Apologies if this has been asked a million times but I heard there's an alternate theory other than Teddy is crazy where He is being brainwashed and I can't figure out how any of that would fit
Not everything about the commonly believed theory fits either though
Can someone explain to me what the brainwashing theory is please?
Not everything about the commonly believed theory fits either though
Its true. There are lot of inconsistencies in the mainstream theory i.e. Teddy is Andrew and insane (TiA) as well as one can find it in Teddy is Teddy and sane (TiT). Its a paradoxical outcome and Scorsese managed it brilliantly.
Can someone explain to me what is please?
To me, Teddy was lured into the island. The doctors were experimenting on patients and they needed a right candidate to test a sane person using their knowledge of drugs. Teddy was the right one as he was already looking into the place. The cave lady says that it takes 36 to 48 hours for the drugs to reach workable levels. At the end in the lighthouse, they brainwashed Teddy who was at the peak of drug action. But the experiment failed and Teddy started to come back to reality. Since there was no chance of escape, he decides to discredit the doctors. Last line goes perfectly well....'this place makes me wonder....which is worse? To live as a monster (people like doctors) or die as a good man (people like him)"
You can see that at the end, the doctors used everything that they learned from Teddy himself on the island. They didn't have any evidences of court orders or newspaper cutouts for Teddy's crime. Neither did the doctors got surprised to see Teddy readily walking towards the orderlies at the end; they wouldn't because they weren't treating a patient. Read more about MK Ultra and Operation Paperclip on the net.
Most important thing to know is that the movie's editing matters the most. Its very abruptly done and have specifically left out key details and backstories which would make any of the theories more obvious. The female patient drinking water with no glass in her hand is one symbolic reference that the movie does not show everything and not everything which is shown is to be perceived as truth.
'Shutter Island' itself is an anagram to 'Truths and Lies'.
I think Scorsese's emphasis for the movie's outcome is made clear through cave lady's dialog. "Once you're declared insane, anything you do is called part of that insanity." "That's a Kafkaesque genius of it." Scorsese leaves it on the audience and its on to us to recognize the abuse and do a rational analysis or to go with conventional following.
I strongly believe that he was crazy and not brainwashed because of this reason:
Let's say that he really was Teddy Daniels, a detective who never stepped foot on the island or had children. If that's the case, then how was he able to dream of their faces long before Cawley shown him pictures of the kids in the lighthouse if he never seen them before?
I strongly believe that he was crazy and not brainwashed because of this reason:
Let's say that he really was Teddy Daniels, a detective who never stepped foot on the island or had children. If that's the case, then how was he able to dream of their faces long before Cawley shown him pictures of the kids in the lighthouse if he never seen them before?
I believe that the film can be interpreted both ways (although I tend to support Teddy is Teddy take).
The movie has a paradoxical outcome. It leaves out any such information and back stories which would make any particular interpretaiton more obvious. The lady with missing glass scene, to me is a symbolic reference to the editing saying that you are not shown everything.
My signature was created when some thick headed people used to perceive things as fact only if it comes from the movie. Some users used to claim that Teddy interviewed and went through only two of the patient's files i.e. Peter Breene and Bridget Kearns. The line 'Next we have Peter Breene' is said by Teddy while going through patients' files before interviewing the first patient i.e. Peter Breene which clearly suggests that Teddy went through more than two patients' files AND IT WAS NOT SHOWN IN THE FILM.
The doctors told Teddy that Rachel Soland is a patient who drowned her own kids. Dr. Cawley also had a patient file (fake one) of Rachel Solando. Looking at Teddy's adept & skilled cop character, its obvious that he would first ask to go through the file of the patient whom he is investigating for. He could have seen the photographs of the kids in that file, not shown in the film.
The same night, he started having dreams of Rachel Solando (we saw Teddy seeing the photo of Rachel Solando in the movie) and the girl which his mind superimposed on the image of dead mother-daughter he saw in Dachau.
This is my interpretation and/or speculation you may call it. Whereas going through rest of many inconsistencies in TiA theory and backed with some of the obvious evidences that back TiT theory, I tend to support the TiT theory.
The movie has a paradoxical outcome. It leaves out any such information and back stories which would make any particular interpretaiton more obvious.
Twisted, circular logic to say the support for irrational interpretation of the story is that there is no true support.
which clearly suggests that Teddy went through more than two patients' files AND IT WAS NOT SHOWN IN THE FILM.
False equivalence. You are saying you can't differentiate between a meaningless assumption (that Teddy knows who is being interviewed somehow, which is meaningless to either TIT or TIA) and a fundamental foundation of the stupid TIT interpretation (that the doctors through some impossible technique implanted memories into his brain as your friends here have claimed, AND WE ARENT SHOWN THIS?!?).
You can't be a critical thinker if you don't understand THAT IMPLANTING MEMORIES WOULD BE SO CRUCIAL AND ASTOUNDING OF A PLOT POINT THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO AT LEAST BE ALLUDED TO IN THE MOVIE, FOR FCK SAKE.
But of course, it's not in the movie because the TIT interpretation is ludicrous. So because you want/need the TIT and apparently will embarrass yourself to argue for it, you convince yourself a major studio movie just decided to leave that crucial piece of information out of the film. That's almost so illogical it's scary.
He could have seen the photographs of the kids in that file, not shown in the film.
Again, you are saying for the film plot you want to believe in - that Teddy is on a real investigation and being brainwashed - that you have to accept the movie left out crucial information. And now with your latest desperate conjecture, we have to ask why the hell would Teddy dream vividly about some pictures he just glanced at?? What kind of moronic storytelling is that?? (There is no mention in the movie of the red herring's "black ops" magically switching people's identities, only making them into controllable zombies impervious to pain... in case you forgot.)
So the conclusion --> TIA is a great movie in both storyline and quality filmmaking. TIT is more enticing story to the conspiracy nuts, but is a poorly made film. Great argument.
Whereas going through rest of many inconsistencies in TiA theory
There are none.
and backed with some of the obvious evidences that back TiT theory,
Obvious only to someone who doesn't understand a well made story.
Calm your tits. Usually, I'm really sceptical when it comes to theories that come from personal interpratation rather than what is shown in the movie. But with a movie like Shutter Island which definitely is intended to leave some mystery so the viewers can make their own interpratation, it make sense.
This being said, I don't like Asphyxiod's way to talk about his theory like if it is the absolut truth neither.
I think we just all have to agree that this is the kind of movie that everyone will understand differently. For what concerns me, I think both TiT and TiA angles could actually work.
And NO, TiT would NOT be a bad movie. It would still be the same mysterious movie. So stop being arrogant ffs.
I guess one thing that supports the TiA theory (where Teddy is insane) is the moving lighthouse. I'm not sure why it shows us that TBH. Or what conclusions we're supposed to draw from it
The lighthouse is Teddy's projection of the delusion on an structure he can never access, and therefore never truly destroy the delusion.
It appears differently to him in his psychotic state from different viewpoints to reinforce it's impenetrability. It is always inaccessible whether he's below it or above it.
Cawley recognizes this, and draws Teddy to the very lighthouse (heroically looking for Chuck by swimming to the lighthouse despite his fear of water) so that he can prove to Andrew the delusion isn't real.
Here are some of the stronger points supportings TiT: The idea that this movie is just a blend of Memento and Psycho seems beneath the story telling capabilities of Scorsese. (weak argument but if you are a long time fan of his work like me you may be inclined to believe it)
No sewage equipment in the light house If Teddy was meant to play out his fantasy, why was he being obstructed There are 2 light houses Nazi and Holocaust symbolism is consistent throughout the hospital, particularly with gate to the hospital. In the scene with his “kids,” Teddy only displays an emotional connection for his “daughter,” not the sons. This is because his "daughter" is actually a victim from a concentration camp. The two boys aren't even his sons; he didn't have sons! And the girl is not his daughter. He's being brainwashed into the idea that a girl he saw at the concentration camp is his daughter. Teddy saw her photo as he was reading through the Rachel Solando file. Since he was being drugged from the moment he first took a cigarette from Dr. Sheahan on the boat, his mind was already being messed with. If Teddy is Andrew, then the guy with the scar across his face (Andrew) and Rachel are fake. That means that there are 65 patients, not 66 on the island. But Cawley insists that there are 66 patients. Thus, for the note to make sense, there must be 66 patients on the island. But if Teddy is Andrew there are only 65 in which case the note makes no sense. The answer is that Andrew and Rachel do exist, and the 67th patient is Teddy.
There are more good points in the post. Overall, I like the movie more with this interpretation.
In the scene with his “kids,” Teddy only displays an emotional connection for his “daughter,” not the sons.
Not so,just watch the scene again and you'll see.
The two boys aren't even his sons; he didn't have sons!
Why are they included in the film then?
He's being brainwashed into the idea that a girl he saw at the concentration camp is his daughter.
He just saw one child at the concentration camp?
He's being brainwashed into the idea that a girl he saw at the concentration camp is his daughter.
He is? By whom and can you point me to the scenes where this happens?
Teddy saw her photo as he was reading through the Rachel Solando file
I didn't see that happen in the film either?
The answer is that Andrew and Rachel do exist, and the 67th patient is Teddy.
So there are real patients who just happen to have names that are anagrams of Edward Daniels and Dolores Chanal? Simply amazing! Presumably Doctor Rachel Solando is real too?
And even though you fool your souls Your conscience will be mine,all mine reply share
Teddy saw her photo as he was reading through the Rachel Solando file.
Very true. Its very obvious that a smart cop like Teddy would first go through the file of the 'missing patient' whom he is investigating for, like how he went through the files of other patients. He could have seen the photographs of the kids in the case file of Rachel Solando.
Well, all you really have to understand is the the "role-play" is not therapy, but a realistic way to make a person mentally unstable so that he can't tell what is real from what is not real. When he is mentally weak and vulnerable, they TELL him what he has to confess if he is to avoid punishment (lobotomy).
If you look up brainwashing you should be able to see how the role-play fits the description. Nothing at all about the role-play could possibly help Teddy see reality because there is no reality for him to see. It would only confuse him and make him agitated and could even make him psychotic especially if the are augmenting with drugs like LSD.
We don't really know for sure who Teddy/Andrew is because we have no reliable way to check to see how much of Teddy's original beliefs were true, or what if any of the doctors' claims are true. The government really was trying to create super spies at the time, but not with lobotomies. They were using hypnosis and psychological trauma, mostly, to create MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES.
Dissociative identity disorder is not associated with adult trauma like Teddy's. It is associated with early childhood trauma.The only exception that I have ever heard reported is in the government's attempts to create mind controlled super spies. I don't know how much success they had. I figure they mostly messed a lot of people up - wasted them, and then lobotomized them in the human waste treatment facility AKA lighthouse.
I doubt Teddy is Andrew Laeddis because they should have used the realistic name, Edward Daniels, for the real personality and the made up sounding name for the alter. So, I think that its a good guess that Teddy/Andrew (his name doesn't matter) has been there two years and during that time they have been trying to get him to dissociate at their command without permanent success. They want him to be a multiple personality, that's the brainwashing. There is also evidence that they are doing some other things to him as well. The role-play itself is unethical almost certainly illegal and a realistic way to make a person mentally unstable - the opposite of therapy to get a person to see reality for themselves.
Teddy's (or Andrew's) brain is already scrambled when the movie starts - but they can't erase all a man's memories like Teddy tells the cave woman. But they can jumble them up and cause him to think that things he imagines are real memories. Some of what the doctors' say is true and some of what Teddy believes is true, but neither side is all true or all false. We can identify lots of times when the doctors are deceitful and misleading, but since the film provides no way to know what is true and what isn't true about stuff that happened before the film (backstory), we can't know for sure much of anything.
Except that the role-play would make anyone crazy, and never help him get in touch with reality. Ever.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
The government really was trying to create super spies at the time, but not with lobotomies. They were using hypnosis and psychological trauma, mostly, to create MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES.
Source?
I doubt Teddy is Andrew Laeddis because they should have used the realistic name, Edward Daniels, for the real personality and the made up sounding name for the alter.
Huh? If their goal was to turn him into a spy, why choose a name that stands out?
And how do you explain the fact that neither Scorsese nor Lehane have endorsed this theory?
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There are a lot of mainstream psychiatrists and psychologists associated with the infamous post - WWII covert CIA mind control experiments - but not many of them have made public what they did exactly - because it was covert and probably unethical and illegal and would have destroyed their reputations - which is mentioned in some of the declassified remaining records. There were over 100 projects, many of which were carried out on unwitting subjects.
One doctor who has described what he did was George Estabrooks of Colgate University who worked in military intelligence. He said:
"The key to creating an effective spy or assassin rests in splitting a man’s personality, or creating multipersonality, with the aid of hypnotism.... This is not science fiction. ...I have done it."
He has a book on hypnosis that you might find on google books.
You can also look up Project Bluebird which describes CIA experiments that created multiple personalities.
What the lady in the cave said was basically true, but she mislead Teddy to believe that these experiments were with sodium amytal and lobotomies which isn't exactly true. But they did all sorts of outrageous experiments - worse than the "role-play".
I also think there is evidence in the film that Teddy is being influenced while he is asleep - sleep programming or psychic driving. The CIA and Canadia have settled a few lawsuits related to these experiments. The were carried out in Canada at McGill? by Dr. Ewen Cameron.
Basically, Cameron tried to erase patients' memory and pathological personality with high voltage ECT, and then put them in comas and played tape loops with new and improved thoughts. It appears that although he was harming a lot of people with unsuccessful research, that he kept doing these experiments for years, and only shortly before his death did he admit that his work was a failure.
Some people think doctor Cawley is based on Cameron. Cawley doesn't want the public to know what he is doing because the public doesn't "understand" the value of things in their own time. Cawley appears to be failing and wasting a lot of human subjects - like Cameron, because he is unethical - but thinks that in time his theories will be validated and the end will justify his illegal and unethical means.
Cameron apparently intended his methods to be treatment, and he may not have even known that he was being paid by a CIA front organization. But it is easy to see why an intelligence agency working on mind control would be interested in his work. Legitimate psychiatry can be used for dark purposes - black psychiatry. Also, unethical experiments can be carried out with the goal of treating illness like Tuskeege and Guatemala syphilis studies. Look up "psychic driving" and "depatterning" I believe that's what he called his methods.
So, no matter what Cawley thought he was doing, he knew it was unethical even if he intended to develop therapeutic treatments for mental illness. But Cawley had to know that he was working on theories that were going to be used for dark purposes - how else to we explain the excessive security and staff and the existence of Ward C? Also Cawley is working directly for the government, not simply being funded by a CIA front.
And how do you explain the fact that neither Scorsese nor Lehane have endorsed this theory?
From a Lehane interview -
Q.You’ve said that the writing of “Shutter Island,’’ the book, was inspired by B movies. Which ones and how?
A. The biggest one was “Invasion of the Body Snatchers,’’ because what it was really about went way over your head the first time you watched it. I want “Shutter Island’’ to exist on that plane.
They want the public to figure it out for themselves. By not telling the audience in so many words, the audience is effectively in Teddy's place. We know little more than he knows. We have history to inform us, the unethical mind experiments were kept secret from the public until the 1970's, so we know he could have stumbled up on a covert operation, something that the government was willing to go to great lengths to kept from public awareness - but that's about our only advantage.
Artists aren't too keen on saying what their work means. Are you the person who said that you like Scorsese's work less after you read what he says about it? He doesn't tell the whole truth. He also seems to much prefer talking about technical aspects of film making over the meaning of his work. When talking about meaning, he usually uses qualifiers like , "I think", or "the way I see it", or "my opinion." He always leaves room for interpretation - which is a pretty good idea if the movie you think you made is worse than you one you actually made.
And he really didn't want to talk about the nature of reality in Shutter Island in the Schickel interview. I'm not aware of Scorsese answering any hard questions about Shutter Island. He sticks to the marketing script. And he contradicts himself and said some pretty puzzling things, too, with no follow-up questions, so I have no idea what he was talking about.
Lehane said when he wrote Shutter Island he intended it to not be fully understood for 10, 15, 20 years. It's been what? 12 years? Also, he says he wrote the book as a response to his feelings about post 9-11 America - what he calls "Ashcroft's America" . Ashcroft/Ashecliffe?
He was pissed about the patriot act. He set the story in 1954 because he thought that recent history of the Cold War abuses - communist witch hunters, paranoia - The Red Scare - was analogous to the post 9-11 zeitgeist. I believe concurrently or immediately prior to 9-11 he had been considering writing a book inspired by Andrea Yates, the Texas woman who drowned her five? kids. So, those ideas came together in Shutter Island.
He has said that a couple of his main literary inspirations were Invasion of the Body Snatchers and The Manchurian Candidate. Body Snatchers on the surface appeared to be a pulpy sci-fi horror story, but later it came to be seen as a cold war allegory. He said the Manchurian Candidate was the best political thriller/novels ever written - or something like that. I'll see if I have those links somewhere. Of course, The Manchurian Candidate is about Korean War prisoners, hypnosis and mind-controlled assassins. Lehane also seems pretty skeptical of psychiatry, and it is unlikely that he would have abandoned his political plot - which is really smart, for a lame plot about a hero government psychiatrist - and represent his modern moral "treatment" with a clearly unethical and destructive behavior game.
Given he was motivated by cynicism about the government and government breaking it's own laws and stepping all over the civil rights of its citizens, do you think he really wrote a story where the ultimate meaning was that "if you think the government is doing something illegal or unethical, you are crazy"? Where the governmental authorities were the good guys who just wanted to help this very ordinary unimportant man? The government didn't care about mental health - not then or now - to invest those resources into psychiatric research, and the Justice Department that runs Ashecliffe (Ashcroft ran Justice) isn't in the health care business at all and would never do something like that unless they were motivated by political and intelligence interests.
Try looking up some of Lehane's early interviews about his book. He talks about the political aspects more freely. And he is very explicit that he meant the book to be ambiguous. I think he probably meant for both plots to be supported, and the child killing plot to be the one that most casual readers would see. Overtime, he expected the political aspects to come into focus - much like Body Snatchers. For me, the child killing plot is silly, too unrealistic and illogical, and too overshadowed by the ethical questions that exist no matter who the protagonist is. But, I think he meant that to be one level of the film - and it is under any interpretation - except in my understanding, the child killing plot is made up by the doctors, not a professional writer, so that explains all the plot holes, fridge logic and inconsistencies in that story.
Another thing to consider is that the film was first connected to Wolfgang Peterson, and Lehane was not happy with the fact that Petersen and the studio were insisting that the film abandon what he thought was a critical aspect of his novel - the ambiguity. They wanted to make it have a clear and explicit ending. Evidently movies that are ambiguous don't sell. However, Lehane was very happy with Scorsese's adaptation, so I think that he must feel that the film maintains that which he felt made his novel good. Both of them and everyone else focus on the common interpretation in the dvd commentaries and promotional interviews with only passing reference to the political plot, if they mention it at all. Usually only when they are asked. However, they also never rule out other possible interpretations.
Interesting Scorsese article, pre-Shutter Island, explaining something about the way his levels of meaning work in his movies.
So, it is possible that if the studio wanted an unambiguous mystery, that Scorsese was just the man to make a movie that seemed mainstream and commercial to casual viewers who make up most of the ticket and dvd buyers - I think it's his most commercially successful film, right? Schickel called it his most "Ugga-bugga" movie and one that would most appeal to 15 year old boys. To the vast majority of people it is a scary movie and that's all it will ever be and that's what will sell tickets - but it would also be uninteresting and creatively unfulfilling for the artist and diminish the work's long term legacy.
Last few times I tried to post this link on this board, it wouldn't go through IMDB. I'll try again. If it doesn't work google Dennis Lehane, