in war, to defeat Shan Yu's guards.


Yeah, and the only reason they bothered doing that was when they tried to ram the door, which the film depicted as stupid. They could have easily gotten in WITHOUT needing to cross-dress. In fact, their soldier training can have them shimmy up the pillars just from the necessary materials, not needing concubine outfits at all.

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Summary of your first two points: Having emotions is emasculating or regression.

Without Belle, Beast had no hope of turning human. So, he had no reason for self preservation. Would you really want to remain in that form until you died?

It's a misinterpretation because you think Luke is being a ciward rather than someone who has had his world turned upside down by his own actions.


Finally, the Huns are physically stronger and catching them unawares was the best bet. That would not have happened given their entry point had they remained dressed as men.

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Summary of your first two points: Having emotions is emasculating or regression.


Way to misread what I said. It's not simply that he had emotions (for the record, even BEFORE he met Belle, let alone made the effort to change for her, he clearly had emotions, like doubts that he'd ever get her love, despair, and anger. Last I checked, those ARE emotions). It's the fact that he doesn't even attempt to fight back against Gaston until Belle actually return. Don't forget, in The Little Mermaid, Ursula abducted Ariel. Did Eric spend his time moping about how he lost his chance at love? No! He pursued Ursula, saved Ariel's butt, among other things.

Without Belle, Beast had no hope of turning human. So, he had no reason for self preservation. Would you really want to remain in that form until you died?


He'd at least make an effort to try and stop Gaston. For example, Terra Branford from Final Fantasy VI had struggled with the concept of Love, and while she did fail the first time in stopping a monster in Mobilz due largely to that struggle, she at least attempted to fight it off to defend the children in Mobilz, which is a lot more than what Beast did with Gaston. I would, if for no other reason than to ensure that not only me, but my servants, heck, even my own friends aren't hurt rather than merely moping and being borderline suicidal that the one who has a chance to break the spell is not coming back.

It's a misinterpretation because you think Luke is being a ciward rather than someone who has had his world turned upside down by his own actions.


No, not a misinterpretation. The Jedi during Revenge of the Sith also had their world turned upside down, largely from their own actions as well, yet they at least actually ATTEMPTED to set things right by killing Darth Vader and Palpatine outright, and only fled when they weren't able to kill Palpatine. Not to mention by that time, the Old Republic was GONE, replaced by the Galactic Empire, and they barely had anyone they could turn towards (Padme ended up dead, most of the Jedi were dead, and while they did have Bail Organa as an ally, he needed to still pose as an ally to the Empire until the time came to overthrow Palpatine). Luke, on the other hand, still had Leia, Han, and pretty much the New Republic on his side, so there was no real reason to go into hiding just because his own nephew turned to the dark side and wiped out his fledgling Jedi Order. He would have fought back, specifically because it was his responsibility. And there was absolutely NO mention of him even ATTEMPTING to fight back against Snoke in response.

Finally, the Huns are physically stronger and catching them unawares was the best bet. That would not have happened given their entry point had they remained dressed as men.


I know of a few special forces groups who managed to pull off infiltration methods to take out stronger enemies that DIDN'T involve cross-dressing. And besides, Chien Po was definitely the largest of the group, and based on the fact that he essentially acted as an anchor for the group and single-handedly saved their troop from going over the cliff, I'd say that Chien Po at least could handle the Huns to a great degree. Even if they needed to disguise themselves, just have them ambush some Huns on guard duty, knock them out, steal their outfits, and pose as soldiers to get through, and once the Huns have lowered their guard, take them out. That would have worked all the same. There was no real need to cross-dress.

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-So unless Beast is feeling anger or despair and/or not acting in a way you like, it's emasculating. Got it.

Eric wasn't cursed to be a beast forever and there's still fun things he could do with the top half of Ariel.


-The Jedi in ROTS at least had an organization that was originally supporting them. Luke lost that.


-You're seriously trying to compare modern special forces to a Disney cartoon? Not to mention, the path they took made it impossible to completely get a jump on the huns.

