Amazing... - Apparitions (2008) Discussion

[–] sparkey-5 16 years ago

Don’t worry.
The unholy trinity of The Daily Mail, Guardian and Daily Express
are already on the case.
If they do not like the horror show, nobody will watch it.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] man_of_stars 16 years ago

I find it peculiar that people seem to think that the gay priest was killed for being gay. He was killed for being a friend of Jacob, and Jacob recited prayers of protection to try to save his friend. Sadly, they weren't effective enough.
They don't say that being an atheist means you need to be exorcised, but seeing as this show is built on catholic exorcism, it's not strange that it would be easier for a demon to possess an atheist than a person that was already protected through his faith. It doesn't mean that the atheist is a bad person, especially as the show is created by people who aren't actually Christian.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

At last people talking some sense.
Thank you

Bean Girl: Charlie Darling
...The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

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[–] steve-thompson25 16 years ago

I'm not going to waste anyone's time repeating the well-argued rebuttals of this bizarre posting. All I would add is that I, as a committed atheist and adherent of Dawkins, have found this series thus far to be an excellent and compelling piece of drama which stands comparison to both The Omen and The Exorcist. Have I been possessed? Found God? No, but I have been able to suspend my disbelief sufficiently to accept that, in a world where God and the Devil did exist, then such a stories could happen. So long as the plots in Apparitions remain faithful to the "what-if" parameters laid down by its creator (that's small "c"!) I won't need Faith (capital "F") to enjoy it!
This is the same logic that allows me also to enjoy super-hero comics without having to believe in the existence, or possibility of, real-life super-heroes.

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

This is the same logic that allows me also to enjoy super-hero comics without having to believe in the existence, or possibility of, real-life super-heroes.

True

Bean Girl: Charlie Darling
...The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

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[–] Rowena83 16 years ago

I don't get all the fuss that's being made over this show.

As far as I am concerned, it's pure comedy. Something to watch with your friends and have a good laugh about as its ridiculous premise is unintentionally truly outrageously hysterical.

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[–] Potterreader35 16 years ago

That works if you come in halfway through the episode having never watched it before. My husband did that last night, and he was all "WTF?"

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[–] Potterreader35 16 years ago

adherent of Dawkins

It's like atheists now have their own religious leader these days.

I'm a Christian wading through "The God Delusion" at the moment, for my sins. I'm reading it to discuss with an atheist friend. I don't like it. Have you read it? I wouldn't mind his arguments if he didn't make everything so personal. It's like a peevish bitter man settling all his grudges with every religious person he ever met. I'd love to be bowled over with the amazing clarity of his belief in evolution but I can't understand the science of it, and him telling me over and over about how brilliant and simple it is doesn't help. It's like my school physics teacher who kept telling me that this impossibly difficult thing is "a piece of cake", it just made me feel even more disheartened!

I like your super hero analogy, that makes sense.

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

I'm a Christian wading through "The God Delusion" at the moment, for my sins. I'm reading it to discuss with an atheist friend. I don't like it. Have you read it?

I did try to read it, I really did. My cousin loaned it to me ages ago and I struggled.
I agree with you, as I said in another thread I felt as if it was a long rant.

The problem with Evolution is that it is a theory and as my biology teacher put it, 'It takes as much faith to believe in it as it does for the Theory of Creation'.
It has not been proven.

Bean Girl: Charlie Darling
...The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

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[–] Potterreader35 16 years ago

I agree.

But I think Creation/evolution is such a big fat red herring, someone needs to throw both back into the sea and start again. I mean, it is not a deal-breaker for Christians so it ought not to be for atheists. Maybe God created Adam and Eve after the Big Bang. Maybe God used evolution to work out his purposes. There are faults with evolutionary theory based on the fact that Darwin lived in an era with pretty rubbish microscopes... they used to believe that some life generated out of purely nothing - nowadays scientists could see that germs and viruses and spores of fungus grow out of something - so Darwin had a shaky foundation on which to build his theory. Anyway...... it's a red herring and I wish Dawkins would stop acting like "all Christians are stupid dogmatic Creationists" cos we're not.

What other thread? I'm not familiar with your work.

I'm going to read the whole book and I'm going to write a long and brilliant critique, oh yes. But really I haven't got much to say about his science, it's more about his very personal and ad hominem ranting that I have a lot to say. Like the way every time he refers to another atheist it's "brilliantly insightful comment from x" this and "insightfully, wisely, x said this" and it's "knuckle-headed moron Christian said that," (well, maybe not in so many words.) It's like he has to persuade everyone over and over again, every single bleeding line, "I hate Christians! Yes, I still hate them and think they're stupid just in case you'd forgotten since reading the last 300 paragraphs I wrote! Yes, they're still stupid!" Dawkins, WE GET IT.

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

What other thread? I'm not familiar with your work.

It was a comment I had made in another thread on this board about faith being the willingness to believe and that Evolution being a theory takes the same amount of belief as Creation so Atheists are just the same as Christian except that they have chosen different Gods.

Jesus versus Scientists.

(I did not use so many words in my other post)

Bean Girl: Charlie Darling
...The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

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[–] holydave 16 years ago

"The problem with Evolution is that it is a theory and as my biology teacher put it, 'It takes as much faith to believe in it as it does for the Theory of Creation'.
It has not been proven."

Well that's a crock.

Sorry, that was rude, but for a person who has admitted to finding the God Delusion to have been a struggle, agreeing with somebody who found the theory impossible to grasp, I don't think you are in any position AT ALL to be making points about evolution.

I know you've probably heard this before, but evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory based on masses of evidence cumulated over 150 years. Creation (I refuse to call it the 'Theory of Creation', as it is based on no scientific fact whatsoever) requires a massive leap of faith in that there is absolutely no evidence to support it, unless you count the asinine and circumstantial, like pointing at a banana and saying "ooh it's got five ridges and is easy to peel, it must have been designed!"

Incidentally, the cavendish variety of banana (the yellow tasty one that we all eat) HAS been designed, but by humans over a period of approximately 10000 years (since before the creation of the earth, apparently). The original was quite an unpleasant savoury husk with a bit of flesh in it.

----------------------
Workers of all countries, unite! You have nothing to loose but your chains.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

Unless you are a Puritan and believe in a literal interpretation
of the Bible. Then you will also doubt the earth is 4.5 Billion years
old,as demonstrated by NASA, and say its only a few thousand years old.

Hi, is this aimed at me?
Or is this in reference to Holydave and the banana?

Please clarify.

I am an atheist/agnostic now, but it's a mistake to compare science
and religion. Apples and bananas.

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that the doctrines and the bases behind science and Religion are gained in totally different ways but that does not mean a Scientist can not believe in God or that a Priest can not be a scientist.

Something you kind of mentioned in your post.

Although I disagree that you can not compare science with religion.
Both strive to prove the existence of life and all things related to it.
Think of it in the sense of Insurance or a car.
Two companies selling you the same thing but with different polices or features, which do you chose?
The only way to do so is to compare.

Looking at religion and science from a layman's point of view.
A lot of what science tells us we have to take on faith. The theory of Super Strings and quarks for example.
I have never seen any of these things and only know about them from television, books, the internet or through some lectures.
I believe in them because someone important explained these theories with equations using figures and letters.

The same with my doctor. I tell her that I am ill and she prescribes me something.
Most times it is unpronounceable but I have faith that she knows what she is doing and that it will cure me.

What about Reki?

Many people claim to be cured of their illnesses by FAITH alone, no pills, just their belief.

To a lot of people the unintelligible theories and facts behind science can seem the same as that of religion.

Think of the Large Hadron Collider, which is looking for what some are now calling the God Particle.
The creators of it are basing it all on the theory, belief and certain hope that through their fantastic and very exciting experiment, they will discover the Higgs Boson. The God Particle.
I have followed this experiment and have studied it as a novice and although I am sure I am just as excited and everyone else, I can not say I truly understand it all and just have faith in the people involved that they do.

When it re-starts next summer maybe all this will be unnecessary but until then I will continue to wait for all the facts.

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

Hi Holydave, apology accepted.

for a person who has admitted to finding the God Delusion to have been a struggle, agreeing with somebody who found the theory impossible to grasp, I don't think you are in any position AT ALL to be making points about evolution.

First off, The God Delusion is not the be all and end all of the Theory of Evolution, it is just one man's writings. I am in a very good position to make any point about evolution seeing as how I studied it and was raised with it. I have read many books on the matter even Darwin's, Origin of species
I said I struggled with Dawkins' book, not the Theory of Evolution.
I found the man narrow minded and ranty. Something I am allowed to do.
Also agreeing with someone who found the theory impossible to grasp is fine too.
Many people do because it is a massive theory to grasp. Not everyone is happy to be spoon fed and choose to question and dig further, do a bit more research and find out that there are 'Missing links' in the Theory of Evolution too.

Secondly, so what if Evolution is based on Scientific fact, science can be wrong and has been many times.
The theory of Evolution as you say has only been around for 150 years.

Thirdly, I am allowed to quote what my Biology teacher told me. He did not believe in Creation at all but in Evolution, which is what he taught us.

Fourthly, the Theory of Evolution is unproven. It may be widely supported by the scientific community but so far it is unproven as is the Theory of Creation. You may choose not to call it a theory but it is, which is wildly supported by the Religious community.
As they are both Theory's and are both unproven and are both wildly supported, I feel I can state that to believe in one over the other takes faith and belief in the people putting forward the theory.

Lastly, I am allowed to believe in either Creation or Evolution, in fact if I chose I can believe Eric Von Daniken's Theory and believe that aliens seeded the Earth.
Unless you have managed to do what no one else has and proven The theory of Evolution?
Seeing as how none of them have been proven, if one of them had, it would debunk the rest and we would not be having this discussion.

Who knows, maybe in another thousand years there might be another theory. We are discovering things all the time?

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Charlie_1701 16 years ago

I agree the story arc is beautiful.

Wonderful refreshing drama and I think like Waking the Dead and Life on Mars, we should be given more.

Bean Girl: Charlie Darling
...The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few...

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[–] Potterreader35 16 years ago

Good post.

I see I'm now considered the dunce of the thread for not being able to understand what Dawkins says in his book. Good job I'm not an intellectual snob who thinks people are only worthy if they're evolutionary scientists with brains the size of planets. There's so much more to life than being clever at science.

And at least I'm willing to admit I don't really understand Dawkins' miserable ranting book. I mean the science bits.

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[–] Valjean24601 16 years ago

Don't worry about not being able to understand what Dawkins wrote in his book. Dawkins actually talks about evolutionary psychology in The God Delusion which is more complicated and controversial than standard evolution.

The evidence for normal evolution is much more easier to understand and virtually impossible to dispute.

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[–] Potterreader35 16 years ago

The thing is, I'm in a quandary, because I'm a bit lazy, and it's like, should I wrestle to understand something when I know I disagree with it anyway? It's like whether I should read the Qu,ran and understand every verse when I'm a Christian and not a Muslim. Life is short, time is limited, and if I'm going to study anything in great depth it should surely be my own holy book over anyone else's.

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[–] berts1404 16 years ago

Mental illness is caused by demonic possession, gay people deserve to be killed, everybody who reads Dawkins needs to be exorcised, the Holocaust was caused by the devil and Satan speaks in Albanian.

It's fantasy you retard, you do know that demonic possession, exorcism and Satan aren't real, right?

"The eyes are the nipples of the face"

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[–] Valjean24601 16 years ago

I half agree with some of what the OP saying about this although he is raving a bit. Clearly he doesn’t say everyone who reads Dawkins needs exorcising. When the little girl showed the books about atheisms to Father Jacob he dismisses that as a reason to believe he was possessed by a demon by saying he had read some of them himself.

However, the thing that makes this different from most fantasy programs is that there are Christians who strongly believe that some atheists have been tricked or possessed by Satan. There are Christians who believe in people being visited by saints.

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[–] Jayemm 16 years ago

There may be a little spoiler in here (just read it back!) - so if you have not yet watched the final episode, you may not want to read to the end!

Have just finished watching the final episode tonight and what a gripping finale to, what I think, has been a great series.

Just to make a few things clear: I am not a Catholic, although I am married to one. I used to describe myself as agnostic and more recently atheist and am currently struggling through Dawkins book! But while I find organised religion distasteful at times, I respect and sometimes envy those who have faith.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this series, although I don't believe in God, possession, demons and the rest of it. I thought that the acting was very good, and the idea of a priests faith being tested compelling.

As for the comparisons with mental health, well I suppose that in times gone by most cases of possession could probably be explained away as just that. I have a family member with dementia and much of his behaviour could be taken, if one were devoutly religious, as indiciative of him being possessed.

It is an interesting view to consider. Jacob is even recommended to undergo a period of psychiatric counselling before anyone will even consider exorcism and the scenes where he see's Michael but no-one else does, reminds me of when my relative beckons and talks to unseen people.

But overall it has been good to watch something on tv that has been intelligent, thought provoking and compelling. I really do hope it returns for a second series.

And I say I'm dead ... and I move

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[–] Valjean24601 16 years ago

I’m an agnostic and I’ve enjoyed the series too.

The thing about it is though that if someone was acting the way the possessed people act in the series in real life, any reasonable person would assume that they had psychiatric problems and need psychiatric care. If you found out a Catholic priest had tried to deal with their problems by exorcising them, you would be appalled.

Okay Father Jacob has had experiences that means he knows better. The problem I have is that at times I often imagine fundie Christian wackjobs watching the show and nodding their heads sagely and reflecting on how much the show reflects real life.

There’s a bit at the end where Father Jacob is talking to the psychiatrist and he goes through all the evidence that there has been demonic activity and therefore that God exists. She refuses to accept the incontrovertible evidence. When I was watching that I could just imagine many Christians thinking to themselves, that’s just how atheists act in real life.

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[–] 16 years ago

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