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Why is Stefan's Guilt less compelling than Damon's?

posted 8 years ago by camelotfalls
17 replies | jump to latest

I think this episode was trying to echo the episode where we were in Damon's head and really got to understand his guilt for all his actions, and the fact that he felt he deserved to die. That episode also worked well because it was about Damon's relationships and ties to each of the characters, and it really worked hard to find some kind of resolution however small within those relationships.

But it doesn't work so well here with Stefan. Even when he's saying that the person who killed all those people in the photographs is really him or when he's talking about Enzo's blood on his hands or that little girls' mother - his guilt comes off as somewhat hollow and there's never any pay-off because characters like Caroline and Damon are forever running around trying to absolve him of his sins before he actually pays for them in some way.

Speaking of Caroline, the worst thing that's ever happened to her character is Steroline. She grows more pathetic about him each episode.

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

The only compelling parts of Damons guilt trip is him reading his letter to Bonnie and forgiving Stefan. He apologized 7 years too late to Matt about Vicki and probably should've instead or also apologized about Tyler. He didn't even apologize to Caroline.

Caroline didn't absolve him of anything, he blames himself. He thanks Damon, then goes to the one person he needs and wants to apologize to, Bonnie. Unfortunately, he got kidnapped.

[–] ReadingRainbow526 8 years ago

I agree

[–] lindsay-kneece 8 years ago

It's because Stefan is less compelling than Damon

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

Probably because we have been on this merry go round with Stefan several times already and the character just gets progressively worse, not better. Also, the guilt is rooted in Stefan's pain and how it makes him feel. It's all about him like always.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] forksforrests 8 years ago

I disagree. Damon's arc didn't work for me at all, because he didn't earn any of the forgiveness that these characters were bending over backwards trying to give him. He didn't earn Bonnie's or Matt's or Caroline's or Tyler's forgiveness. They just put these people on a time crunch, against the deadline of "Mystic Falls will burn if Damon isn't happy by midnight" and them boom, resolutions just kept falling into Damon's lap. That to me doesn't show pay-off, just convenient af writing for Damon because he never needs to earn his redemption.

Stefan wasn't going for total redemption imo (not like Damon did a few episodes ago, where it was like one episode, and then yay Damon is forgiven). But we saw him try to save that realtor's life, over his own, and that was a genuine moment. We never saw Damon DO anything sacrificial like that to earn his redemption. I do think a more complete redemption arc for Stefan would include him talking to Bonnie tho, but we did see him actually feel guilt (imo it wasn't hollow), unlike Damon, who we only saw in some alternate state, with CGI fire on his head, wearing one expression. That's not "guilt". Being catatonic doesn't automatically make you repentant.

A rose is just a rose.

[–] christinaparker-60256 8 years ago

yes!!! this!!!

[–] TaylorBruh25 8 years ago

Thank you

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

I disagree. Damon's arc didn't work for me at all, because he didn't earn any of the forgiveness that these characters were bending over backwards trying to give him. He didn't earn Bonnie's or Matt's or Caroline's or Tyler's forgiveness. They just put these people on a time crunch, against the deadline of "Mystic Falls will burn if Damon isn't happy by midnight" and them boom, resolutions just kept falling into Damon's lap. That to me doesn't show pay-off, just convenient af writing for Damon because he never needs to earn his redemption.

None of them have earned redemption yet and I think you are confusing that with forgiveness. Forgiveness is personal to the person doing the forgiving and as shown in the Damon episode forgiveness from others is not really what was needed to wake him from his catatonic state. Damon needed to forgive Stefan for forcing him to turn, he needed to let go of that because sub-consciously he still blamed him for becoming a vampire. That's why vampire Damon did not exist in his own mind.

Stefan wasn't going for total redemption imo (not like Damon did a few episodes ago, where it was like one episode, and then yay Damon is forgiven). But we saw him try to save that realtor's life, over his own, and that was a genuine moment

Because that wasn't (to quote you) convenient AF writing at all. Stefan the ripper (who can't stop ripping) leaves someone alive? not realistic at all but he needed to start making amends somehow right and immediately he is presented with his first opportunity to do the right thing.

