First, all of two out of three of these guys are still around, so who knows? We might get more slam-dunks from them. Their great work only appears to be behind them.
DeNiro was also in Joker in 2019, and I really loved that movie. He's also slated for another Scorsese picture...
You already mentioned Pacino doing Once Upon a Time...in Hollywood.
As for Nicholson, he hasn't been seen on screen in awhile, but he hasn't officially called himself out, so... maybe...
Now, as to the ham thing, I think hamming is only applicable when an actor is mugging unnecessarily for a role. Frank Costello was not being played up by Nicholson, but played *right*. Yes, he's bombastic, but he's a bombastic character. Nicholson still gives us layers of character, depth of performance, and the right tone for everything. It's a great role and a great actor.
Pacino, likewise, gets hit for this, but I don't always agree. Take Det. Hanna from Heat. That character, again, is wild, but that works. I can't bring myself to call it "hamming it up" because it's not out of character for the role. It's not uncalled-for. I also thought Pacino had a remarkable amount of subtlety and restraint in The Irishman, and was a lot closer to his Godfather days here.
When it comes to closure, though, you're right here, and I did love that The Irishman brought together a lot of Scorsese's heavy-hitters (Harvey Kietel!) in an incredible movie for at least one more.
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
First, all of two out of three of these guys are still around, so who knows? We might get more slam-dunks from them. Their great work only appears to be behind them.
---
I hope so. One of my beefs with a number of critics is how they seem to take Pacino and DeNiro for granted, with the tone being..."enough already...get 'em out of here." I for one like having them around, still working. I haven't seen everything they have done recently(Pacino in particular seems to have done some straight to video stuff), but when something like The Irishman or Once Upon a Time in Hollywood comes around...they are The Best.
I say that even as I've always had some issues with DeNiro versus Pacino and NIcholson(who is now pretty much retired, I fear.) DeNiro has PLAYED some dumb characters, but in interviews and such, he seems to really BE dumb. It sort of gets in the way of some of his performances, I fear -- like the sharp gambler in Casino. That said, I LOVE his work in Jackie Brown for QT...he plays 80% of the movie near silent and just sitting around looking uncomfortable(and FUNNY.) That he proves deadly in the end was...a surprise.
On the whole, DeNiro managed to win me over. It took decades of movies from him but I have found that as with most great movie stars, when he appears, you know its him, he's an "old friend" (if a rather tempermental one), he's quiet and macho now.
With Nicholson especially and Pacino...no problems whatsover. It has been a great multi-decade journey with those two. Nicholson's ended a decade ago. Pacino's still here (I saw him in person a few years ago giving a talk, and love was in the room.)
CONT
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
DeNiro was also in Joker in 2019, and I really loved that movie.
--
Figure DeNiro has a percentage of that...billion dollar grosser. He's doing FINE -- in a role that I figure Pacino could have played just as well. The two actors constantly joke about each one takes roles from the other.
---
He's also slated for another Scorsese picture...
--
It took forever to get it rolling in the wake of COVID (with Marty and DeNiro as vulnerable older men to the disease.)
Killers of the Flower Moon. Based on a true story about how Native Americans found oil on their reservation -- and started getting murdered by their white spouses and others. DeNiro is the town boss/land baron kingpin. Leo switched from playing the FBI hero to a role as one of the villainous white spouses. Jesse Plemons(from The Irishman) got the FBI guy role. The big deal: DeNiro and Leo for Scorsese.
----
You already mentioned Pacino doing Once Upon a Time...in Hollywood.
--
What great fun it was in 2019 -- just ahead of COVID ruining everything -- to get Pacino in both his first QT movie(a small part) and his first Scorsese movie(in a large part.) Hit my sweet spot. I liked how Pacino got to look better in the QT -- long hair, beard, tan -- but dutifully "uglied up" as Hoffa for Scorsese -- short bowl-cut hair-do, old man's face, etc. Still...his voice and line readings carried the day in both films.
In The Irishman, around the end of the second act, Pacino plays scenes first with Joe Pesci and then with DeNiro...at a testimonial dinner for DeNiro. Pacino just KILLS both of those scenes..with his facial expressions and his barking voice("Look this is simple.this is MY union.")
--
CONT
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
As for Nicholson, he hasn't been seen on screen in awhile, but he hasn't officially called himself out, so... maybe...
--
Rather like Gene Hackman and Sean Connery(now deceased) ..Nicholson didn't make a public announcement of retirement. In all three cases, we just sort of noticed: "Hey, that guy hasn't made a movie in YEARS." Both Hackman and Connery EVENTUALLY confirmed retirement -- Connery when he refused to be in the fourth Indy Jones movie. Nicholson hasn't said anything yet. He was attached to a remake of a German comedy but...it has not materialized.
If we had to lose Nicholson, I'm sorry he didn't stop at The Departed. The Bucket List is just OK(his true final film it would seem) and his long cameo in How Will You Know? isn't much of anything(but he did it as a favor for writer director James Brooks, who gave Nicholson his Oscar roles in Terms of Endearment and As Good As It Gets.)
Looming above all these guys is...Clint Eastwood. About to appear over the title in "Cry Macho" at age 91. He hasn't announced HIS retirement! So maybe any of them could come back...
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
Now, as to the ham thing, I think hamming is only applicable when an actor is mugging unnecessarily for a role.
--
Agreed. I suppose our worst hams in movie history were Jerry Lewis and Jim Carrey-- but each of them won some very young fans on the basis of that acting style.
---
Frank Costello was not being played up by Nicholson, but played *right*. Yes, he's bombastic, but he's a bombastic character. Nicholson still gives us layers of character, depth of performance, and the right tone for everything. It's a great role and a great actor.
--
Totally agreed. Nicholson got some "easy" critical shots at being too much of a ham in The Departed, but for those of us who followed him, nah -- he's the best thing in it. Leo and Matt were new young stars with higher billing, but Jack has a PERSONA...not only a history going back to the sixties, but a face and voice and a line delivery -- he's one of the last "starry stars." Leo (truly a superstar today) and Matt just sort of orbit around Mad Jack in The Departed.
And Costello(based on Whitey Bulger) IS over the top...it is strongly suggested that he is a psychotic as well as a criminal, a mad man who keeps his younger, stronger gang members in line because he is both smarter than them and more unpredictable (plus he has Ray Winstone as his bulky henchman.)
---
CONT
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
Pacino, likewise, gets hit for this, but I don't always agree. Take Det. Hanna from Heat. That character, again, is wild, but that works. I can't bring myself to call it "hamming it up" because it's not out of character for the role. It's not uncalled-for. I also thought Pacino had a remarkable amount of subtlety and restraint in The Irishman, and was a lot closer to his Godfather days here.
---
I think with both Pacino and Nicholson, once they got older and lost the sexual heat of their youth, each man chose to GET "hammier." Pacino with his yelling and smooth vocal flourishes. Nicholson's voice seemed to get deeper -- almost stereophonic -- and his hissed his lines and hit his "T's hard. They were both still handsome men, but they shifted attention to their vocal talents. Interesting: Pacino has stayed forever thin, but Jack had to fight weight issues that further required him to "push his voice as his star thing."
Michael Corleone in the first two movies is famously the "young, brooding Pacino." I see SOME of Michael in The Irishman, but Pacino still brought his "prestige ham" game to the lunch scene with Young Tony("Yuh're late...who wears SHORTS to a meetin?") and the testimonial dinner scenes in The Irishman.
Pacino's Heat guy needed to be that hot -- particularly in conjunction with DeNiro's stoic underplaying. (How handsome those two look together in Heat; by the time we get to The Irishman, their looks are almost completely gone.)
---
CONT
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
When it comes to closure, though, you're right here, and I did love that The Irishman brought together a lot of Scorsese's heavy-hitters (Harvey Kietel!) in an incredible movie for at least one more.
--
Keitel isnt in it much, but he's great when he is...and he goes the furthest back in time with Scorsese...to Scorsese's first film("Who's That Knockin on My Door?") and the lead in Mean Streets(DeNiro is the flashy support.)
It took forever to get made, but The Irishman was a very exciting project in the anticipation: DeNiro returns to Scorsese for the first time since Casino; Pesci returns to MOVIES for the first time in years; Pacino does his FIRST Scorsese movie(and plays his first scenes with Pesci) and...
...Harvey Keitel(the oldest of the bunch) I think...brings it all home.
Plus Ray Romano.
But how's Ray Liotta end up out of it?
Anyway, I(for one) had this great anticipation going for The Irishman but it took so long to get made that QT's return -- with Pacino (and Leo, and Brad) -- in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood...stole some of the heat. Two great movies. One great year . 2019. Before COVID. (And Parasite was OK.)
CONT
reply
share
ecarle (14979)
3 years ago
Coupla last thoughts:
I wanna make sure that I come down TOTALLY in support of the "ham acting of Pacino and Nicholson." Its part of what made them movie stars, and a lot of today's stars don't have it. Back in the day, Cagney and Bogart and John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart had it.
With Connery dead, Hackman retired, Nicholson probably retired, and Pacino and DeNiro biding their time(along with Michael Caine, who seems to have gone quiet in his late 80's, and Specialty Act Clint Eastwood)
...who will BE our great coming older movie stars?
Do we have any?
Yes, I think so. I think Denzel Washington will be one. And Samuel L. Jackson. I was counting on Jeff Bridges, but cancer is dogging him at 70. Which leaves Kurt Russell on deck. Kevin Costner lost his superstardom but he has Oscars and a great older man's face and bearing. Bruce Willis COULD have been one..but has cashed in his career for straight-to-video cash.
Dustin Hoffman's golden years have been shot down: MeToo. Warren Beatty is pretty much gone. Arnold has great charisma but can't seem to get that comeback. Sly Stallone's doing OK but...the face is going. Harrison Ford is playing Indy again at almost 80 but..its not the same.
But none of them seem to have the cachet that Nicholson, Pacino, DeNiro, Connery and Hackman had.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
I hear you 100%. I think what a lot of older stars had was style: panache. Newer stars aren't as starry. Frankly, Old Hollywood was the "starriest".
Costner's on a bit of a comeback.
Frankly, by the time DeNiro and Pacino are finally out, I think we'll be looking at some fascinating "golden years" men. Brad Pitt's already 57. So, by the time this latest batch checks out, we'll get Old Man Brad.
I think Hoffman was done dirty by MeToo. That movement was kinda frustrating for me because I loved the idea of it, and so much of what it did (Weinstein, for instance) was great, but the lack of gradient, recognizing different levels of offence, and the lack of wisdom was maddening. Hoffman's just kinda slowed down a bit, too, though, even before the movement.
Arnold never recovered from being Governor, and especially now that he's back everybody seemed to want to do the "big Arnold comeback action movie", which isn't a good move. Arnold's truly best stuff are the stuff where he's not only an action god, but also has a chance to show off his charisma. You can feel that presence off-screen while watching a movie. He was always so good while having a bit of a wink. They need that more than just Grandpa Gunslinger. They also need to recognize his age. Arnold was never really a great actor, though, and was always 90% persona.
Stallone barbequed himself when he stopped doing insightful character pieces like Rocky and First Blood and started just mashing franchises into the ground and doing predictable, boring action movies.
Tom Cruise might have the most cachet of a star around, but the dude needs to remember that he can do so much more than just action flicks. All he does are solid, dependable (but dull, lackluster) action movies. He needs to get another Vanilla Sky, Magnolia, Born on the Fourth of July, or Collateral.
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
Stallone was really good and gave his all in Copland, highly recommended film.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
I think I heard that was good. That's a recent one, right?
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
Not too recent, almost 30 years old, it's from 1997. It has both de Niro and Keitel as well. He also gives a strong performance in Rocky Balboa.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
For some weird reason, I think I got in mixed up with Samaritan, which is nothing like Copland (at least by description), outside of the fact that the trailer for Samaritan looked good.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
Just want to take a second to remember the great Mean Streets and DeNiro's epic performance there, particularly his entrance into the bar. It's a brilliant shot where you learn everything you need to know DeNiro's character in ten seconds.
I was following the development of The Irishman for a long time, hearing that DeNiro would be back working with Scorsese, I was already excited, and then Pacino signed on and I was REALLY hyped up.
