Okay, it was original and new, but it ruined the entire story for me. Jason Bourne was badass because he was a human being trained to the max, and even though his skills were over-the-top, at least he got it through training. Now it's basically Captain America. I hate it when characters get their powers through serums/pills/freak accidents etc.. Okay, I get it, the main characters running out of pills brings some tension but it isn't what I want to see in a Bourne movie.
I know what you mean it's a "retcon". But I thought the idea with genetic manipulation through a retro virus actually made the universe more believable.
Wait... is it a retcon or just an evolution of the protocol?
Think about the advantages of using drugs over training. The effect is instantaneous, saving the expense of training. It also tethers the agents to the drug, ensuring they don't go rogue when they start having second thoughts about the morality of their work.
I didn't get the sense they were saying this was how Bourne got his abilities. That would make no sense.
Well it's a retcon because it's a major element that was introduced retroactively that wasn't even hinted at in the first three movies. And since Jason Bourne was in the same group it stands to reason he was an early prototype.
And since Jason Bourne was in the same group it stands to reason he was an early prototype.
Wait... is that right? Bourne was part of Operation Treadwell. Cross is part of Operation Outcome, which I thought was a kind of "next generation" program. We do see Bourne's name in the cabin, but that just means they used the same training facility.
Well I'm not 100% sure but I thought they just renamed the essentially same organisation to stay below the radar. But the long time frame and the people involved (Jason and the bad guys from the first movie) makes it look like it.
It's possible I guess that Jason Bourne was one of the first to get this treatment and got "weaned off" and they only added the addictive quality of the drug later, actually as a response to Jason Bourne going AWOL. It would explain why Jason Bourne was such a "superman".
Well, I agree it isn't clear, but I got the distinct impression Treadwell and Outcome were supposed to be different projects, developed in cooperation with two different companies, all under the super soldier umbrella. This becomes clearer when you read these production notes I found online:
They shared some aspects in common, but the virus/pills were specific to Outcome. The science was developed at the lab where Dr. Shearing worked. She had interactions with all of the Outcome participants. As far as I know, there's never any clear suggestion Bourne was one of her patients, that he took any pills, or that he was exposed to any virus.
I guess what I don't get is, why insist it's a retcon when there's no logical reason it has to be that? I mean, I get that you find this satisfying as an explanation for Bourne's abilities. But it introduces all kinds of potential plotholes that are easily avoided by the explanation I offered.
They make it very clear in Legacy that Bourne had no genetic tampering, being one of the original Treadstone agents. Bourne and the rest of the Treadstone assassins were the result of intense training and behaviour modification, with no physical enhancement.
Well I'm not 100% sure but I thought they just renamed the essentially same organisation to stay below the radar. But the long time frame and the people involved (Jason and the bad guys from the first movie) makes it look like it.
It's possible I guess that Jason Bourne was one of the first to get this treatment and got "weaned off" and they only added the addictive quality of the drug later, actually as a response to Jason Bourne going AWOL. It would explain why Jason Bourne was such a "superman".
Like I said I think it is a "good retcon".
The Treadstone and Blackbriar agents were not genetically enhanced by magic pills. Aside from that, Aaron Cross wasn't part of the C.I.A. Treadstone and Blackbriar programs. Aaron Cross was in a Defense Department program. We saw part of Jason Bourne's training in Bourne Ultimatum, remember? We saw lots of water-boarding, but no magic pills.
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Yes yes it was just a theory lol. The other two guys who replied already convinced me ;) But a strong hint that it is all the same thing under different labels is that in the cabin you see Jason Bournes name in the bunk. There are lots of other hints.
> Wait... is that right? Bourne was part of Operation Treadwell. Cross is part of Operation Outcome, which I thought was a kind of "next generation" program.
At one point, Cross asks Marla how many people were in the program and she says that there were nine and then six. Maybe there were 15 overall or maybe there were nine and three died.
-- What Would Jesus Do For A Klondike Bar (WWJDFAKB)?
In The Bourne Identity, as The Professor is dying, he says something along the lines of "Treadstone sent pills, they said go to Paris...". So it is something that was mentioned early on, then left hanging until Gilroy graduated from screenwriter to director.
In The Bourne Identity, as The Professor is dying, he says something along the lines of "Treadstone sent pills, they said go to Paris...". So it is something that was mentioned early on, then left hanging until Gilroy graduated from screenwriter to director.
He was talking about pills for the horrible headaches all of the Treadstone agents experienced as a result of the behavior modification (can you say torture?) they went through. The Professor asked Bourne if he still had the headaches and Bourne told him yes.