We never saw Damon DO anything sacrificial like that to earn his redemption

How about going into the vault alone so that Stefan would not get hurt?
How about sacrificing his happiness for 60 years for Bonnie.
How about risking his life and humanity by going into the vault in the first place.
How about risking his life when he blew himself up to get Stefan back from the other side?
Remember that time in 6x06 when Damon and Enzo were trapped in Tripps van after they crossed the border? remember Damon asking Stefan to save Enzo first?
I remember Damon risking his life to go and search for Stefan on a werewolf infested mountain on a full moon.
I also remember him risking death by Klaus so that Elena could spend 5 mins with Stefan to try and bring him home.

Stefan wasn't going for total redemption imo (not like Damon did a few episodes ago, where it was like one episode, and then yay Damon is forgiven).

Damon is not forgiven by everyone, only Bonnie and Caroline. Caroline had already forgiven him back in season 6 for what he did to her and she is the only one who recognised that Damon was severely mentally screwed by Sybil and not just roaming around without his humanity on. Bonnie is obviously aware of this now too which is why she mentioned it to Damon before he spoke the words he wrote in the letter. Alaric and Matt tried to kill him for good and failed..but the intent was there and it's obvious they are still really pissed at him but there is nothing they can do about it.

The truth is Damon has earned some loyalty and understanding because many of his actions relate directly to the group good and bad. Stefan's sacrifices mainly relate to Damon at the expense of the greater good.

Being catatonic doesn't automatically make you repentant.

No it doesn't actions do,
however the catatonic state was meant to signify how deeply Damon was affected by the guilt that suddenly rushed to the fore as soon as he was gifted his humanity back. If this was Stefan's reaction then I'm sure people would view it as proof he feels guilt and remorse so much deeper than anyone else. For me this is proof that Damon does feel guilt, he does care just as much as Stefan, he just deals with it differently.
The pancake thing is one of those rituals he uses to cope and it is shown with slap stick humor which is why it isn't taken seriously, it's why Damon isn't taken seriously except by Bonnie and Elena.
He made a pancake breakfast for Stefan a couple of eps ago because he feels guilt. We know he is feeling guilty because he keeps reiterating that it's all his fault when actually we all know it isn't. To say Damon does not feel guilt is a complete mis-read of a character that has been shown to be ruled by his emotions good and bad.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] lindsay-kneece 8 years ago

This ^^ I'm gonna miss you the most when these boards disappear!

[–] bluesysax 8 years ago

well thank you, i'm flattered. I tend to agree with most things you write too but I guess we watch the show through a similar lens so that's not surprising.

Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[–] cocogurl-95192 8 years ago

Exactly. Honestly, Damon's guilt has never been very compelling to me because of how easy it is for him to absolved of stuff.

[–] pizzaroo-02987 8 years ago

I disagree. Damon's arc didn't work for me at all, because he didn't earn any of the forgiveness that these characters were bending over backwards trying to give him. He didn't earn Bonnie's or Matt's or Caroline's or Tyler's forgiveness. They just put these people on a time crunch, against the deadline of "Mystic Falls will burn if Damon isn't happy by midnight" and them boom, resolutions just kept falling into Damon's lap. That to me doesn't show pay-off, just convenient af writing for Damon because he never needs to earn his redemption.

Stefan wasn't going for total redemption imo (not like Damon did a few episodes ago, where it was like one episode, and then yay Damon is forgiven). But we saw him try to save that realtor's life, over his own, and that was a genuine moment. We never saw Damon DO anything sacrificial like that to earn his redemption. I do think a more complete redemption arc for Stefan would include him talking to Bonnie tho, but we did see him actually feel guilt (imo it wasn't hollow), unlike Damon, who we only saw in some alternate state, with CGI fire on his head, wearing one expression. That's not "guilt". Being catatonic doesn't automatically make you repentant.