Yeah, Pesci, too. He seemed to have aged the most, I thought. They're all old men, but something about Pesci just seemed much older.
I wonder if Liotta even watched the movie. He might've been really bitter. Liotta was one of those guys who kinda should have made it more than he did. Yes, Goodfellas alone would give him a credible CV, but he never went "A-list", and he never even did another Scorsese flick, and that must've stung him a little, especially watching guys like DiCaprio get more kicks at the can.
I still haven't seen Parasite. I'd like to, I just haven't.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
I still say Pacino isn't overplaying, even when he's playing the roles amped up. I'm not saying he doesn't get fiery - who could deny it? - but rather that he's doing what the role requires.
I do think I know what you mean, though, and I generally agree.
Heat is one of the most underrated movies of all-time. It's well-regarded, sure, but it should be spoken of in the same breath that people speak of Goodfellas, or The Third Man, and it's not. Heck, I think The Usual Suspects gets more love, and Heat is superior - in my opinion.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
Yeah. I think some of this, for me, is because I hear a lot of people complaining, "Oh, the old acting (referring to anything from the '30s to the '70s) is so corny, it's so fake and cheezy!" and they blame people for playing the same role all the time or hamming it up, and it bugs me because they can't see the craft there. They see a persona like Jack or Humphrey Bogart and say they're mugging, hamming, or only playing one role.
Really? Watch As Good As it Gets and The Shining and tell me Jack is always doing one role. Watch Sabrina, follow it up with The Caine Mutiny, and say Bogart is always the same. Watch the subtlety in Casablanca or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Hamming? I don't think so.
Nicholson stealing the show in The Departed is a true testament, because everybody does a great performance in that movie. Mark Wahlberg does, for crying out loud! Martin Sheen, Alec Baldwin - everybody. So for Nicholson to rise up: magnificent!
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
This is my issue as well when they say Pacino changed, no he didn't. They say he screamed more in tgf3 than in tgf2, not true, rewatch it and count the times he shouted in both films. These are the same people that never saw his other 70s films where he shouted, Pacino has always liked doing that. He wanted to play Sonny in TGF. They say he has no range but he is the only actor who can play 3 gangsters with vastly different characters with nothing in common: Michael Corleone, Tony Montana, and Lefty Ruggiero.
What people see as change, is Pacino losing his boyish baby face of the 70s and his soft quiet voice. But watch his eyes, facial expressions and mannerisms, you'll recognize the same thing from the 70s popping up in the 90s and post 00s.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
That's a good point about Pacino. I think he continues to be a major talent. I do wish films would encourage him to go more subtle than big - save the big stuff for big moments - but The Irishman actually does do this. Pacino shows a deft, beautiful amount of control and range. There's a huge difference between "public Jimmy" and "private Jimmy," and I'm amazed that people just go, "Oh, he just hammed it up." Frankly, I think people go into Al Pacino movies expecting him to be a ham, then he doesn't sit in a corner mumbling, and as soon as he raises his voice even a little - or gestures slightly - they go, "See? Total ham."
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
I agree, we do get to see his more quiet moments but they're in a lot of non-mob films. Personally I am not much of a fan of Angel In America as a miniseries, it's just not my type of thing. I'm from the Philippines so I think it may be a cultural difference, but Pacino here gives a devastating quiet performance. He is intense, creepy, scary, dangerous yet very charismatic. I watched that just for him alone.
Also people just cannot let go of his gravelly voice, and blame his acting for the voice change.
One thing Pacino does is elevate whatever film he is in, be it a great, good, ok, mediocre or bad film. He always gives his best, and you can trash the bad film, but you always live with a good impression of Al. He never lost that spark, that glint in his eye, that burst of energy or passion residing within him unlike many others. He is absolutely my favorite actor.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
I haven't seen Angels in America, but I've heard great things. I think he did turn his attention more towards the stage at some point, though, and if you've ever seen Looking for Richard, you can see him do some great work with Shakespeare.
I agree that he elevates work. I thought The Righteous Kill was pretty humdrum and mediocre (not bad, just not good), but I also thought Pacino clearly brought his A-game to the table. If everybody had been as interesting to watch as he was, that movie would be a classic. De Niro felt a little sleepy in it. He seemed bored or something.