I don't understand why so many people are willing to believe that Jason Bourne was in a magic pill enhancement program like Aaron Cross when we saw part of his training in Bourne Ultimatum. Not once did Dr. Hirsch feed him pills or threaten to withhold any pills if he didn't do what they wanted.
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Maybe the drugs were that was the point. They wanted to make this one about a new agent that couldn't overshadow Jason Bournes Natural Skill level. This guy stands out because he questions what these people make him do. Just like Jason Bourne did once he got hit in the head hard enough (or shot in the back really.) Just my perspective anyway.
So OP can accept that in the first film of the series, the protagonist survived being shot in the back twice into the ocean face first and survived via "training", but can't buy actual science? Yeah, next time do some research and when you have a thought, don't bother to post about it.
One gay beer for my friend here, because he's gay, and one normal beer for me, since I'm normal.
This "chems" nonsense was a load of *beep* effectively making them genetically engineered supermen! Jason Bourne was far more enjoyable as a normal soldier perverted through excessive training and brain washing techniques. Because of this he was almost an automaton with no self will doing whatever his masters commanded. These chemmed up supermen were far too independent and self willed to be that formidable and threatening.
Except that, the chems, aren't the part that actually has effective them, its gene splicing which Marta mentions to Aaron. But do keep in mind that we have already cloned sheeps and horses...something that seems like complete b.s....lets also keep in mind that we have in this age, the ability to heal wounds with a gel, surgical blades 100x thinner than a hair, and pills that literally make you ignore fatigue...
They weren't supermen, they were genetically enhanced soldiers, something already experimented on years before the movies came out.
One gay beer for my friend here, because he's gay, and one normal beer for me, since I'm normal.
They weren't supermen, they were genetically enhanced soldiers, something already experimented on years before the movies came out.
Yes, drugs and supplements like these are not new to the military and likely to be a strong part of any future covert soldier. Like drones and technology are taking away need for lots of grunt boots on the ground, enhanced special ops are getting to crucial for certain types of .... BZZZZZ <burtle> *fzzzzzzzzzz*
... [[CLICK]]
Never mind. Go on about your business. Nothing to see here.
Bourne was not medically enhanced. I think you missed out on a huge part of the plot.
There are 3 programs discussed in the film, with others hinted at but not named.
Treadstone ~ This is the original super spy training program. This is what Bourne went through, psychological and physical training that breaks them down and builds them back up in ways that go beyond standard military training
Outcome ~ This is the super spy training + genetic modification. She explains that they are able to change genetics by up to 1.5% by using a virus to deliver genetic information into the subject. This is what Aaron is a part of in the Bourne Legacy
They both use the same training facility (as seen in the cabin carving). It's explained right near the beginning of the film that these were supposed to be run by different departments but that with the hearings on Treadstone going public it was going to be discovered that both programs shared data with each other. This is all covered in the scene where those films are being shown at the start and they talk about why the programs need to be hidden.
It's the entire catalyst for shutting down Outcome, to hide it because Treadstone is going public and the hearings might find out Outcome exists when it shouldn't.
In the same conversation he mentions they can keep the science they discovered and use it in new programs later. He then gives the order to kill all outcome agents.
Later in the movie they activate LARX.
Up until that point in the movie LARX was supposedly a proposal. Turns out they had it active as a prototype in secret and even fewer people knew about it.
LARX is explained as beta-2 stem program; amped mission fidelity, minimized empathy. Treatstone without the inconsistancy, Outcome without the emotional noise.
Basically when Larx-3 goes active (the guy from Bangkok) they are admitting that another secret program exists and they are calling in a prototype to wipe out the last of Outcome (outcome-5).
So you see? Treadstone wasn't genetic modification but the results were inconsistent. Only Jason Bourne remains alive from that program and we all know how that turns out from the first 3 films.
Outcome is a genetic modification program built on top of Treadstones methods, but the results created emotional inconsistency. This is also hinted at by their conversation at the beginning in the cabin about falling in love. Something they are obviously discouraged from. The drug dependence was not only the delivery system but made them easy to wipe out if the program needed to be shut down. Only outcome-5 remains alive (which is the entire point of Bourne Legacy was to watch him escape and get off the drugs)
Which leaves us with LARX which wasn't even supposed to exist. Larx-3 is the guy from Bangkok sent after outcome-5. While he wasn't particularly successful it leaves the question of how many more LARX are there? How many other spin off programs exist based on the earlier Treadstone and Outcome projects?
That's the legacy. Treadstone was just the beginning.
I think a huge number of people missed these messages and did not truly understand the film or it's plot at all.