It was a plot, they made it look like the chief tried to kill the other chief, therefore the supreme chief ordered his execution.
So why would he forbid him from taking revenge unless he knew that it was a plot to get the chief killed and was therefore in on it.
If he didn't know, he forbade him to take revenge for what then?
The supreme chief didn't know witchcraft was involved and didn't know it was a set up. The only thing the supreme chief knew is that Lord Asano tried to assassinate Lord Kira. He acted on the law. Gave Lord Asano the death penalty, gave him the option to commit seppuku to bring honor back to his family, and forbade his samurai to take revenge and shame their own families too.
The Samurai kept their mouth shut because they knew screaming witchcraft wouldn't help to save their Lord Asano. They didn't have proof. They decided not to act upon revenge immediately, it would be suicide, because they were outnumbered. They also knew after their deaths after such action their lands and families would be burned. The supreme chief understood taking revenge in such a way would be dishonorable and not lead anyone to the truth.
On another note...
At the end of the film, the ronin, after proving their innocence, must commit seppuku. Even though the Supreme chief was now aware that witchcraft was involved and that the ronin were actually heroes! They all commit seppuku, but why? What honor do they receive here? This honor thing just goes right over my head sometimes.
This film is all about honor. Honor seemed to be their form of justice in the olden days.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" -George Washington
They must commit seppuku at the end because they still committed murder, a crime punishable by death. Despite the evidence to vindicate their actions the Shogun must see that the law is upheld, he does however give them an honourable death deserving of a Samurai as recognition for their honourable actions.
shareNot murder but they disobeyed the order of the Shogun.
The killings were rightful and in accordance with the Bushido.
Ich bin kein ausgeklügelt Buch, ich bin ein Mensch mit seinem Widerspruch.
Conrad Ferdinand Meyer
The supreme chief didn't know witchcraft was involved and didn't know it was a set up. The only thing the supreme chief knew is that Lord Asano tried to assassinate Lord Kira. He acted on the law. Gave Lord Asano the death penalty, gave him the option to commit seppuku to bring honor back to his family, and forbade his samurai to take revenge and shame their own families too.
The Samurai kept their mouth shut because they knew screaming witchcraft wouldn't help to save their Lord Asano. They didn't have proof. They decided not to act upon revenge immediately, it would be suicide, because they were outnumbered. They also knew after their deaths after such action their lands and families would be burned. The supreme chief understood taking revenge in such a way would be dishonorable and not lead anyone to the truth.
That doesn't answer the OP's question. The question is what exactly does the supreme chief think they are avenging if he doesn't know witchcraft was involved or that it was a set up?
Exactly. They should have gone after the shogun next, and taken over.
shareWhat exactly does the supreme chief think they are avenging if he doesn't know witchcraft was involved or that it was a set up?
Actually he just worded my question in a more direct way.
"My response was, The supreme chief understood taking revenge in such a way would be dishonorable and not lead anyone to the truth."
Why would the chief think they need to take revenge for witchcraft if he didn't believe there was witchcraft in the first place and that it was a murder?
i.e Why would he prevent them for taking revenge for something that he doesn't know happened (the witchcraft)?
The Shogun was wise enough to know that the attempted assassination by one of his chiefs was totally out of character, and he most likely suspected that witchcraft was afoot and that it was indeed a set-up. He also realized the samurai/ronin of the set-up chief must feel the same way. However, as already stated above, there was no proof.
It would be dishonorable to take revenge without proof. It would be an affront to their form of justice. Much like our own in the west. Suspicion and proof are two different things.
Knowing that the samurai/ronin are still (and forever) loyal to their chief they may attempt revenge even without it. His warning was basically acknowledgement that he had the same suspicion as them about the involvement of witchcraft, but he forbade them to take any action on it without having to publicly acknowledge his suspicion.
At the end, they are given his justice for disobeying his orders...(there was no getting around it, it had to be death)...but they were given an honorable death option. That above all is the most important thing for a samurai. I imagine even more so for a ronin.
Hope this explanation helps.
On a side note, he probably secretly knew they would disobey his order and attempt revenge. I'm sure he realized that the witch and other chief would be a danger to his realm in the future. It served a purpose for him to allow them all to live and not execute them right then and there.
Good question, never thought of that, also how did the 47 ronin convince the supreme chief that it was an act of revenge and that kiro commited treachery at the end of the movie?
The Shogun can't have his lords killing each other and their underlings taking revenge, he needs stability at the top. The Shogun may or may not have known Asano's was set up but he has to enforce law and order. He may have thought He could still control Kira and politically it may have made sense for the two provinces to marry up together.
shareIt was not a plot to assassinate Kira. Hence the scene where when the Shogun walks in - he walks into Oishi & Mika trying to stop Lord Asano which made it look like Lord Asano has gone mad and made an attempt at Lord Kira's life (very different from plotting to kill someone).
As for why revenge was forbade - I thought the explanation was just simply to keep the peace and prevent a war from both factions.
or (and this i just thought of AFTER the movie)
The shogun forbade revenge in an effort to spare Asano's men; as Bushido code means they must retaliate (and retaliate immediately) and surely would have died as they were currently outnumbered. After all, it seemed the Shogun sympathized with Lord Asano since despite having to uphold the law with a death penalty, he allowed Asano to die by Seppuku; so it may not be that far fetched if the sympathy extended towards Asano's men as well.
So in retrospect, for the shogun to spare Asano's men from death, he actually gave them a reprieve from the Bushido code - a mandatory code which surely would have killed them all.
Agreed. It's interesting that such a possibility occurred to me as well, after I had taken time to reflect.
I still hold out hope that one day an American studio will produce a truly historical film of those extraordinary men.
As for the thoughtless comment below mine, regarding the Shogun: that's just rude. He acted befitting his own culture, in his time. And acted to prevent war. If you read the real tale of the historical 47 Ronin, you will find much to admire. Beyond their remarkable honor, consider their dedication, patience and sacrifice; which remain an inspiration to this day.
"Renoir. I once knew a woman who modeled for Renoir. She smelled of paint..." Michel Simon, The Train (1964)
The shogun is an idiot. Sitting on his high horse making demands. If anything he should of committed seppuku for his awful and misguided judgement.
shareThe shogun might be the high up there but he is still human. He still have limited knowledge and wisdom. And only information provided to him. He made decisions based on that and not all the time they are something just and correct.
For example, George W Bush made the decision to invade Iraq claiming they have WMD. Though they did not find any in the end, he still got away with it and said it is based on intelligence provided to him. He basically murdered a dictator in another country for threat that did not exist. There are other reasons he might have done that but that should be left in another discussion. You get my point on how decision makers sometimes have to make decisions based on limited knowledge of an event.
In the end, he still commanded the ronins honorable death because they disobeyed his direct order. As a shogun, right or wrong, an order is absolute. That is the way of the samurai during those era. It is because of those code of honor that the Japanese was a fomidable opponent during WWII.