MovieChat Forums > The Final (2011) Discussion > Posters Defending The Victims Actions, R...

Posters Defending The Victims Actions, Read This

posted 15 years ago by White_Dahlia
30 replies | jump to latest

I'll start by saying this first - I love revenge flicks. There's nothing better than seeing wrong-doers get their just desserts, especially if they inflicted a tremendous amount of trauma and harm to said victims. But this movie, whose premise was a good one and could have gone in a more meaningful direction, was just completely lost in the sake of beating the message across your face with a two-by-four.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't support bullying in the least bit. In fact, I was bullied a time or two in elementary school and in high school I was one of the kids that was pretty much friends with every group of "cliques." As a psychology major, I do realize the incredible pain someone can suffer from through bullying. However, this movie did a horrible job of giving us any reason to feel for the group of misfits. Why? They portrayed no emotion! The closest I got to feeling sorry for one of them was when Heather, Bridget and Kelly confronted Emily at her locker. The montage scenes of them at home contemplating their feelings was nothing more than each of the characters slightly put-off at the most. I can understand that they may be at a "breaking-point" and feel nothing but anger, but I would have liked to have seen some tears shed at least. You think that if their lives were not at all worth living they would appear more down-trodden.

And on a side-note, I think the bullies may have been the least of the kids' problems. Their family situations were to me a much more noticeable sign of neglect that probably made them feel worse than some bullies would have.

Anyways, back on topic. The whole torture thing ending up being a total mishap were the victims were nothing more than bullies themselves. Yes, at first I was rooting for them took out Andy and Parker (whom you think might have been a little more cooperative with their captors being chained up and what-not). But once it got around to Ravi helping out Kurtis, a genuine good person, and being murdered for it by someone who was supposedly a "friend" is where my patience started to wear thin. And then when Bridget actually stood up and was willing to suffer to save others was more heroic and courageous than any of the people we were actually supposed to feel sorry for did. They should have let her go as she obviously learned her lesson. Was that not the point of their whole scheme? Instead, they took their power and ran with it. Sound similar? And we're supposed to feel sorry for them. This is where the movie took about a 90 degree angle downhill. Dane, first and foremost, was an awful lead character. I don't think they focused on him enough and his misery to get us to root for him in his maniacal scheming. Besides Marc Donato's over-acting to a point where it was slightly nauseating, his list of hypocritical speeches was the most aggravating thing in this movie. This guy went on and on about bullying, but yet the entire movie he treated his own friends like dirt ordering them to do this and that, threatening them and even killing one of them? And you nay-sayers on this board root for this sadistic freak? This makes me wonder about the state of the human conscience.

To root on someone with mental disturbance of this sort is just neglectful in it's own right. I really wonder how many of you people would stop and help someone on the side of the street if they were getting harassed, yet you all preach about bullying must be stopped. Give me a break! Torturing someone and disfiguring them for life is definitely not compensation for saying something mean about a person or throwing a carton of milk. Really, I don't say I couldn't feel for these kids, but there were definitely more things they could have done than maim everyone. Go to the gym, get buff, beat the crap out of them. Take a martial art and retaliate when they try to mess with you. Say something back to them for Christ's sake. In fact, most of the bullying incidents I've witnessed usually end when you man up and say something back to the person instead of just taking it. I can't feel sorry for someone when they don't do anything to help their position out.

I'm sorry, but this was just an over the top act. Seriously. People I didn't like in high school - I HAVEN'T SEEN THEM SINCE I GRADUATED NOR DO I CARE WHATEVER THE HECK THEY'RE DOING WITH THEIR LIFES. Solves everything, right?

In fact, Emily's life didn't even seem that terrible. It's obvious from the scene in her bedroom that her mother cared about her, asking why she hadn't been acting normal. So being picked on justifies killing yourself without thinking about your loved ones? Sheesh, give me a break here.

Interesting premise that could have definitely gained more credibility with a dramatically better written revenge plot and characters we can sympathize with. What does it say about this movie when I actually felt more sorry for the bullies (eventually the victims), then those being harassed themselves?

