Is it moral for a civilization that claims to live by very high ideas

Darth_Ackbar_II posted:

They did commit a MAJOR CRIME in 1990's BEFORE THE TIME CHANGE, they like the prime universe Khan and his followers, started the Eugenics war and killed millions of people he and his followers are Augments and felt that they should rule earth.

BEFORE THE TIME CHANGE THE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY INCLUDED (as we learn from both universes)

1. Taking control of 1/4 of the planet -- 1980's (source Classic Trek)

2. Starting the Eugenics war -- 1990's (source Classic Trek and Enterprise)

3. Killing millions of people who opposed them -- 1990's (source Classic Trek and Enterprise)

4. Theft of the S.S. Botany Bay -- 1990's (source classic Trek and Enterprise)

5. Being part of a race that was outlaws on earth (source Enterprise)

All of them were tyrant in 1980-1990's on earth before the change

Let's quote from "Space Seed"

KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He'll spend the rest of his days in our time. It's only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.
KIRK: Interesting, if true. They created a group of Alexanders, Napoleons.
SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts.
SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Kirk says that the supermen began fighting among themselves, so no doubt many hundreds or thousands of them were killed by other supermen. But there must have been survivors of those battles between supermen who should have continued to rule what was left of their realms.

But Spock says:

By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

So Spock says that the remaining supermen were finally overthrown and defeated by ordinary humans. And what did the ordinary humans do to all the tens or hundreds or thousands of supermen and superwomen and superchildren they caught?

SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Note that Spock doesn't say "alive and free: he says "alive". So the only supermen and superwomen and superkids left alive after the victory of the ordinary humans were the ones unaccounted for, the ones who escaped from the ordinary humans, the ones that weren't slaughtered without mercy by the vengeful ordinary humans.

So Khan's people were refugees from genocide against their kind.

What does Khan tell Captain Terrell in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan?

KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie2.html

Some of them may have sworn allegiance to Khan when the remaining super men, women, and children boarded the Botany Bay in 1996. Thus it is possible that some of them might have been former members of Khan's enemies. And some of them may have sworn allegiance to Khan years earlier, possibly when plotting to seize power. And judging by the apparent ages of Khan's few surviving followers in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, fifteen years after they were revived and left on Ceti Alpha V, some of them must have been children when they swore allegiance to Khan, either when their parents did or else when they boarded the Botany Bay as orphaned refugees.

I can imagine superkids begging to be let aboard and readily agreeing to swear allegiance to Khan to have one chance in a thousand of surviving.

So the 42 frozen supermen and 30 frozen superwomen in Star Trek: Into Darkness must have also included one or two dozen super children.

And in "Space Seed":

KIRK: Forgive my curiosity, Mister Khan, but my officers are anxious to know more about your extraordinary journey.
SPOCK: And how you managed to keep it out of the history books.
KHAN: Adventure, Captain. Adventure. There was little else left on Earth.
SPOCK: There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort.
KHAN: Tyranny, sir? Or an attempt to unify humanity?
SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip?
KHAN: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships.
KHAN: One man would have ruled eventually. As Rome under Caesar. Think of its accomplishments

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Spock mentions:

SPOCK: There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Which also shows that the ordinary humans overthrew the supermen.

(A large picture of their guest in on a screen)
KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

McCoy says that Khan did not aggressively start any wars after seizing power in 1992:

MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Therefore, the Eugenics Wars, when, according to Spock:

Whole populations were being bombed out of existence

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

Were not caused by Khan and his followers. They were caused partially by other supermen ruling other realms who attacked each other and attacked Khan, and partially by ordinary humans attacking Khan and other supermen to overthrow them.

It is possible that some of the supermen on the Botany Bay were former members of Khan's enemies who had attacked him. It is also possible that all of the super persons on the Botany Bay were Khan's followers who had never been part of starting a war of aggression.

Since Spock says that:

Whole populations were being bombed out of existence

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm

We can imagine that Khan's enemies launched atomic missiles at his realm and blasted cities and killed tens or hundreds of millions of his innocent subjects and then Khan and his supermen followers, safe in their hidden underground bunkers, launched atomic missiles in retaliation and killed tens or hundreds of millions of innocent enemy civilians in the enemy cities.

Thus we can agree that supermen and/or ordinary humans who launched atomic missiles at Khan's realm in one or more first strikes did something evil, and that even though Khan's response and retaliation was less evil it was still very evil. We can understand why Captain Picard in "A Matter of Time" lumped Khan together with Hitler even though Kirk and his officers found much to admire in Khan.

PICARD: Yes, Professor, I know. What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/209.htm

But since we don't know if any of the 72 surviving super persons were among those who may have launched atomic missiles in surprise attacks, it is possible that all the 72 super persons were among those whose groups launched atomic missiles only in retaliatory strikes.

And though we can agree that launching atomic missiles is evil, even in a retaliatory strike after the enemy has already launched their missiles against you, we must remember the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John 8:7:

"Let he among you that is without sin cast the first stone".

And only members of third world nations can say that they, and their older friends and relatives, are without sin in this matter of retaliatory atomic strikes. Only citizens of nations that were non aligned during the Cold War can say that they never encouraged or permitted their nation or allied nations to pursue a mad, MAD, policy of Mutual Assured Destruction.

So we should all hope that there is a statute of limitations on supporting a policy of nuclear retaliation and thus mass murder, for otherwise we will all be in danger of possibly being arrested in the future.

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