The producers, I believe are waiting till Catholics in America are taking up arms to defend their church against the Obama administration and then this movie will seem much more relevant. Shouldn't be much longer.
sharePlease don't use a movie about my people and what we fought for for your right winged agenda.
shareAre your people believing Catholics obedient to the magisterium of the Catholic church? If not, then these are NOT your people.
shareI'm Mexican and catholic. I don't know what the hell you are ranting about. This is a historical film about the Cristero war. We fought for our way of life. You don't know me at all, puto. These people were peasants who were being killed for going to mass, priests were risking their lives tending to their flocks. Leave politics out of what MY people fought for. So shut the fk up.
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Absolutely right, if only people in the U.S. did stand for rights of religious people but they're too busy blaming each other over there.
I am going to encourage as many people as I can to watch this movie here in the U.K., might interest in the history of Mexico.
Question for you e_maldonado_f, what's the real story of the Mexico-U.S. border issues with regards to the drug gangs, things are getting pretty bad from what hear? Considering this film shows what good people do against hate can the Catholics do something about these drug gangs?
It will be released June 1st in the USA. April 20th is the premiere in Mexico City. And NO, this film is not pushing a right wing political agenda.
shareA couple of days ago I heard Andy Garcia interviewed on Michael Medved's radio program. Those two surely made it sound like the movie is pushing a right wing political agenda.
Btw, I did not know Andy Garcia was such a right winger.
So, pro-freedom is right wing? Well, then sign me up.
I guess that is an admission that left wing is anti-freedom. That sounds about right.
The movie is about religious freedom in the face of an oppressive, socialist government. In the case of Mexico, it came to wholesale slaughter (just as it has many, many times throughout the 20th century - Russia, Germany, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc., etc., etc.) The movie is, by nature, political. There is no way around it.
Does it have relevance to today's Health and Human Services mandate that the Catholic Church (and other employers) provide birth control, an action which is against their religion? Of course it does. All of these battles are part and parcel of the socialist left's persecution of religion and religious freedom should be defended in each and every instance (as it was there in Mexico).
Nobody is forcing people to have abortions or use contraception if they don't want. An insurance companies are more than happy to pay for it, as contraception is much cheaper than babies and prenatal care.
He's Cuban American. Nuff said.
shareSorry, but he makes an excellent point. Here is a film opening a week after the Catholic Church files suit against an administration trying to do the same thing the fascist Calles regime attempted more than 80 years ago.
Very relivant indeed.
The Catholic people would be better advised to take an interest in the current corruption scandal in the Vatican. The people running the Church are human beings with all the failings of human beings. Many are hypocrites. Many so-called 'good Catholics' practice birth control, and some would support abortion in certain cases, but they show up for Mass every Sunday and confess every Saturday afternoon.
I think if you check your New Testament, you will find that Jesus never said a word about birth control or abortion, both of which have been practiced for thousands of years, but the Catholic Church advocates the sacrifice of a mother's life during the childbirth process if there has to be a choice between her life and the child's even if that makes the child and any existing siblings motherless. It would also insist on the further violation of a molested woman or girl by forcing her to bear under the pain of sin the fruit of a rape. I am not an advocate of abortion as birth control, but if my sister or my young daughter were raped, I would want to know she has the choice. For the rest, let it be between the individual woman and her God. Lack of birth control means more children brought into the world to suffer. I don't believe a loving God (although I don't pretend to know His/Her mind)would want that. God did give us a brain to know when enough is enough and to control our actions.
I was raised Catholic, and once bought into all of it, but I grew up.
Organized religion is more about power, politics and divisiveness than it is about faith, which I still have. It just has nothing to do with the very human institution of religion, which I don't think Jesus would even recognize as having anything to do with Him. He wore homespun and remarked that "The Son of Man has no place to lay His head." What do you think he would say about muti-million dollar cathedrals and churches and the power, trappings, and privileges the leaders of religious organizations arrogate themselves in His name?
The men running the Catholic Church are polititians as much as anyone in our government, with all of the consequent corruptions that that institution entails.
I think there are good sincere people in all religions, but religion itself loses its way in rhetoric, and the 'I have the only truth' mentality.
That being said, the movie might be interesting. I remember from Catholic school the story of Father Miguel Pro who was executed during this period on trumped-up charges of participating in a plot to assassinate the President of Mexico, but in reality for continuing to practice his Catholic faith, which was banned during this time. I wonder if he is even mentioned in this film; From what I can see in the credits, he is not a character in it.
More like the fascist, autocratic Catholic Church (led by a former Hitler Youth member no less!) is trying to exert undue influence into workings of a democratic government.
share''...thing the fascist Calles regime...'''
HAHAHA! The Calles regime ''fascist''? You are a damn idiot. The Calles regime was leftists, but not even that extreme left (though it had some good socialists in the ranks), so they were certainly not fascist.
Oh, and you should not forget that the Catholic church actually has shameful history of supporting fascist and national conservative dictatorships in Latin America and Europe. If anything the rich, fat landowning clergy that whipped up the Cristeros were the ''fascists'' in Mexico.
If you hate Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make it your signature!
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It´ll be released in usa in june 1st,12
shareCan't wait to see this movie! I guess you could call me a "right winger" if that means that I'm against the discrimination of the child in the womb, and against the the government taking away religious freedom. Anyhow, this movie looks great, and I have a special attachment since my grandfather, great grandfather, and uncles fought as Cristeros in Jalisco. My grandfather's story is an especially interesting one, being that he escaped execution and was able to save my grandmother. Both my grandparents were devout Catholics, preferring the traditional Mass up to their death. It was very hard for them to talk about the Cristiada, since they had seen so much death and even had to go into hiding! My grandparents would say that there would come a time when good was seen as bad and bad seen as good. Everything the opposite they would say. I thought I'd never see the day, yet here we are!
shareChristofascists always love to take up arms against those who don't believe as they do.
Just like they did in the Middle Ages.
Yeah, I agree, "Kill all the 'Christo-Fascists!". Especially the Catholics. The ones who hate homosexuals so much that during the the nightmare years of the Eighties in New York City when there was NO cure for AIDS and it was a death sentence of unparalleled horror, the NUMBER ONE organization taking care of indigent dying AIDS patients were the Catholic relief organizations and the nuns. When others wouldn't even go near them.
shareOh please get over yourself!
The whole AIDS epidemic is being exasperated by Catholic Church fighting tooth and nail against condoms (which are, contrary to Catholic propaganda, very effective in preventing HIV infections).
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It is you who have your facts wrong. The Crusades were launched for all kinds of political reasons and the Crusaders committed atrocities even your idea of God wouldn't approve of. Read some unbiased history for a change.
Many Catholics don't listen to the Pope either, and birth control is a good thing even within marriage(and especially in Third World countries) if the couple cannot afford kids. It's better than bringing them into the world to suffer.
We all wish abstinence worked, but it doesn't. Many of the kids who make abstinence pledges no matter what religion usually don't keep them, or find some exceedingly creative ways of circumventing them. Expecting married couples to abstain unless they are trying for children is also very unrealistic.
You and the Catholic Church need to come into the 21st century. I also think that if the Church doesn't put its moral house in order and change its view and treatment of women, it may not survive into the 22nd century.
The OP is right, and you all need to listen to the CD by Patrick Madrid on this subject (it's through Lighthouse Catholic Media) and educate yourselves. Btw, Catholics who don't listen the Pope and aren't sticking together in the fight for our religious freedom against the Obama administration are only Catholic by name. Man up, woman up, and get with the program!
shareOr man up and woman up and think for yourself (especially women). I don't need to listen to more brainwashing. I heard enough of it in Catholic school and in church. I grew up. I don't need the hierarchy in Rome to tell me right from wrong. The Obama administration is right on this one. The church just doesn't want to have to pay up so that women can have the care under the employer provided insurance that is needed. Odd, though, that they have no problem with insurance paying for Viagra.
The Catholic Church is anti-woman.
The Catholic Church is anti-woman? The Catholic Church respects women more than they do men. If you've ever read what the Church writes on any of this you would know that. The Church says Mary was the greatest human that ever lived. Birth Control harms women and steals their dignity by turning them into a object of lust and pleasure, not to mention nullifies their greatest role: the ability to bring life into the world. All that's another topic though.
The fact that you think you know better than some of the greatest thinkers who have ever lived from generation to generation is nothing but foolish pride. The fact that you don't trust that the Holy Spirit guides his Church in the way of faith and morals is nothing but your lack of faith.
Nothing could be more anti-woman than the Catholic church. Mary is held up as a role model because she was preturnaturally submissive,as the church would like all female humans to be. Besides, I'll bet that simple Jewish woman of whom the bible really says very little would never recognize herself in the iconography that the church has given her. Sorry, don't buy it. There's too much life in the world that no one supports and those young lives suffer in their youth and for all of their lives. Birth control could prevent much of the suffering. Being brood mares does not elevate or dignify women. Any female animal can do it, and there is precious little dignity in the process. And pray tell me, what is taking Viagra (which the church has no problem with their employee insurance paying for) doing to men besides causing them to look at women as objects of lust and pleasure?
The greatest thinkers who have ever lived are still human beings just like me; their brains functioned just as mine does. I can think for myself. I don't need other flawed human beings telling me how to think. And, no, I don't believe Christ would recognize organized religion which is so divisive, hypocritical, and fixated on temporal power, trappings, and money as having anything to do with Him or His teachings. I certainly don't think the Catholic Church is functioning under His guidance. It lost that long ago in pursuit of worldly power. It's more of a corporation than anything else, but it does need to be supported finacially by people who still buy into the fiction.
"Nothing could be more anti-woman than the Catholic church."
Sorry, but this proves you haven't read anything the Church has ever put out on women. Pleases supply some examples of how the Church is anti-woman.
"Mary is held up as a role model because she was preturnaturally submissive,as the church would like all female humans to be."
Mary is a role model because she was perfect. She was a leader. She was God's mother. She is now Queen of Heaven and Earth. She was submissive to God, yes, why shouldn't anyone be, assuming you believe in God
"I'll bet that simple Jewish woman of whom the bible really says very little would never recognize herself in the iconography that the church has given her. Sorry, don't buy it."
She is a humble, loving and nurturing mother, but she is now also a powerful Queen who will crush the head of the serpent. I agree she was a simple woman (God is utter simplicity at His core), but once you give birth to the Son of God, your life is no longer simple.
"There's too much life in the world that no one supports and those young lives suffer in their youth and for all of their lives. Birth control could prevent much of the suffering."
This is a twisted way of thinking. The solution to suffering children is the healthy institution of family, not ensuring that they don't exist. As the saying goes, I've noticed all the people who support abortion have already been born.
"Being brood mares does not elevate or dignify women. Any female animal can do it, and there is precious little dignity in the process. And pray tell me, what is taking Viagra (which the church has no problem with their employee insurance paying for) doing to men besides causing them to look at women as objects of lust and pleasure?"
