Bad writing? Evidence #1 (Spoiler) - Flashforward (2009) Discussion

[–] DanPhx 14 years ago

It seems most people agree FF is badly written.

I mean, talk about misdirection/anti-climax/just plain ole bad!

Storytelling and writing aren't synonyms, though related and sometimes even come from the same person.

You can hold the position that you don't like stories that contain misdirection. That's a preference and your choice to make.

But if the storyteller decides to put in a misdirection (as is his/her choice) and the writer tricks some people with it (as was the case judging from some posts here throughout the season), then both have done their job. There was at least one thread that exposed that particular element in a quite entertaining way. Sorry I don't have a link to it handy. It was quite hilarious, imo. I believe the title contained the words, "MARK BENFORD IS DEAD"

I mean, talk about misdirection/anti-climax/just plain ole bad!

Supporting your conclusions would go a long way to making your case. In fact, it would upgrade your "example" to actual be the "evidence" you claimed it was in the first place. If you offer different "writing" to replace what you labelled "just plain ole bad!" and more people like it, than you prove your point and we learn from your example. That would be cool.

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

Sorry, I don't follow you at all.

Do you find the "and with one bound he was free" kind of writing acceptable?

This wasn't a carefully plotted surprise - it was a cheap way out of what could have been an interesting gotcha. This was not an example of writers "doing their job".

But just my opinion, of course. Then again, I also don't like deus ex machina types of endings, which I also consider bad writing - perhaps you are ok with that, too.

And why should I have to give a counter-example? I'm not the writer. But since you ask, a better example would have been for the CIA guy to say "Benford is dead," and then Benford appears and says "No I'm not."

Misdirection is great, if done well.

Cheers.

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[–] benface 14 years ago

But since you ask, a better example would have been for the CIA guy to say "Benford is dead," and then Benford appears and says "No I'm not."

LOL what?!

Thank God you're not a writer. xD

I liked the way it turned out in the show.

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

But since you ask, a better example would have been for the CIA guy to say "Benford is dead," and then Benford appears and says "No I'm not."

Ha ha, you obviously don't understand sarcasm.

And I do actually know the difference between bad writing and bad storytelling.

Okay, let me try to spell it out:

The problem is that this was not a misdirection set up by a misunderstanding of what was said, due to the character's preconceptions or personality. Nor was it something that was worked out through action. It was completely dialogue based. It's the verbal equivalent of the gun-that-runs-out-of-ammo-at-the-crucial-moment, what might be called a banana-peel moment, when the bad guy slips on a banana peel and the hero manages to escape.

A banana-peel moment can be written with all the eloquence of Shakespeare, but it's still bad writing.

But, like I said, I actually enjoyed the show.

Peace.

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[–] benface 14 years ago

Uhm your sarcasm could have been *a little* more obvious lol.

It seems you're the only one who didn't like this twist, so stop trying to convince those who liked it.

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

If other people liked it, then no problem.

All I'm saying is I thought it was baaaaad.

It was akin to the old western movie serials, where the cliffhanger would have the hero falling into the canyon, and next week, he'd be back on his horse none the worse for wear.

And as far as "trying to convince those who like it", I thought that was the basic idea of debate, discussion and review.

But ... only ... my ... opinion.

Anyway, old cheese now (which actually also sums up the series).

Peace :)

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] jessica-griswold 14 years ago

I actually did not like that "twist." I thought it was sloppy and cheap. I had very few problems with FlashForward. That should tell you that I am not picky. That line made me cringe. I wish he would just have said that Mark Benford was dead because that's what he believed and that's what he saw in his flash forward. They could have dealt with him being alive later.
No one talks that way. It sounded like it was a translation from another language in which parts of speech were not in the correct order.

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[–] lord_kobel 14 years ago

Why did he say he was dead anyway? He said "Mark Benford is dead. He's gone into the building" or something like that, but he already knew that! He was standing there at the time when he went in, so why would he suddenly say that?

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[–] benface 14 years ago

I wish he would just have said that Mark Benford was dead because that's what he believed and that's what he saw in his flash forward.

What??! Honestly, that would have been terrible IMO. "Mark Benford is dead. At least that's what I think. Well that's what I was supposed to say." LOL

No one talks that way. It sounded like it was a translation from another language in which parts of speech were not in the correct order.

I have no idea what you mean by that, it sounded fine.

Sorry, I just totally disagree with you, I thought that was a smart - simple, but smart - way to conclude that storyline.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] thalatta-599-234568 14 years ago

> a better example would have been for the CIA guy to say "Benford is dead," and then Benford appears and says "No I'm not."

No, it wouldn't. I liked the way they developed it very much. From a certain moment we were led to believe (rightly, it seems) that FFs show just possible futures, so at some point I started to think that Charlie's FF was just this kind of what may happen but doesn't have to. I believed everything was going to play out differently, so the finale was a massive surprise for me - the way they made these FF's happen, with just slight changes, like the sex of Janice's baby.