^THIS

[–] orgine 8 years ago

The problem is that in their insistence on favouring Damon's character and distorting the narrative to prop him up (Damon needing to forgive Stefan to snap out of his catatonia... ripper!Stefan holding his tongue and not throwing it in Damon's face that his actions are his own responsibility...) --- they don't do him any favours. He doesn't earn anything, and he just comes across as a Karma Houdini.

[–] ThinkBfourUSpeak 8 years ago

I think it all has to do with acting ability. I dont feel sympathetic towards Stefan at all. I think both of them are bad actors esp Ian but stefan comes off as I-dont-care-what-is happening-I-am-being-forced-to-do-all-this. Maybe it is Paul's feelings towards the show but it is not compelling.

Even that scene when he is talking to Caroline about the blood on his hand, i felt nothing for his sorry figure.

------You is KIND, you is SMART, you is IMPORTANT -----

[–] pizzaroo-02987 8 years ago

I felt very bad for Stefan. Maybe the fact you guys think Stefan's wasn't as compelling as Damon's is because Damon is your guys' favorite character. Therefore, you naturally favor Damon over Stefan with anything.

[–] ThinkBfourUSpeak 8 years ago

You couldnt be more wrong. I hate Damon. I dont like Stefan. I hate Elena. I stopped watching the show coz of Elena and Damon esp Elena. I just think Paul's attitude towards his role is blah which he has shown many times in his interviews too. And I think Ian is a terrible actor.

------You is KIND, you is SMART, you is IMPORTANT -----

[–] iheartmelbourne 8 years ago

This is a really brilliant topic – and my views are below. I've enjoyed the responses.

I am so crushed these boards are going – a decision made mostly because of trolling elsewhere.
😢

I think The Vampire Diaries/The Originals subcultures are intelligent and impassioned here. I've seen a lot of fervent debates but little trolling. Why should trolls spoil it for us here?

(Incidentally, does anyone know if this is legit: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1405406/board/flat/266023935)

I'm actually surprised that so many don't like Damon or Elena or even Delena. I have to say they were favourites or mine and I LOVE that ship.

I am wondering if one problem was that Stelena ended prematurely in the narrative?

If we go by the canon of LJ Smith's books, then I guess Delena was endgame… but, to be fair, it was a little ambiguous.

I am not dissing anyone's fave ship, though, as I love all the characters and I love the passion of those who still watch the show and support it overall.

I myself do think Nina's departure weakened the show – maybe because I didn't find the focus on Stefan/Damon's relationship itself compelling (romance was at the heart of it for me and it has greater allure). But that also arose from the fact I don't think the writers managed to find a way to sustain the show post-departure. At the time I thought maybe killing off Elena would have been best.

I love Kai. Maybe he should have been kept around longer?

To return to topic (sorry for rambling!), it could be that Damon has never been as repentant as Stefan – Damon liked being a vampire whereas Stefan was more conflicted. I am not sure why in that case Damon directed recriminations to Stefan for turning him… In some ways becoming a vampire made Damon come into his own as he was lost as a human (Stefan being his father's fave) – much like vampirism made Caroline come into her own. I think Damon is very fatalistic/pragmatic about vampire #lyfe and that maybe irks people?

The one thing that troubles me with where things are going is that many fans are theorising that TVD will end with a similar scenario to the fabled TV show St Elsewhere (which I had to wiki) where it's revealed to be a dream…

I would HATE that kind of conceit.

I also hate the idea of everyone becoming human again. Boring! I hated the ending of True Blood where everyone became boring and domesticated and Sookie went off and married a Matt equivalent over Bill or Eric. I will be disappointed if they go for that.

I personally think it possible one of the brothers could sacrifice himself for the other to redeem himself… that might be the way I'd take it and it is sort of canon.

Anyway I hope everyone is happy with the ending regardless of what happens. I'm gonna try to be altruistic!