And why is it cross-dressing anyway? You do realize the only reason it's "cross-dressing" is because of a few ridiculously arbitrary rules about how genders should dressed. Seriously, a reprise of "I'll Make a Man Out of You" is playing as the climb the columns and is symbolic not of emasculation but how one should not feel emasculated simply because they do something that isn't coded as masculine.

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-So unless Beast is feeling anger or despair and/or not acting in a way you like, it's emasculating. Got it.


No, it's that he doesn't even ATTEMPT to defend himself against Gaston at all until Belle arrives. I know if I had been in Beast's position, even if I knew it didn't truly matter if I regained my human form and felt some despair about it, I'd STILL do whatever I can to ensure my friends at least were spared from the mob, even if it means fighting against Gaston and the mob myself.

-The Jedi in ROTS at least had an organization that was originally supporting them. Luke lost that.


Luke didn't even LOSE an organization supporting the Jedi (The New Republic still exists by the time he went into hiding, not to mention Leia and Han Solo clearly still supported him as did the Resistance). The Jedi in ROTS, however, DID lose one in the form of the Old Republic (remember, not only did most of the Jedi get wiped out by Clone Troopers via Order 66, but public opinion swayed against them thanks to Palpatine, and the Old Republic itself became the Galactic Empire as well, meaning they LITERALLY lost the organization that backed them as well as figuratively. The only people who even REMOTELY supported the Jedi afterwards were Bail Organa, Tarfull, Chewbacca, and Padme Amidala, and by the time of the end of the film, one of them was dead, so there's even less).

-You're seriously trying to compare modern special forces to a Disney cartoon? Not to mention, the path they took made it impossible to completely get a jump on the huns.


Special Forces have existed for a long time before then, actually. In fact, Ninjas are considered one of the earliest usages of Special Forces. And if Ninjas could exist back then, similar techniques could exist with the time period Mulan took place in. And for the record, just because it's a Disney cartoon doesn't mean they can't include them in there. Remember, this was the same movie that featured quite a bit of war crimes at the hands of the Huns, including, I should add, the massacre of an entire village as well as Li Shang's Father's entire unit, and they don't even attempt to shy away from the brutality of it.

And why is it cross-dressing anyway? You do realize the only reason it's "cross-dressing" is because of a few ridiculously arbitrary rules about how genders should dressed. Seriously, a reprise of "I'll Make a Man Out of You" is playing as the climb the columns and is symbolic not of emasculation but how one should not feel emasculated simply because they do something that isn't coded as masculine.


Not according to Conservapedia. It makes clear that you aren't supposed to do stuff like that. And BTW, I utterly hated drag shows even back in High School where they did so as part of Pep Rallies.

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-BatB: What? You mean people are different? Shocker! Just because you would do something differently while in a certain emotional state does not mean everyone would do the same under tbat state. To find that emasculating is exactly what's wrong with our culture.

-Luke lost the organization HE founded. He's the only remotely formally trained Jedi. And to have that orfanization crumble before your eyes would be devastating to. That is clearly what I was referring to. I find your lack of empathy regarding Beast and this rather disturbing.

-In any case, the soldiers in Mulan are not special forces. Hell, they're barely soldiers. They're the equivalent of privates fresh out of boot camp suddenly thrust into the war with barely any preparation.

-Conservapedia? 
Don't get me wrong, I have no interest in wearing dresses or blouses or the like. They're just not my style nor would I wear pink, though I do loke the color on women. I'm a jeans & a t-shirt kind of guy. But, since you posted a laughable source, I shall post my own, with a link:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19780_5-gender-stereotypes-that-used-to-be-exact-opposite.html

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-BatB: What? You mean people are different? Shocker! Just because you would do something differently while in a certain emotional state does not mean everyone would do the same under tbat state. To find that emasculating is exactly what's wrong with our culture.


Actually, MOST people would behave that way. I've heard of various soldiers who do exactly that regarding missions even if they look hopeless. And let's not forget that there were plenty of heroes who did exactly that even in the face of despair, enough that this is in fact what defines heroism. Look at 300, Zero from Mega Man Zero 4, Jesus Christ, Batman, Superman, all of those guys had to face despair quite a few times, yet they actually STILL made an effort to do what was right even when the odds were very much against them, stop the enemy, no matter HOW much in despair they may have been in. Yes, people may have differences, but how they react to stuff is actually largely similar if not the same. Just because people are different doesn't mean they don't have anything the same. If they truly didn't, they would kill each other off until only one survives, IF one person survives.