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
I love Looking for Richard!
Righteous Kill was OK for me. I can watch any of his mediocre films usually because of him alone except for Cruising and 88 Minutes. His accent in Revolution is cringe for me too, and tbh, he gives his best but I feel like he does not belong in the setting. I used to think he might be more at home in urban period crime films (except Sicily lol), but he was also great in The Merchant of Venice. That's a medieval setting.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
I had the same skepticism regarding his ability to seem anything less than modern, but he handles Shakespeare so deftly that any "Al Pacino, method actor" goes right out of one's head.
Some actors always feel contemporary, but it turns out Pacino isn't one of them.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
Hackman and Connery both said they were retired when asked, yeah, and as you say, Nicholson hasn't officially confirmed it. But, generally I think you're right: he's out. Maybe he can do a voice-over. After all, Connery came back to record the voice for the video game of From Russia with Love.
Eastwood's a workhorse, and the MAN. I watched The Mule quite recently and loved it. Apparently he's a real "clean living" guy. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Nicholson's (demi?) retirement is related to memory loss or something like that. Maybe he partied a little hard (including on-set in Easy Rider), but Eastwood's still sharp as a razor blade.
Maybe Eastwood can convince Jack to do a supporting role in his next big picture.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
2019 was a great year for movies! I saw a lot of stuff last year because a lot of stuff interested me, moreso than other years.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
3 years ago
Agreed. Pacino and De Niro have it in them. I always think that these days it's a question of getting the right scripts and the right director - something that's not only great, but a project and a person who can ignite passion in them.
Pacino has a lot of live theatre credibility. Have you seen Looking for Richard? It gives us a taste of stage Pacino and he is mighty.
I don't think DeNiro is dumb, I just think he's painfully shy. I read a book by a guy who worked in the industry and he talked about DeNiro (before he was *the* DENIRO) barely being able to make eye contact; the guy is a huge introvert.
It is a shame Nicholson is retired.
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
Also Pacino's character in Heat is a cokehead.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
Yeah, I know that was part of the character's backstory that was worked out by Pacino and Mann - or, at least, that's what I heard. But whatever the source of the behaviour, it really works for Vincent Hanna to go off like that. It's a justified, nuanced performance, not just an actor going haywire and mugging or chewing scenery.
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
They should release an extended edition that has more scenes that refer to that edition.
Funny thing, I recently watched an interview of Pacino talking about Heat and he was 'chipping' and recently rewatched The Panic in Needle Park and Pacino keeps saying he's only 'chipping.'
I'm re-binging him right now and will watch his 70s films, then switch to his later scenes and you can see the same mannerisms that pop up in different decades.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
Heat's pretty much perfect, in my opinion, and I'm not saying I wouldn't watch an extended edition, but I don't feel like I need it.
Is "chipping" drug slang? I've heard a lot of it, but never "chipping".
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
Yes, apparently it means he's not really using regularly but will use here and there. However in PINP, despite him saying that, he was a drug addict or close enough that he became a full blown drug addict. I imagine he got that terminology from this film. On the imdb trivia, it says that even after production Al couldn't shake off the character and would continue to hang out in Needle Park after filming stopped.
reply
share
Ace_Spade (9544)
6 months ago
I always think that's a sign of bad craftsmanship for actors. They should not be harming themselves to work. It'd be like if a psychiatrist started having psychotic breaks after dealing with psychotic patients, or if a construction worker was doing their job without a hardhat. Plenty of actors learn how to do superlative work without taking it home with them. I love Pacino's work, but I really hope that he isn't regularly damaging his psyche and/or personal life to make audiences happy.
reply
share
[email protected] (2017)
6 months ago
I have not read his biography and have no plans until after he passes, at the very least. So idk how his mind works when he inhabits a character. But he has said that Michael Corleone was hard to shake off after he did it. So perhaps in his youth, he had a harder time shaking off certain characters than he does them now. Laurence Olivier heard Dustin Hoffman tell of his method acting for Marathon Man, he didn't sleep the whole night to get into the character's psyche, etc . He replied, 'my boy have you ever tried acting?' Lol.
reply
share