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Couple questions and am I missing something - minor spoiler ?


At the beginning of the movie when they're watching the footage from inside the house of "Heather" running up over the steps and they rewind to focus on her reflection in the mirror and her brother says that her. Was that actually heather?

Because at the end when Lisa is running up the steps we catch a quick glimpse of her reflection in the mirror making me believe that the footage they were watching at the beginning was actually the footage from Lisa's camera?

Next and last question, they make a point to mention Lane's camera was a old camera that takes tapes... Was this the camera from the original movie or am I missing something?

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The girl in the footage they see at the beginning is actually Lisa. It's meant to be some sort of time-looping twist.

Lane''s camera isn't the one from the original film. I think the director included it to have a bit of contrast in the footage, but it's definitely not one of the cameras used in the first film.

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I think the hook was it used the same kind of tape as the first group.

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That makes sense I guess. Liked the film but all of that stuff was pretty terrible.

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Thanks for adding an actual topic the movie, not just a snobby bashing of it like the rest of the comments. Here's my thought about Leafs "found footage". Remember at the end when Lisa sees him in the cabin and he tells her that "you have to do what she says"? Well I related that to the whole time loop thing and that the YouTube video clip is definitely one of the final scenes where Lisa is being chased through the cabin. What if Leaf from that time frame of the final moments if the movie was instructed by the witch to plant the video do that his former self would find it, thus starting this whole timeline of events? Just a thought.

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Lisa killed Lane. He couldn't have planted the tape.

I do think Lane in the first timeline was being used by the witch and lured them into the woods. Like Parr did.

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The footage was a paradox.

Like how the alternate 1985 would have effected the inventing of the DeLorean time vehicle because Doc was committed.

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That was an alternate timeline. When Biff went back to the past, he created an alternate 1985 that they returned to, so no time machine and no time travel in that universe. Doc and Marty are outside of it--hence Biff thinking Marty was in France.


Nothing like that in BW as the impetus for them going to to the woods is the tapes. No alternate timeline.

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But that was the time line they were supposed to be in. It was still 1985.
In the game, when Marty goes back to the alternate 1986, the DeLorean disappears because Doc never invented it.

I like having impromptu thought provoking conversations about Back to the Future....

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But that was the time line they were supposed to be in.


No, it wasn't. Doc explains on a chalk board. Biff going back with the almanac created the skewed 1985 they returned to. That's why there are two versions of themselves.

In Blair Witch, it's a loop, not an alternate timeline. They go into the woods because of the tape, a tape that didn't get made until later. If they don't go into the woods, there was no tape. No tape? No woods. BTTF is linear. Blair Witch is a circular--and dumb as it stands within the movie because the tape is edited. It's just poorly conceived and really seems like something they chucked in there.

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No, it wasn't. Doc explains on a chalk board. Biff going back with the almanac created the skewed 1985 they returned to. That's why there are two versions of themselves.


Sorry, I misspoke. I meant that's the year they were suppose to be in.
And I only used the BTTF reference as a paradox example.

In the Blair Witch...some areas in the woods are locked in time. They weren't in an alternate time line. They were sent back. That's why outside the house, Lisa noticed the tree that was struck by lightning. The one they saw when they first entered the woods. Where Lane found the tape. That house wasn't there. They were at the same place, but at a different time.

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BTTF used a different paradox.

Blair Witch uses a causal loop. What I'm saying is, regarding the post about Lane planting the tape, he couldn't because Lisa killed him before the tape was even made. That would all be well and good, except what we see isn't on the tape they see, so it's changed after. No one except the witch and Lane is outside the loop that we know of.

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Isn't "before" a problematic concept when time travel is involved? Could it be possible that at some point after Lisa kills Lane, her future footage goes back in time to when Lane was still alive and doing the witch's bidding? If so, that's when he could plant the tape to be found by his past self, per her orders.

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Not when one event is the cause of the other. Unless she stopped to change tapes in the camera after she killed him or the BW has an editing deck in the house.

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In a fixed timeline story, you can even have an event that causes itself, so I don't see the concern.

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No, you can't. Not without an external timeline or third party intervention.

For example, when they reach the house, James sees a flashlight shining out the upper floor window. This could be his own because he was going to enter the house anyway. It's a minor skew of the timeline.

However with the tape, it's the sole reason they enter the woods. For that exact tape to be the cause doesn't make sense.

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Sure it can. It's called a "Causal Loop". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop

Another great concept regarding this is Novikov's self-consistency principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle

Not only can events caused themselves, but so can objects and even people (see "Predestination" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2397535/).

Anyhow, they enter the woods because they found the tape, a tape which only exists because they enter the woods. It's a typical fixed timeline causal loop.

The question here is how Lane could have planted the tape, since it shows events after his death. With the house's time wibbly-wobblyness, it's conceivable the tape, after it's done recording, is then sent back in time within the house, where Lane, now alive and under witch's control, goes and plants it in the woods. He then goes back and eventually meets his demise.

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I'm well-aware it uses the principle of a causal loop. There's another thread on here somewhere where I say just that.

Causal loops and predestination are not explanations in and of themselves, though. An event cannot be the sole factor in causing itself and it cannot coincide with the event. For example, Lost uses a causal loop regarding The Incident. They travel back in time to cause the events of the show but they do not directly crash the plane themselves.

Your wiki link demonstrates this with the billiard ball. A ball moving forward a time machine can travel back and strike itself causing the loop. But initially the ball is driven forward by alternative means. It does not strike it before that initial movement. Same principle as the example with James' flashlight I used.

The tape is a different thing unless, as I said initially, the Witch fixed the tape somewhere, editing out all the stuff prior-to and after Lisa's run up the stairs, then stuck the tape under the tree outside the loop. That's possible. But with this comes the motivation to lure James and the rest into the woods...why? It's certainly possible. It does seem like Blaine is under her control, a la, Rustin Parr throughout the movie but we're pretty much fanwanking the movie ourselves at this point.