This is also twisted. If you see no dignity or beauty, or purpose in motherhood then I feel very sad for you. Please don't compare yourself to a reasonless animal; common sense tells you that the way you would mother a child does not compare. As for Viagra, it is intended for men who have erectile dysfunction. What is wrong with a medicine that allows men to have sex with their wives? Sex in a loving relationship is not lust, nor does it ever objectify. Pleasure only bad when it is the singular end to a means.
"The greatest thinkers who have ever lived are still human beings just like me; their brains functioned just as mine does. I can think for myself. I don't need other flawed human beings telling me how to think. And, no, I don't believe Christ would recognize organized religion which is so divisive, hypocritical, and fixated on temporal power, trappings, and money as having anything to do with Him or His teachings."
God wants what is best for you, and his Church does to. To say the Church is holy is not to say that it isn't filled with sinners. God has proven, from many of the prophets, his apostles, and saints, that He loves to work through weak and sinful channels. The Church has corrupt members, its is weak and sinful, but God bestows grace through its channels, the Sacraments.
"I certainly don't think the Catholic Church is functioning under His guidance. It lost that long ago in pursuit of worldly power. It's more of a corporation than anything else, but it does need to be supported financially by people who still buy into the fiction."
Christ said that the "gates of hell would not prevail against" his Church. If the Church fell off the track then that makes Him a liar. Church doctrine on faith and morals, even when She had corrupt Popes, has never changed. Members of the Church may do bad things and disobey the teachings, but that doesn't change, or dirty what the Church teaches. And if you believe that Christ is God, which if I'm not mistaken you do, then you shouldn't call Church teaching fiction.
By the way, when women are fertile they produce pheromones that increase testosterone in men when they are near. Contraceptives kill the feminine pheromones, so therefore women don't get the natural attention from men that they would otherwise. Because of this, many women begin to dress immodestly (to put it nicely), feeling as if that's the only way they to attract the opposite sex. Rather one dresses immodestly or not, contraceptives take away what is a natural part of your womanhood, and thus your dignity starts to diminish. Things like this that are completely aside from the issue of abortifacients etc are in the mind of the Church and go into why they tell you "how to think," as you put it. There is much wisdom in obedience to the Church.
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Thank you, S. Valentine! We're being invaded on the other board, ha! They come in waves.
shareI think you are probably a very nice person, and I will try to be nice, too, but nothing you say is anything I have not heard before; it is the party line. Remember, I was once Catholic, and I once took it as seriously as you do, and did fully as much reading. I left the church because I could not be a 'cafeteria Catholic' as many are, and I have some serious differences with the 'party line'. All we think we know about what Christ supposedly said is taken from a book vetted by another group of old, mainly white men.
I don't compare myself to a reasonless animal. I have never had children and I am celibate by choice. In my opinion, people do breed mindlessly like animals (especially these days) and will continue to do so, many heedless of the lives they bring into the world. Birth control would at least prevent innocent children being brought into the world to suffer, since you can't stop the mindless breeding. Many animals are more nurturing to their young than many of the mindless breeders.
If you think Viagra only prompts men to have sex with their wives (many of whom are tired from endless childbearing -these are good Catholics, remember, and should never say "not tonight, dear, I have a headache."- and wish their husbands were, too.), you are very naive. Viagra takes away from 'what is a natural part' of manhood, the courage to realize that when your reproductive equipment isn't functioning any longer, it's nature's (or God's) way of telling you you don't need it anymore; its purpose has been fulfilled. A couple can be very close and loving even without sex. Many older women would probably prefer it that way. The Church (and all organized religion) is run by fallible people who look out for their own interests. In the case of the Catholic church it is run by VERY fallible MEN. It is in their interest to keep women submissive, and having children to grow up and continue to support their institution. So they keep promoting the party line, saying the same things over and over again in different ways to confuse the sheep who regard their every pronouncement with awe.
If Christ can work through 'weak and sinful' channels, He can work through normal people like me. After all, the great thinkers were once just normal people. I have my own perfectly good brain.
Christ Himself never said a word about birth control or abortion, although I have to say, I abhor abortion execpt in cases of rape and incest. The church's ban even in these cases, though, is yet another example of insensitivity to women and their welfare. Forcing a woman or girl to bear the child who is the fruit of a rape or incest is tantamount to violating her again. I believe she should have a choice, and would hope she would be made aware that whatever she chooses, she will have support.
A woman's body belongs to no one but herself, and for awhile, the babies she carries and nurtures.
I am hoping the nuns who are now in danger of being whipped back into the fold, continue to defy the old mainly whilte men in the Vatican. I have a lot of respect for nuns. They are in the front lines and see up close the results of blindly obeying the pronouncements of these men. I was taught by some very good nuns. I am in their corner.
I have a friend who found his way back to the church after many years away. He has asked me about my reasons for leaving, and he has voiced a few doubts of his own. I refuse to discuss them with him, and have told him to talk to his parish priest (he did and told me the priest gave only evasive answers) because I truly believe he needs the anchor in his life that the church provides, even if in my opinion it is a fallible anchor. He was born in another country, is far from family, and does not make new friends easily. Far be it from me to take from anyone whatever spiritual comfort can be found in life which is indeed a 'vale of tears'.
I am only debating with you because I am well aware you are entrenched and nothing I can say will change your mind. I am entrenched in my position, too, and nothing you can say will change mine.