[–] ricky_says_hi 15 years ago

the point of the movie wasn't that the victims were justified to do this. the point was that two wrongs don't make a right. the bullies were wrong to abuse their fellow classmates who were in turn wrong to kidnap them and torture them. another point is that if you do something wrong there will be consequences. the bullies did need to be taught a lesson but the victims took it too far. if i had been in that situation i would have let Bridget go since she had learned her lesson and if not then after she got two fingers cut off.

to the OP i just want to ask if you were bullied in high school or if you yourself were a bully? i'm not trying to be aggressive or anything here but if you haven't been bullied yourself then you won't be able to understand these characters. and they were teenagers, the bullies thought they could do what they did and get away with it and the victims thought it was the most important thing in the world. if they had lived and grown up to be adults then they might have seen things clearer and got over it but they were only teenagers

There's something about flying a kite at night that's so unwholesome

[–] White_Dahlia 15 years ago

See, I really don't see the point of this movie as two wrongs don't make a right. I just saw it as torture porn pretending to make a statement that it really didn't have any clue about. Emily's little spiel at the end tried to paint them as innocent victims that had to "make a point" in order to change things because there are "more of them out there like us."

Sorry, but maiming and mutilating people was not fair justice. I definitely do believe there should have been consequences for the bully's actions. But nothing this extreme. There are ways to get back at and embarrass people without clipping people's limbs off or eroding faces away.

And it's even more disturbing that you fantasize about situations where you would cut people's fingers off. Really? Those kids were mentally disturbed. They obviously needed help and applauding how far they took things, real or not, is just not right.

I was neither bullied, nor a bully. I was practically friends with everyone from every group. No, personally I don't know first hand the effects of bullying, but I know they do wear down people's minds on a psychological level. However, I do know people personally that have been bullied, or been through far worse for that matter, that would never resort to this type of violence.

I just hope people don't get me wrong on this. I love horror movies, and I love violence/gore on a plane where it doesn't travel past fake into reality. In fact, I would have never even posted something like this until I came to this board and read the upsetting amount of posters who actually encouraged, wholeheartedly, violence like this IN REAL LIFE.

You people say bullying and violence need to stop because it provokes things like this movie is based off of, but then you turn around and say that the violence the victims commit is clearly OKAY? Hypocritical much?

On a side note, I didn't notice until now that Spanky from the Little Rascals was in this. Did anybody else find that just a little funny? I didn't think he was that troubled in LR, we should have payed more attention to the signs. haha

[–] nicksterthetuba 15 years ago

Actually, I think somebody just needs to chill the *beep* out

Excuse me
Translate: GET THE HELL OUT THE WAY

[–] White_Dahlia 15 years ago

Just because I'm trying to make a point does not mean I'm some raving mongrel, so you can chill out, okay?

F.Y.I., cussing on the internet and inserting *beep* for said word really loses some of the impact, don't you think?

[–] cinesimon 15 years ago

So you're not a raving mongrel. Therefore you don't need to chill out?
Calm down.
People fantasize about all sorts of stuff. And yes, especially when it comes to bullies and those who take advantage of the less fortunate/strong.
Maybe after a little more varsity you'll realize that people venting on the internet does not mean they actually support or will do what they're fantasizing about. To get all earnest and panicked about this is really rather a sign of your gullibility, and obvious tendency to take things way too seriously - whether they ought to be or not.

[–] JoeyBagOfDonuts 15 years ago

What part did Spanky play? George McFarland, the actor who played Spanky in the Little Rascals movies/television shows, died in 1986.

"Please sign on the dotted line."

[–] ptessadactyl 15 years ago

He played the kid who dressed as a Nazi, Andy.

[–] JoeyBagOfDonuts 15 years ago

Ah - the little rascals movie from 1994 - for some reason - I was thinking of the original television/movies.

"Please sign on the dotted line."

[–] jimwestby 15 years ago

You just have to see it from the killers point of view.

It is only a matter of opinion. I don't think there is a reason to stop violence. I enjoy violence, both ways. Human life is nothing special. People die every day, nobody takes notice. If the entire planet was wiped out, no other creature in the galaxy would lift an ear.