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An event cannot be the sole factor in causing itself and it cannot coincide with the event.
This would be where Novikov's principle comes in, where events and objects can happen "out of nothing", as long as the ultimate timeline is consistent.

Though, if an external force is needed to get things started, it would certainly seem the Witch fits the bill, creating the scenario we seen in the film from start to finish.

Why would she? I really haven't paid attention to the Witch's motivations in these movies. Cuz she's mean?

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This would be where Novikov's principle comes in, where events and objects can happen "out of nothing", as long as the ultimate timeline is consistent.


Only in a closed timeline. The real world or fictional real world in this case isn't closed.

The witch in the original didn't appear to have a motivation. The filmmakers went into the woods, one of them screws with one of the witch's totems and she gets them.

In this sequel, she's apparently super evil but can only get you after you spend a night, yet somehow Rustin Parr lived right there having built a house. Blaine mentions something about having to get people that remembered...whatever that means.

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"Closed timeline"? ()

Well, I suppose the only way a timeline would be a "closed timeline" is if there are no other external timelines affecting it (like a "closed system" in physics). As far as I can see, BW does not posit any parallel or external timelines impacting the one we see in the film. So, we are likely only seeing one closed timeline in the movie. Which means self-creating events/objects are possible.

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*squints*

Why would you bring up Novikov if you don't know what a closed timeline is?

The whole principle relies on the last event being a foregone conclusion, this isn't the case in an open timeline. It's not an explanation in and of itself because in all models the initial movement is external to the time travel loop. It's also a rather shallow hypothesis that sidesteps the Grandfather paradox.

If Blaine is actually working for the Witch (possible) then it all does make sense as he exists outside that timeline.

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I'm all ears as far as what you consider a "closed timeline" to be. I've never heard of that expression before.

Nor do I see the relevance to Novikov. Novikov's principle only prevents self-contradictory timelines from existing. But of the many possible self-consistent timelines, it doesn't hold one of them to be a "forgone conclusion" at all. They're all possible.

Yes, when a self-consistent timeline is selected, the events of that possible future have already happened, but nothing dictates that timeline to be selected. As the billiard ball scenario shows, there are an infinite number of solutions.

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A closed timeline is the frame of the loop. It has manufactured itself and in need of the course correction to do so. Therefore any deviation from that is impossible. That's the gist of the principle and accepts that the outcome is a foregone conclusion. According to his theory, paradoxes cannot exist. It's ad hoc and not very accepted because of that. I'll point out again, it was just his way of sidestepping the grandfather paradox.

A ball moving forward is knocked toward a time warp pocket by that ball from the future is just another way of saying the ball entering the pocket was inevitable. Can't happen without alt-verses because something had to create the loop to begin with.

What does work is a ball is traveling toward a time warp and goes into it without intervention, comes out back in time and strikes the ball before it enters the loop, knocking the initial ball out of the timeline creating a second one. However, that glance directs the ball from the future in timeline A back into the time warp. Thus it keeps going, while the original ball is off in another timeline. That works if Blaine is the original ball. It's not an event out of nothing, which is what Novikov runs on, which is just a way of saying it happened because it happened. Wizards and magnets and *beep*

His principle is incomplete and shallow. That's why Caltech and various other theorists came up with other ones like the second one I described.

Multiverses are another deal. Unless Blair Witch is an Otherverse from BWP, which I guess could explain why so many things are different...like Heather suddenly having a brother she never mentioned.

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Ah.... you mean a "closed timelike curve" or "CTC". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

Now, I know you like to address what really might happen, but in fiction, Novikov's principle is use many times. Just a few:

o "Terminator": John Connor exists because he sent his father back in time to impregnate his mother.
o "All You Zombies"/"Predestination (movie)" has Jane existing because she impregnated herself!"
o "Time Lapse": Finn's paintings only exist because he sees them in photos sent into the past so he can paint them.

It's called a "Bootstrap Paradox", and Novikov's principle merely attempt to refine the concept as to why some paradoxes work and others don't. That first link on Causal Loops I posted goes into the bootstrap paradox and Novikov.

And since BW is also fiction, there's no reason the events couldn't have also been written as a bootstrap paradox. The see a tape of them in the forest, which gets them to enter the forest and make the tape.

Now, since Godel showed CTCs are mathematically possible, we'll have to see if similar phenomena can happen in reality. I understand you have your objections, but I don't believe it's been proven (or disproven) one way or the other.

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If your point is things don't have to make sense in fiction, you could have just said that and I'd have agreed. Since we're in a thread about things that don't make sense, other speculative fiction is hardly support for a claim.

To put a point on it, since we are viewing the tapes, it prevents the loop. There IS no closed timeline. An alternate timeline is the only explanation for the tapes existing outside of the loop for the sheriff or whoever to find. I'll readily accept this if there was something in the movie to suggest it...but there isn't really. It's a "wouldn't it be cool" thing. It works if the troupe we see are stuck in sort of a chronological snow globe the outside world is looking at.

Novikov doesn't attempt to redefine paradoxes, it suggests they're impossible. IE, you can't change the future because the future is set. Things happen because they can't NOT happen. Lost kinda ran on this. There will always be some intervention to prevent the paradox.

I understand you have your objections, but I don't believe it's been proven (or disproven) one way or the other.


Well, that goes without saying. Unless the government isn't telling us things.

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I see no evidence in BW to suggest alternate timelines. Seems like straight-forward fixed timeline fare with a bootstrap paradox setting things off. Novikov's principle specifically allows such paradoxes.

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You missed the "look at me, this is a Back to the Future thread now " in your comment ;)

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