"I could not be a 'cafeteria Catholic' as many are"
Respectable, in a way, because many Catholics do more to harm the Church than good with their liberal theologies that go against its teachings. I would suggest digging deeper into what the Church teaches and why. Not a guarantee you will agree, but I've found the more I read, Vatican II documents, encyclicals, etc, the more difficult it is to deny the truth in the words. You might not always want to follow the truth or like it, but the reasoning is flawless.
"All we think we know about what Christ supposedly said is taken from a book vetted by another group of old, mainly white men."
There is much more than the words in the Bible. Our tradition on Jesus was around 300 years before the Bible was produced, and is just as much a part of our faith as is Scripture. The Bible was written my middle eastern men, maybe some women (not that the color of their skin matters), who were all inspired by the Holy Spirit.
"Birth control would at least prevent innocent children being brought into the world to suffer."
Already replied to this in the last one.
"If you think Viagra only prompts men to have sex with their wives (many of whom are tired from endless childbearing -these are good Catholics, remember, and should never say "not tonight, dear, I have a headache."- and wish their husbands were, too.), you are very naive. Viagra takes away from 'what is a natural part' of manhood, the courage to realize that when your reproductive equipment isn't functioning any longer, it's nature's (or God's) way of telling you you don't need it anymore; its purpose has been fulfilled. A couple can be very close and loving even without sex. Many older women would probably prefer it that way."
I didn't say people don't abuse Viagra. I know 20 yr. olds who have taken it just to get a "raging boner." Many men get erectile dysfunction before reproduction can no longer take place. I think it's extremely hypocritical to argue that we should take note of God given natural processes in the body that cause us to stop reproducing, but argue against the processes that God gave us to cause reproduction. The Church would condemn using Viagra for inappropriate ends.
Let's not forget that God can cause pregnancy in whomever he pleases, despite their age (Sarah and Elizabeth). A woman is allowed to say "not tonight," and so is a man. A couple doesn't have to have sex if they've reached that point in their relationship where they don't want to. Viagra is for the people who do. Nothing sinful about it. Contraception prevents children, and also it is...
The leading cause of the worst type of breast cancer in women. It manipulates the body into thinking its pregnant, and therefore no eggs are released. Cells in the breast begin to form as they do when one is pregnant in order to produce milk, and when fully developed, these cells are the strongest and most unlikely to turn into cancer. But with contraception these cells are only half developed, and left open to carcinogens which turn them into the most vulnerable and harmful cells concerning potential cancer.
"The Church (and all organized religion) is run by fallible people who look out for their own interests. In the case of the Catholic church it is run by VERY fallible MEN."
Responded to this as well. You don't have to agree with my answer, but let's not allow this to descend into repetition.
"It is in their interest to keep women submissive, and having children to grow up and continue to support their institution. So they keep promoting the party line, saying the same things over and over again in different ways to confuse the sheep who regard their every pronouncement with awe."
I couldn't consider this to be further from the truth or more ridiculous. It is in their interest to lead souls into heaven, period.
"If Christ can work through 'weak and sinful' channels, He can work through normal people like me. After all, the great thinkers were once just normal people. I have my own perfectly good brain."
This is true. The difference is though, Christ did not give you the keys of authority to bind and loose moral and faith based teachings of the Church, he gave them to St. Peter. Just a normal and sinful guy that Christ chose to play a role. You have a role to play too, as we all do. Key is to finding out what it is, because it is the thing that will make you happiest in life.
"Christ Himself never said a word about birth control or abortion, although I have to say, I abhor abortion execpt..."
I'm glad you're somewhat pro-life. Christ is the same God of the Old Testament, in which the Lord strikes a man dead for wasting his seed. Check out these verses:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished
Exodus 21:22
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psalms 139:13
And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
Isaiah 49:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5
"in cases of rape and incest...Forcing a woman or girl to bear the child who is the fruit of a rape or incest is tantamount to violating her again. I believe she should have a choice. A woman's body belongs to no one but herself."
Let's round up some children of rape victims and murder them, then, shall we? They don't deserve to be here because it brings back bad memories.
It is true a woman's body belongs only to her, but the child within her is a developing body attached to, but separate from her own. We do not "own" our children. It is comparable to a conjoined twin. One body is attached to and dependent on the other, but separate. One twin cannot choose to detach the body without the others consent, or choose to destroy his or her counterpart.
"I am hoping the nuns who are now in danger of being whipped back into the fold, continue to defy the old mainly white men in the Vatican. I have a lot of respect for nuns. They are in the front lines and see up close the results of blindly obeying the pronouncements of these men. I was taught by some very good nuns. I am in their corner."
You should check out, "Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism." All about the evil that infiltrated many convents. It's nothing new. From St. Catherine of Siena's terrible ordeal to the story behind Our Lady of Good Success, there have always been those who break their vows of obedience.
You also seem to have racial hang ups. I recently heard Deacon Harold, "the dynamic deacon," speak at a conference. He said he used to think of the pope like, "What does this old white dude in a beanie have to tell me about how I should live my life?" Here is his website: http://dynamicdeacon.com/
"I have a friend who found his way back to the church after many years away...told him to talk to his parish priest (he did and told me the priest gave only evasive answers)...Far be it from me to take from anyone whatever spiritual comfort can be found in life which is indeed a 'vale of tears'."
Respectable. He needs to find the right priest though, not just any priest. And of course pray.
"I am only debating with you because I am well aware you are entrenched and nothing I can say will change your mind. I am entrenched in my position, too, and nothing you can say will change mine."
I know I'm not the Holy Spirit, I can't change your mind. I can pray for you though and hope for the best.