Nobody is innocent. And to mutilate someone slowly, in order to make an example, is a good way to make sure at least one person cares for a little while. The one that is slowly dying. This is indeed OKAY.

[–] SkaterDave 13 years ago

You had a good life so you can't really understand how what happened to these kids can make them do what they did. I can and I cheered them on while they did it..because it was just a movie. I don't think aything like this should happen in real life but it sure was a blast seeing it in the movie.

[–] jmaybay 12 years ago

This I realize is so far back, but I'm just curious. You said that you never dealt with bullying but in your OP you said "I don't support bullying in the least bit. In fact, I was bullied a time or two in elementary school..."

Also you can't say that people don't do this type of thing in real life and that it isn't reality. Hello? How many school shootings have we had in the past 10 years because of bullying? All your psychology in the world can't cancel out facts that have actually REALLY happened. Granted the kids that do shoot outs just kind of pull the triggers and who ever falls falls. Just because these kids seemed to go about this this way doesn't mean that they weren't justified.

I'm not saying justified as in it was ok for them to do these things. It definitely was not, but I can understand how someone would do the things they did just from the types of bullying that can occur. I'd like to point you to a little documentary called "BULLY". Half the stuff in that movie didn't happen to me and I could see if they'd all lost their cools and turned out this way as well.

Also it was also said that these were TEENAGERS. You just breezed right on by someone's logic in that. They're still at the halfway point. I believe toward the end of the movie some of the 'bullied' thought they had gone far enough. So it also shows more reality in the fact that not all of them were bad kids they just went down a wrong road.

I wonder if theyll read this & say that awkward moment when I wasted my life readin a signature. :\

[–] evalina06 12 years ago

Yes, the victimized kids were mentally ill - largely due to the constant abuse by the perpetrators. In real life it causes serious and prolonged mental illness, suicide, turning to drugs/alcohol to cope, etc etc etc. So there should be no downplaying on what the bullies did and how far reaching the effects are. At times it can destroy kids' lives and rarely is there ever any punishment or justice for those that victimize others, except in some of the cases of the suicides caused by these bullies. To have such complete disregard for others' feelings like the level of the bullies is inhuman and there should be real consequences in real life for those that do these things (legally if possible - though minors usually, they need to be seriously punished in some manner). The bullies generally have so much fun at others' misery and then happily go about their lives while they destroy others' lives and leave lasting trauma. Where is that justice? There is none. If the abusers are taught what it is like to be punished in some way, perhaps they would learn to act more humanely and stop victimizing others. So I can see why those totally feel the victims turned torturers in this film were justified in their actions.

[–] simplemines 14 years ago

"to the OP i just want to ask if you were bullied in high school or if you yourself were a bully? i'm not trying to be aggressive or anything here but if you haven't been bullied yourself then you won't be able to understand these characters. and they were teenagers, the bullies thought they could do what they did and get away with it and the victims thought it was the most important thing in the world. if they had lived and grown up to be adults then they might have seen things clearer and got over it but they were only teenagers "

I was bullied horribly in elementary school and middle school, until I transferred to a new school. I absolutely remember what was done to me. I remember exactly what it felt like. To this day, I remember it.

I always thought that if I read in the newspaper that one of my torturers died in a firey car crash, I'd laugh. Yanno, I don't think I would. I'm indifferent.

That kind of mockery and torture being done to a young kid CHANGES you. It really does.

But I'll tell you what it did to me. It made me very sensitive to other people's pain, especially people who are innocent or too weak to fight back. I channeled that anger into something positive. I'm a writer. I've won awards for stories I've done that have publicized inequity and cruelty, and I've gone after politicians who use others for their own gain.

In fact, there's nothing that gets me more angry than people who bully other people. So when I grew up, I became a bully of sorts - except I made it my life's work to bully the bullies.

The monsters, the bullies, the torturers only win if you let what they do to you change you into something worse than they are. CHANNEL that anger. Use it to propel you forward, to make you better than you might've been if you hadn't suffered.

What doesn't kill you does make you stronger. Yes, it absolutely sucks that it happened to you, and that no one was there to help, and no teacher stopped them, etc., etc. But as you've undoubtedly figured out, life isn't fair. It's up to you to even the score by focusing on being the best you can be at whatever you do.