And now I'd really love to learn if it is important that she saw something different from what actually happened? Is it why the woman with the ring took her from the hospital? The series developed so well, and the finale opened so many new possibilities that it is really a shame they cancel it. I do hope for a renewal.

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

Misdirection is great, when done skillfully.

Hitchcock was a master of this.

My point is that the FF example was done badly.

But as I say elsewhere, old cheese already ...

:)

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[–] Roiin07 14 years ago

"But since you ask, a better example would have been for the CIA guy to say "Benford is dead," and then Benford appears and says "No I'm not.""

Oh God! That is cheesy and horrible. I thought this particular instance of storytelling was pretty cool. It may be a cheap trick, but I still liked it.

As for the writing of the show... I would agree that it was cheesy and could have been notched up quite a bit, but I thoroughly enjoyed the method of storytelling and the stories as a whole.

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

Ha ha, okay, here's another better way:

PREVIOUS EPISODES

CIA GUY
Benford is dead ...

END OF FLASHFORWARD

FINAL EPISODE:

CIA GUY
Benford is dead ...
(FF continues)
... wrong about what caused the flashforward!

And to the guy who keeps trying to make a distinction between bad "writing" (spelling, grammar, style) and story-telling, please stop being so pedantic.

*In my view*, this was badly written, and a cheap way out of what could have been a tense and imaginatively-handled twist (well, tense in an abstract sense, since most viewers, it seems, actually wanted Benford dead).

In writer-speak, the payoff did not justify the setup.

Peace.

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[–] sinncross 14 years ago

Its called misdirection TC.

Think about it... how is it possible that the CIA guy would have known that Benford had died so quickly?
The flashforwards are not exactly long and it appeared that Benford at least experienced his own so technically, the CIA would have only said that Benford was dead at earliest just before the flashforwards ended, which we know was not the case.

It was obvious from the get go that something was funny with the FF from the CIA agent, and now we know why.
In actual fact... it comes across as good writing, not bad.

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[–] jshoaf 14 years ago

Right... though...
When they first revealed that Charlie heard a man outside say Mark Benford was dead, my thought was, "Well, since Mark's flashforward shows him in danger of death but very much alive and reacting to what is going on, he wasn't dead and the man Charlie heard was mistaken."
In the final episode, I wished that the CIA dude, knowing that he was supposed to say Mark was dead, had said something different and/or paid some attention to the people listening to him. Instead, he just repeats the original, not very accurate, phrase, plus an explanation which clarifies nothing.
I think the point of the scene was Olivia arriving to protect Charlie from hearing it.

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[–] ducki3s 14 years ago

It was not bad. It was clever.

Of course a young girl would hear her father is dead and stop listening and freak out. So even if in her flashforward, they could've continued with the line from the finale and she would've been in such a shock she missed it.

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[–] perfectpawn 14 years ago

This thread's become bogged down in semantics; just want to say you don't need to worry about defending your position. FlashForward was a poorly written show full stop. But that's why I liked it. "How dumb can it get THIS week?" And low and behold, my expectations were fulfilled every time. Indeed, they were exceeded. I'll miss it.

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[–] liketoknowwhy 14 years ago

I thought your evidence of bad writing was the obvious voiceovers for scenes that were already filmed. I caught it in quite a few episodes - even the finale. When Benford and Wedeck were outside the FBI building, we hear Wedeck say something like call a friend, but his mouth says something completely different. He then calls Aaron in Afghanistan. UGH!!! For the last episode they could've cleaned this up.

I did like the last episode though and I think I would've stuck around for a second season. Oh well...

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[–] am4815162342 14 years ago

LOL at the OP comment @@.
That is not an example of bad writing.

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[–] SophomoreSlump 14 years ago

Dude, that's not bad writing. That's bad editing. Get your terms right.

TEAM ALICE
Quota: 30 sec!

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[–] the_headspace 14 years ago

You might be right, I have no way of knowing ... but this was a plot point, not an editing decision as far as I can figure. Only the writer would know for sure, though.

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[–] optionalhero 14 years ago

well if you call this ''bad writing'' what are the examles of good writing in the tv series. I really wanna know? for me it is one of the top 5 shows on TV.

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[–] matiastimm 14 years ago

This is my take on this issue:

On one hand, we have Mark's FF, where he's about to be killed by goons with smgs, one of them with three stars tattooed to his forearm.

On the other hand, we have Charlie's FF, where she hears this CIA guy tell her mother that her father's dead... at the same time he dies. For most of the show, I assumed this to be proof that the CIA guy had ordered the hit (i.e., he'd sent the goons to waste him) and that he showed up at Mark's house to deliver the bad news, and perhaps to off the rest of his family.

The finale made this look like more of an afterthought, "hey, dude, that guy's dead, no way he can get out of there alive."

Anyway, the finale contradicts the idea that they actually have free will, but it supports the idea that the universe forces certain things to happen.

As for "bad writing", I thought the Somalian whacko was a piece of lazy writing. I expected they'd do something more interesting with that character, instead of turning him into a garden variety murdering religious nut.

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