The best you hope for me is not the best for me. Everything you've said just continues to repeat the party line.None of it validly answers my doubts or even the doubts of my friend. No priest can answer these doubts freely. Whatever he privately thinks, he must continue to prate the party line as you have if he wants to remain in good standing with the organization that is, after all, his livelihood.
Anyone can interpret scripture to back up any position. It's a great alternative to reasoning for onesself. "The Devil can cite scripture to his purpose." Scripture, in any case, was written by people of that time writing with the attitudes of that time. I don't see them as written under divine inspiration "Be fruitful and multiply" was good advice for an empty world that needed populating. It's not very good advice now in our overpopulated world that is bursting at the seams with people it is losing the capacity to feed.
As for tradition, I don't trust it any more than tales told around an Iron Age campfire as as Homer's stories of the Trojan War were told. I don't know if you've ever played that game where a story is started at one end of a room full of people and repeated till it gets to the other end, by which time it has changed considerably.
Racist hangups? No. I am of the white race,but it is a fact that there is much more suffering in third world countries where the population is not white. Birth control would be very helpful in ending some of that suffering. However, the hierarchy of the church is overwhelmingly both white, male,and old, and out of touch with reality, which god, if he exists, gave us the capacity to recognize.
The evil that has invaded convents in the USA is the 'evil' of refusing to continue to blindly accept the precepts that that these old men continue to promulgate.Blind obedience is not a virtue. Hitler made good use of it, however.
If there is rage, the nuns are entitled to it. Any group of oppressed people will eventually rebel.
If you argue that Viagra is a god-given process to enable reproduction, I counter that birth control as a god-given process to prevent conception when there is no capability to nurture a child. If your god is a god of love, he would not wish innocent children to suffer. He has given us the brains to develop things like your Viagra and birth control, and hopefully, the prudence to recognize when they are useful. Unfortunately in this culture sexual ability is seen as a way of remaining forever young. Many of the men using it don't give a hoot about reproducing. As far as side effects are concerned, it remains to be seen what the long term side effects of all of these erectile dysfunction drugs will be. The undignified lengths to which men will go to keep functioning are laughable. And no matter what the church condemns, you can't legislate human behaviour.
Your 'let's round up the children of rape victims and murder them, shall we?', is just more rhetorical blather. When you or perhaps your 12-year-old daughter have endured the forced invasion of your or her body and been forced to bear the child of that rape, we'll talk. I don't argue for abortion in these cases, only that the woman or girl be given the choice and supported whatever she decides. It's easy to buy into an abstraction, not so easy when the situation happens in real life to you or someone you love.
As for being pro-life, not particularly. I think people or their families/representatives should be able to refuse life-sustaining treatment and let nature take its course when their (or their relative's) lives have lost the ability to affect the world around them and all dignity (as in the case of irreversible coma) is lost. Simply breathing does not bestow dignity when one's most private functions have to be taken care of by someone else who might abuse or neglect the patient in his/her helplessness for the unpleasant tasks they are forced to perform.
The afterlife? I'm pretty sure (I qualify that because the only thing I am sure of is that I am absolutely sure of nothing) there isn't one outside of the memories left behind in the minds of the relatives and friends, and after awhile even those fade. I think religion (as separate from spirituality) is for those human minds that cannot accept the idea of their own extinction. The afterlife as envisioned by man is simply a continuation of the pettiness and vengeance of human nature; the god of the Old Testament is not one I would even want to know, much less spend eternity with. Even the heaven of their imagination sounds boring. I've always been struck by the prayer "Eternal rest grant unto him/her..." recited at funerals. Eternal rest???? Hardly a thing to look forward to for eternity. I always used to say "Eternal life...", since that was what we were taught was our heavenly reward.
Sometimes I think the human race is a failed experiment attempted by extra-terrestrial aliens we've yet to meet.
"The best you hope for me is not the best for me. Everything you've said just continues to repeat the party line. None of it validly answers my doubts or even the doubts of my friend. No priest can answer these doubts freely. Whatever he privately thinks, he must continue to prate the party line as you have if he wants to remain in good standing with the organization that is, after all, his livelihood."
I gotta say, referring to Church teaching as the "party line" doesn't do much for your steadily diminishing credibility. The best I hope for you is heaven, so yes, it is the best for you. I'm sure you think I'm just saying what I was taught in Catholic school, but no, I never cared about that. Didn't listen to it. I found out from living and hitting rock bottom time and time again that Christ is the answer. When I came to know Him he led me and strengthened me through the Sacraments and great priests. The more I practice the faith the more I learn from experience. The more I study (I'm a theology major) the more reason backs up what I believe.
"Anyone can interpret scripture to back up any position."
Which is why the Holy Spirit gives the interpretation through the authority of the Church. Without authority people can take it to mean whatever they want (Protestant Reformation).
"The Devil can cite scripture to his purpose."
Yes, but it's a false interpretation, out of context, and always twisted.
"Scripture, in any case, was written by people of that time writing with the attitudes of that time. I don't see them as written under divine inspiration."
If you honestly think fisherman and random men of the time could write the most profound and rich texts in the history of man?
"It's not very good advice now in our overpopulated world that is bursting at the seams with people it is losing the capacity to feed."
You need to stop eating everything the media feeds you. populationisamyth.com/
"As for tradition, I don't trust it any more than tales told around an Iron Age campfire as as Homer's stories of the Trojan War were told. I don't know if you've ever played that game where a story is started at one end of a room full of people and repeated till it gets to the other end, by which time it has changed considerably."
You don't believe in the Holy Spirit, that's all you need to say.