-Luke lost the organization HE founded. He's the only remotely formally trained Jedi. And to have that orfanization crumble before your eyes would be devastating to. That is clearly what I was referring to. I find your lack of empathy regarding Beast and this rather disturbing.


You've got to be kidding me! Even if he was the only formally trained Jedi, he STILL would view it as his responsibility to stop Kylo Ren, instead of going into hiding like some sort of coward. That's in fact one of the biggest complaints against the Sequel Trilogy right now. Heck, Kazuhira Miller when he lost MSF actually went out of his way to avenge the organization that he helped found. I mean, come on! Obi Wan Kenobi and even Yoda at least attempted to fight Vader and Palpatine, respectively and do SOMETHING to stop the Sith. What did Luke do? Nothing, and this was despite the New Republic (which, BTW, he also helped found) still being around, not to mention still having quite a bit of allies in the form of Leia and Han, not to mention that so-called Resistance. I'm not being unempathetic, I'm being reasonable. And I do in fact have empathy. In fact, I actually have a lot of disgust, for example, for the atrocities Stalin and Hitler did, or the lives Sartre and de Beauvoir ruined with their sick sex games. And I might as well add, I actually had empathy for Joker in The Killing Joke.

-In any case, the soldiers in Mulan are not special forces. Hell, they're barely soldiers. They're the equivalent of privates fresh out of boot camp suddenly thrust into the war with barely any preparation.


Yeah, and yet they managed to put up a good fight against the Huns either way, and they survived an avalanche as well, something that wiped out most of Shan Yu's army.

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Ah, so princes are soldiers & we should only have characters the reflect stereotypes or the majority. I would prefer to have a variety of characters with a variety of emotions and representatoons. Just because people have the same emotions does not mean they woukd do the same.

Since when are you Luke Skywalker? Because that's what it would take for you to know what this current canon Luke would do as definitively as you're stating.

Shan yu's army was burried. The emperor's rag tag soldiers were not & they too used teamwork rather than solely physical strength.

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Ah, so princes are soldiers & we should only have characters the reflect stereotypes or the majority. I would prefer to have a variety of characters with a variety of emotions and representatoons. Just because people have the same emotions does not mean they woukd do the same.


No, I never said soldiers, just heroic, especially when Beast by that point was supposed to be one of the definite good guys. For the record, Batman wasn't a soldier, and neither was Superman. And not according to Psychology, that gives patterns.

Since when are you Luke Skywalker? Because that's what it would take for you to know what this current canon Luke would do as definitively as you're stating.


Ah, let's see, in the original trilogy (which ARE still part of the current canon, BTW), Luke had gone through quite a few instances of bad deals, like finding that his uncle and aunt had been torched, witnessing Obi-Wan sacrifice himself, sensing Leia and Han being tortured on Bespin, having his hand lopped off, learning Vader was his dad, and being electrocuted by the Emperor. If those didn't get Luke to go into hiding as a result, it certainly wouldn't with the Jedi Academy being slaughtered by his own nephew, ESPECIALLY when he still had Han and Leia with him, not to mention the New Republic which, I must remind you, he played more than a little role in founding even in the new canon.

To put a close to this, how about you pay a visit to the Force Awakens board, you'll see plenty of complaints about what had occurred with the movie, including character regressions.

Shan yu's army was burried. The emperor's rag tag soldiers were not & they too used teamwork rather than solely physical strength.


Yeah, and they can use teamwork to take out one Hun patrolling the area, then do it the next one until they get enough to disguise themselves.

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That you would compare Beast to a man who had years of training and to an alien who has aton of super powers speaks volumes. As I have better things to do than to argue about this, I'm done with this line of posts.

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Batman had to endure a whole LOT of personal tragedies, so yes, he DEFINITELY compares in this situation. Heck, Superman lost his entire planet as well, and there were plenty of instances where even HE entered despair yet still carried on.

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I agree with you.

I hate it! I hate it! I hate it!

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