FWIW, I noticed that a lot of the bullies actually maxed out in high school. THAT was the best life ever got for them, and for a lot of them, it was a rapid downhill slide.

Channel your anger. Use it to make you the best you can be, so, yanno, you'll prove how wrong "they" were.

And the funny thing? By the time you make it to the top of where you want to be, you'll suddenly laugh when you realize you really don't give a damn about "them"!

[–] jeffhodapp 15 years ago

I was bullied in school and at home. My parents were alcoholics and drug users and my older brother was psychotic. We were very poor of course and the kids in school saw me as a Judas goat. I thought "Carrie" was descriptive of my life. When my father wasn't beating me he was torturing me with various means. He killed my pets and stole things I loved.

The problem with confronting a bully is they don't stop and usually the only way to stop them is to stop them from growing. In school if you confront a bully you get detention and suspension, then it comes at you from home. Another problem with bullies is mobbing. The bully has cheerleaders and fans. These will pick up the slack in the absence of a bully and come to the fight when challenged. It's not just a question of confrontation. The bullying comes from all sides. People destroy your property,poison your food, make your life miserable continuously. I didn't kill the people I didn't like just waited to get away from them. They left their mark and others see it sometimes. My life didn't turn out so hot in the end but I don't think about the bullies too much. I wish I could have been treated better so I would have a better outlook.

Our society exemplifies violence and often people victimize each other. That is the reason you read about people killing children in China. The victims want to help themselves but there is just no way. Their tormentors are well protected and out of reach so they go crazy. Mental illness can be caused by continuous feelings of hopelessness.

I don't have a solution. Work for a better tommorrow maybe.

[–] warden-man 15 years ago

I really wonder how many of you people would stop and help someone on the side of the street if they were getting harassed

As Op had in his review- I don't help people any more - I went to a new years party a few years ago and this guy was beating his girlfriend up outside. I decided to step in and help her and to my surprise and shock when I pulled him off her and whacked him-she turned on me and attacked me and I ended up getting both of them on me attacking me!!!

Now if I see someone in distress- screw em!!!!

[–] White_Dahlia 15 years ago

"So you're not a raving mongrel. Therefore you don't need to chill out?
Calm down.
People fantasize about all sorts of stuff. And yes, especially when it comes to bullies and those who take advantage of the less fortunate/strong.
Maybe after a little more varsity you'll realize that people venting on the internet does not mean they actually support or will do what they're fantasizing about. To get all earnest and panicked about this is really rather a sign of your gullibility, and obvious tendency to take things way too seriously - whether they ought to be or not."

What is so hard for you people to understand? I'm not sitting behind my computer waving some knife, moron. I'm perfectly calm and just because I make a rational opinion on this movie means I need to calm down?

And please, please, please in all your self-righteousness glory do not call me gullible. You don't know me, so don't make assumptions behind your internet facade. I've seen more horror movies than you think. I am far from gullible after seeing so many. Some cheap, low-budget fodder like The Final is not going to make me believe ANYTHING. The concept is such a joke and it makes me laugh. How this movie could make anyone believe there is a real meaningful message behind it is insulting to the average movie-goers' intelligence. Maybe you're the gullible one since you found it necessary to respond and spew your "absoluteness" all over this page? Your attempts to trick me into thinking I'm "earnest and panicked" are not going to work here sly. I recognize your attempts to get into my head and make me look stupid is not going to work. I'm a psychology major after all, I'm up to how these things function.

So what you're saying is people can fantasize about murdering people, but I can't have a say on it? Ha. I perfectly realize this is a movie and I'm not going to take it the least bit serious, contrary to what you, of all people (sarcasm), have to say. But the whole topic of people saying they're going to do something outrageous and outlandish like murder and bystanders not responding to it is similar to how most of the events depicted in The Final start, is it not? Now go crawl back to the internet crevice from which you came.

[–] Blazin_Angel 14 years ago

I'm just going to say briefly and without any malicious intent. That I find it quite interesting that you have more than a few issues with this movie, and yet claim to enjoy cannibal holocaust which features ACTUAL animal torture and mutilation.