"Racist hangups? No. I am of the white race, but it is a fact that there is much more suffering in third world countries where the population is not white. Birth control would be very helpful in ending some of that suffering."
Birth Control is very helpful in ensuring people do not come to exist. It does nothing to end suffering.
"However, the hierarchy of the church is overwhelmingly both white, male,and old, and out of touch with reality"
Who cares what color they are? Yes, the apostles were male and the bishops are their successors. And how are they out of touch with reality? They are masters of it.
"Any group of oppressed people will eventually rebel."
No one forced them to become nuns. They claimed to love the Church and took vows of obedience to Her. Who the hell is oppressing them?
"If you argue that Viagra is a god-given process to enable reproduction, I counter that birth control as a god-given process to prevent conception when there is no capability to nurture a child."
Did I say Viagra was God-given? I said there is nothing wrong with it for reasons already explained. How you've arrived at this from the original issue I cannot know.
"If your god is a god of love, he would not wish innocent children to suffer."
I guess you want him to take away our freewill and stop people who cause suffering?
"Many of the men using it don't give a hoot about reproducing."
Good for them; they'll have to answer for their sins like everyone else. That doesn't reflect on the drug, just like sinners in the Church doesn't reflect on her teachings.
"As far as side effects are concerned, it remains to be seen what the long term side effects of all of these erectile dysfunction drugs will be."
You're getting way off track from the original points of our discussion.
"The undignified lengths to which men will go to keep functioning are laughable."
That's because you're a feminists, and you all laugh at things that aren't actually happening to cover up your misery.
"Your 'let's round up the children of rape victims and murder them, shall we?', is just more rhetorical blather."
It's right in line with your solution.
"I don't argue for abortion in these cases, only that the woman or girl be given the choice and supported whatever she decides."
It would actually be more just to wait until the child grows old enough to decide if they want to live or not, then if they say no, kill them. At least you wouldn't be doing it before they have a chance to defend themselves.
"It's easy to buy into an abstraction, not so easy when the situation happens in real life to you or someone you love."
Yeah, but if you have conviction that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder then the decision is already made. Abortion is the worst kind of selfishness.
"Simply breathing does not bestow dignity when one's most private functions have to be taken care of by someone else who might abuse or neglect the patient in his/her helplessness for the unpleasant tasks they are forced to perform."
Dignity is not detachable from a person no matter what state they're in. It's as much a part of you as simply breathing.
"The afterlife? I'm pretty sure (I qualify that because the only thing I am sure of is that I am absolutely sure of nothing) there isn't one"
Well that explains alot.
"I think religion (as separate from spirituality) is for those human minds that cannot accept the idea of their own extinction."
Or maybe it's just for those who see how absurd it is to say that we came from nothing, or that we came from something random that came from nothing, and then boom, human life.
"the god of the Old Testament is not one I would even want to know, much less spend eternity with."
Doubt you've read the Bible. God of the OT is all about love and mercy. He even says love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus in the NT has much to say about hell and condemnation. A whole lot.
"Even the heaven of their imagination sounds boring."
Yeah, eternal happiness would be terrible. Torture for eternity would be much more exciting. Get real.
"Sometimes I think the human race is a failed experiment attempted by extra-terrestrial aliens we've yet to meet."
I don't doubt it.
Sorry, but 'party line' describes people blandly repeating the same line over and over again without ever saying anything different, just parroting what the hierarchy promotes. Communism worked pretty much the same way.
I'm glad your religion is a comfort to you and that you can swallow all of it. I am probably a lot older than you, and my experiences in life have led me to different conclusions.
I am indeed a feminist, and the church is threatened by women breaking out of the mold that the male hierarchy has forced them into. Blind obedience is never a good thing. I am sure some of Hitler's generals when they took their oaths fully intended to remain loyal until those with consciences realized they could not continue to support his policies. The nuns who are now standing up to the Vatican probably feel much the same way.
As for the laughable things men do to maintain their so-called virility, I have for the last couple of years been subjected to seeing such garbage in TV commercials (often in prime time), and gift catalogues (even those selling household products) that formerly did not have such merchandise, so oh, yes, it is definitely happening. You must lead a sheltered life. I have to rip and shred pages as soon as the catalogue arrives.
I never look at head-in-the-sand conservative websites. Looking around at the changing climate and the hunger, famine, and poverty in the world is enough to prove to me that the human race needs to 'increase and multiply' at a slower rate.
I have probably read as much as, if not more, of the bible than you have. The God of the Old Testament was indeed jealous, bloodthirsty, and vengeful. I can think of many instances, but I don't have the time to cite them. Really READ the Old Testament. There was little difference in the demand for sacrifice between Yahweh and Ba'al. Jesus was more about love and mercy. It is in the New Testament that the admonition is repeated again and again.
The bishops and cardinals masters of reality??? Now your credibility is in question: they have not only repeatedly shielded perderasts (and yes, I am well aware that the problem is not only a Catholic one; pederasts are opportunists wherever there are young people; I don't believe allowing priests to marry would solve the problem, because married men in all walks of life commit this crime), but most of them live like princes and seldom come in contact with poverty and hunger. Most of them are not in contact with reality. More bishops and cardinals from third world countries where it is harder to avoid seeing the consequences of overpopulation might be able to bring the church into the 21st century, at least where birth control is concerned. The Catholic Church in California has just purchased that monument to excess, the Chrystal Cathedral at a cost that could have fed and clothed thousands of people. Christ was a wandering preacher with 'nowhere to lay his head'. It's hard to believe that if he had this amount of money, he would have spent it on a building that is a disgrace to his message.
As for abortion, as I said, I abhor it, except in the cases I have mentioned, and that as soon as the woman or girl learns she is pregnant as the result of rape or incest if that is what she chooses and she should be encouraged to make an early choice. To me a zygote is not a human being. I don't countenance late term abortion. That is the murder of a human being. But even that I struggle with if the life of the mother is at risk, especially if preserving the life of that infant would leave it and any existing siblings motherless. I am glad it is a choice I will never have to make. Mothers are not disposable, but babies are also precious. You are probably a man and have no idea how much violence carrying and bearing a child does to a woman's body. When it is done because of love, the woman does it gladly. There is no love in a rape,and no woman should have to endure the violence of such a childbirth unless it is her choice to do so. So, no, waiting for the child to grow up and decide whether or not it wants to live would not help the woman's psyche or prevent her body from being violated a second time, but after all, she is only a brood mare, and her fate is not important in the eyes of the church.
I believe you have to be conscious to posess dignity. There is no dignity to being in a state where one has no control over one's natural functions. Such a life has lost all meaning and purpose. I don't know anyone who would choose for themselves to continue to breathe under such conditions when the alternative of simply allowing nature to take its course when there is no hope for a return to consciousness would liberate the soul trapped in a helpless body and free up a hospital bed for someone who has a chance of recovery. Yes, I know there are miracles in some of these cases, but they are few and far between.
And I do think humble men can write profound texts without divine inspiration. The Jewish religion has a tradition in which men of their faith gather and discuss, dispute, and comment on scripture. They could also see what was going on around them and it would have affected their writings.
If God were to want everyone to do His will, yes, he would take away free will. The free will argument as the explanation for the evil in the world never made sense to me.
I mentioned the potential side effects of erectile dysfunction medications because you went to such pains to describe the side effects of birth control pills. Every medication we use has some type of side effects. The trick is to decide if what they will cure is worse than what they will cause.
I don't believe we came from nothing, but unlike all of you who claim to know the mind of your god, I don't presume to know how it happened. I do believe there was an intelligence behind our creation,(maybe it was those experimenting extra-terrestrials) but as with almost everything, I don't know. Wisdom is to admit how little one knows.
Eternal happiness does sound boring; one must be exposed to unhappiness to recognize happiness. The torture that your god would exact in the alternative shows him to be, as I said, imbued with the worst human qualities of cruelty, jealousy, and vengeance. No, thanks. The only God that makes sense to me has the qualities that human beings and their religions seem to be incapable of: boundless and unconditional love. Maybe someday I will find that God.
It has been interesting debating with you. I think it's time to quit; you're beginning to sound testy. I wish you well.
Thanks for your wish for heaven for me. If I get there, I hope it's not a heaven where I sit around feeling happy and smug that I'm there and not in the other place.
Peace be with you.
"Sorry, but 'party line' describes people blandly repeating the same line over and over again without ever saying anything different, just parroting what the hierarchy promotes."
Yes, which is why I explained that although it sounds like I'm "parroting," I'm speaking what I believe from my experience of having my life saved and changed by the faith. When you give your life to Christ, it's no coincidence you begin to proclaim the teachings of His Church.
"As for the laughable things men do to maintain their so-called virility...it is definitely happening."
Yes, and women do dumb things too. Men have been responsible for horrendous things, but also great things. Every male is not Homer Simpson, and every female is not Paris Hilton.
"You must lead a sheltered life."
I can honestly say my life has been the least sheltered of almost everyone I know. This led me to make many erroneous conclusions about life, but then I prayed to God that I could know Him (to make a long story short). Got a fire inside to read the Bible; read it cover to cover. I prayed it cover to cover, more accurately. Turned my philosophies and views upside down, but only because I was open to the Holy Spirit, praying for wisdom and against pride.
"Jesus was more about love and mercy."
This is just not the case. God of the OT talked about love and mercy, but people like to ignore it. Condemnation and hellfire are spoken about more by Jesus than anywhere in the Bible. He says that those who don't want him king will be brought before him and slayed. He talks of people being thrown to torturers, thrown in unquenchable fire, wailing and grinding and gnashing of teeth, locked in prisons, and more. If you need me to cite I will. I will also cite the Father talking about mercy, loving your neighbor, and forgiveness in the OT time and again. Actually, I'll go ahead and cite on example for you from two Gospels:
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
-MT 10:34-39
Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division...You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
LK 12:51-57
"I am well aware that the problem is not only a Catholic one; pederasts are opportunists wherever there are young people; I don't believe allowing priests to marry would solve the problem...More bishops and cardinals from third world countries...might be able to bring the church into the 21st century, at least where birth control is concerned."
I've already talked about how the Church is weak and sinful, but still holy and acting with the authority of the Holy Spirit. It is far from perfect, and wherever there are men there will be corruption. But "moving into the 21st century?" The Church's scholars and scientists are on top every new development in science and technology. The Vatican telescope is one of the most advanced in the world. Accepting Birth Control because modern women want to have sex without risk of giving birth is not going to happen, because>>the truth doesn't change with the passage of time!<< What's sinful will stay sinful until the end of time. God does not change.
"The Catholic Church in California has just purchased that monument to excess, the Chrystal Cathedral at a cost that could have fed and clothed thousands of people. Christ was a wandering preacher with 'nowhere to lay his head'. It's hard to believe that if he had this amount of money, he would have spent it on a building that is a disgrace to his message."
OK, real quick: Jesus is present inside the Catholic church buildings in the Eucharist (his presence in the consecrated host is symbolized by a red candle burning). In the Gospel story of the woman who broke the bottle of perfume and anointed Jesus' feet, Judas rebuked her because the bottle was expensive, equivalent to $30,000 dollars today. He said they could have used that money for the poor, but Jesus rebuked Judas, saying, "you will have the poor with you forever, but me only a short while." Point: We have Jesus in the Church in the Eucharist. There is no amount of extravagance too great to honor our Lord financially. Even in the OT God had ppl build the highly stylized arch of the covenant and awesome temples for his presence. Also, the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Schools, hospitals, shelters, you name it. Haiti is a recent fad, Catholic organizations have been there for decades.
"As for abortion, as I said, I abhor it, except in the cases I have mentioned, and that as soon as the woman or girl learns she is pregnant as the result of rape or incest if that is what she chooses and she should be encouraged to make an early choice. To me a zygote is not a human being."
Already responded to this and as to why life begins at contraception. If not, then when does life actually begin, and who decides? Does the soul swoop down and enter the body the moment the child's head breaches the womb? Or let me guess, we don't have souls in your view of things? I've experienced my soul exit my body, so I can guarantee you we do.
"You are probably a man and have no idea how much violence carrying and bearing a child does to a woman's body. When it is done because of love, the woman does it gladly. There is no love in a rape,and no woman should have to endure the violence of such a childbirth unless it is her choice to do so."
I've seen my mother deal with the pain of c-section, but of course learning is experience. Irrelevant if you believe life begins at conception. It's not the baby's fault the mother is raped and doesn't love it, it still has a right to life.
"So, no, waiting for the child to grow up and decide whether or not it wants to live would not help the woman's psyche or prevent her body from being violated a second time, but after all, she is only a brood mare, and her fate is not important in the eyes of the church."
No, her fate is equally important, just not more important than the child's. A woman can seek help and go to God for her psyche, abortion is final, and often causes just as much pain in women as anything you can dream up.
"If God were to want everyone to do His will, yes, he would take away free will. The free will argument as the explanation for the evil in the world never made sense to me."
God wants everyone to love him, because he is Love, and love desires relationship. Love cannot be forced, thus freewill. As for the problem of evil, here is something I typed up a while back:
1. God is infinite and utter simplicity; it is beyond our understanding.
2. His way is the only right way, because God is the Way…
3. Thus, God is Law. A natural law, in that he must be obeyed.
4. God is also Life (eternal)/the Source of life.
5. It follows, then, that anything contrary to the Way is a rejection of the Law (a sin), in so much as it is also a rejection of Life. Therefore, to reject God is to choose death (eternal).
6. If the rejection of a law produces no negative consequence, then there is no law, which (given the existence of God) is impossible (#3).
7. Without proper penalty for rejecting the Law, there is not proper justice, but just as Love trumps Wrath, Mercy takes precedence over Justice.
8. God is Mercy, and anything less than death in return for sin is the manifestation of this truth. Thus, suffering is an effect of mercy (#6).
9. The risk of freewill is that it implies choice. In order to love God, the creature must be able to choose not to.
10. Therefore, the potential for evil was necessary, but its existence is not.
C: Blessed in suffering the consequences of our sin, we must reject the original choice into which we were born, so that we may again, one day, reach our natural potential.
"you went to such pains to describe the side effects of birth control pills."
Yes, because the issue being discussed was women's dignity. The side effects I mentioned had to do with that. You're trying to compare birth control to Viagra, and there's not even enough relation there to call them opposites! The reason Catholics think BC is wrong has nothing to do with why people take Viagra.
"Wisdom is to admit how little one knows."
Yeah, that is wise. But true wisdom is from the Holy Spirit, and you begin to understand things about the divine. The Church freely admits there is much more we don't know than know about God.
"Eternal happiness does sound boring; one must be exposed to unhappiness to recognize happiness."
Worldly definitions and confusion caused by your inability to be truly happy and experience peace. Even you have experienced it in your fallen state, it's still not what it would be in heaven.
"The only God that makes sense to me has the qualities that human beings and their religions seem to be incapable of: boundless and unconditional love. Maybe someday I will find that God."
That is the Christian God. If God had no wrath towards that which threatens what is good for you then he wouldn't truly love you. His anger is for our sake, he does nothing for Himself, because he is perfect. Nothing he does adds or takes away from him. It's all for us. God is literally love. Second he is mercy. Saying God is jealous means he wants us all for himself, which is what is best for us and will make us the happiest if we are all his.
"It has been interesting debating with you. I think it's time to quit; you're beginning to sound testy. I wish you well."
Same to you, and perhaps I am. It's due to the fact that I am hostile towards what you believe, but not hostile towards your right to believe it. It's a fine line, I know.
"Thanks for your wish for heaven for me. If I get there, I hope it's not a heaven where I sit around feeling happy and smug that I'm there and not in the other place."
If heaven is pure goodness, truth, etc, then it wouldn't be anything you don't want it to be. Peace to you as well.
''More like the fascist, autocratic Catholic Church (led by a former Hitler Youth member no less!) is trying to exert undue influence into workings of a democratic government.''
What do you expect from people who support and idolize anti-secularist terrorism in Mexico?
The Calles laws were some of the best things to happen to Mexico, it was just a shame that rich-priests were able to whip up enough support by playing on the fears of poor and ignorant peasants. Luckily some states were very successful against Christian terrorism, Tabasco was one of them! Viva Garrido.
If you hate Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make it your signature!