[–] sarcasm83 15 years ago

I must say; I rooted for Dane and the whole crew throughout the movie and enjoyed their revenge.

BUT I did so by pretty much ignoring Ravi getting killed. I mean Ravi also got some sympathies from me when they broke his camera and how bad they offended him in the beginning etc. and when Dane killed Ravi, I really really did NOT like that and wouldn't have hoped it to gone that way.

That's what did bring the whole movie down a notch, as I thought it was pretty damn great up until that point. Now it was still good, but it did bother me.

And to still clarify why I enjoyed their revenge; I remembered every damn bully I have seen inflict pain - as I was one of the people being abused in school too, but not as badly as some. I actually got bullied because I got in the way of the bullies. Though I was a scrawny normal kid and couldn't stand up to them physically, but I never let that slide without saying anything or trying to help. I really had no problem with anyone in school (except the bullies ofcourse) and I was a good friend to everyone who got bullied and some "popular kids who didn't bully" aswell (The Curtis's). I've always been a "middle-man" and mostly went unnoticed, but as I always defended the bullies, I got my faaaair share of hurt and offense my way for my whole youth.

And whenever I see a flick about revenge towards such ignorant people who laugh at other people's expense for being so weak that they have to; I enjoy with a smile on my face.

I don't really like how you think less about throwing milk cartons and whatnot, when it's not about the single actions of the bullies - it's about them making you fear what and when they again do exactly as they please.

It's not something you can just stop by standing up to them when they've got your hand locked in your back so it's almost breaking and there's no way physically you to get out. I mean sure, you COULD become BRUCE LEE all of a sudden, and kick their ass's into a pile of a-holes, but EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

Though it still doesn't justify killing and torturing people, unless you want to become like them. (Proving only that "If you can't beat em, join em.")

Sure, I've imagined the god awful sadistic things I'd do to some of the worst people I know on this earth. But I know I'm not going to do anything like that as I'm (at least for now) somewhat SANE, and that's the very reason why I take enjoyment on watching it in a fictious piece of entertainment.

So I bet it's more a matter of people wanting to enjoy Dane's revenge for their enjoyment than actually them "accepting his behaviour" (or that kind of behaviour at all from anyone.) And I bet most people are ignoring the whole Ravi scene if they want to enjoy about the whole "they got what they deserved"-factor.

But I understand exactly what you're saying and agree with you in the whole post, I just wanted to clarify why I think it is that people "root for Dane", despite of him killing one of his trustees.

A good flick anyway. And even though I won't do anything to my past's bullies, let's all hope they get cancer ;)

Did anyone else get put off by the fact that they took their masks off? I mean it was cool for Dane to confront the guy, but I hoped they would've put the masks back on as ... well.. it was "COOLER" that way and created more "horrorness" for the flick :D

Edit: Oh and might I add; I've been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder because I'm afraid of social places (especially schools which prevents me from getting more educated, although I know adult schools wouldn't be like that.. I just don't like the idea and being forced to try almost results in a panic attack) and don't trust people to this day. It's gotten worse every year and it's even about my brain not producing enough some chemicals and whatnot... In other words; Such fear of "life" has actually created a "disease" in my brain and I get stressed from way too small things. That's mostly the result of being bullied and having been kicked the *beep* out of by groups of these ignorant a-holes who get their kicks off by hurting people.

So yeah, my life has been insanely hard and pure hell. I'm lonely and un-social and without my will SCARED *beep* to do anything with my life as it always seems to backfire, or at least so my mind thinks.

So YES, mental abuse is a big deal. An no, I'm not one of those tiny emo kids who sometimes choose to act miserable - I've been trying for years to just GO to social events and live a normal life, but I get physical symptoms from trying and I can't do absolutely anything about it.

Not fun people. Mental abuse also leaves scars AND inabilities. I hope people would know that, as I sure do know that now, having witnessed it. I used to be pretty normal a few years ago.. before my "love" tossed me out without warning after 4 years, then I had a crush on a girl who cheated on me, left me and became a pornstar.

It seems every time I almost get up, I get knocked down - luckily I won't stop trying. (BUT considering all this, that's why I said I'm SANE at least for NOW.)

[–] stitch_groover 15 years ago

"However, this movie did a horrible job of giving us any reason to feel for the group of misfits. Why? They portrayed no emotion! The closest I got to feeling sorry for one of them was when Heather, Bridget and Kelly confronted Emily at her locker"

Your points are valid, but I'm afraid I must disagree with you in some areas, mainly in regard to the early characterisation of the "victims" and their motivations. You were very lucky not to have been bullied in school, you're definately one of the minority, and I must admit I'm jealous. Having been bullied, like most people, it was quite easy for me to understand where these people were coming from. In a sick way, they really were living out the fantasy that many people have. One thing you need to understand is that standing up to bullies does not help. In fact, it usually eggs them on further, encouraging them to ramp up their attacks in order to keep you down. Bullying is psychological, it doesn't matter how "buff" you are. I was a tall, well built kid in high school, but because I was a little shy, a year younger than everyone else and probably a bit smarter, I copped it bad.

I recently had to quit my job due to bullying in the workplace. Even now as a grown man, I fantasize about revenge on my tormenter. I wish him to get a painful disease. I want a cancerous tumour to grow out of his eye sockets. I hope he loses permanent control of his bowels. I want everyone to know what he did to me. Of course, I'll never do anything about it, I'm a rational human being. But fantasy is a powerful thing.

I agree with you on where the film disapointed me - when the "victims" began to turn on each other. This is typical in films, I was really hoping that the shared experience would bind them all together and they wouldn't fracture. And I wanted them to release Bridget (the only "bully" I felt sorry for) after she learnt her lesson. Surely, they would have had a modicum of compassion left? I know my experiences have left me with a strong sense of compassion. Perhaps it was an intentional theme of the film (although I doubt it) - that power over others creates a bully, and as the "victims" leader, Dane let the power go to his head, thus become a bully himself.

"... and now I'm off to some charity B.S for knocked up teenage sluts."

[–] ricky_says_hi 15 years ago

i think i can understand the case of Bridget even if i don't like that they still tortured her. they saw things as black and white that all the bullies and their friends were "evil" while someone like Curtis was "good". they expected Bridget to be as evil as Heather and Kelly because she was their friend. but when she stood up and said she wouldn't hurt others that created a sense of grey for them which they didn't like. they wanted themselves to be seen as doing the right thing by torturing the "evil" bullies and they wanted to try and prove that Bridget was just as evil as Heather and Bradley by offering her a chance to save herself by inflicting pain. the bit where Bradley cut her fingers off was meant to motivate her. they were trying to make her like them: to be able to inflict pain after it has been inflicted on you but when she still wouldn't they realised she was out of their control and so disposed of her

i think that Bridget might not have had anything done to her if she hadn't spoken up to Emily. i just think that since Kelly had nothing done to her that Bridget might have been left alone since Heather was the ringleader

There's something about flying a kite at night that's so unwholesome

[–] venusboys3 14 years ago

It was just a movie, and not a very good one... it failed as a revenge movie because it didn't really set up the 'victims' as psycho enough to try to pull off that sort of thing... it didn't set up the 'bullies' as vicious enough to deserve more than a good solid beating.
Besides, I think the worst torture was having to listen to their lame speeches.

It was so dumb and implausible that I can't imagine it inspiring anyone to copycat it. More likely they'd imitate some big budget action-movie revenge thing where the 'hero' guns down villains left and right without any questions about his bloodlust for vengeance.

[–] bob_p_zero-1 14 years ago

White_Dahlia want to thank you for a proper balanced insight into this film. being a revenge style film it gives very little to the virtue of self control.
state of the human conscience i think the problem is the bible is a hated & closed book and because of people with all the "youre all going to burn in hell" stuff doesnt make it come across as inviting. also there seems to be a fact & value dualism, im still learning and trying to understand it. sort of science is set against religion.

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sillyspaghetti 14 years ago

I was mercilessly bullied and tortured as a kid. I was with Dane in principal until he killed Ravi and hurt Curtis.

"Hey! Ladies! That was fun!"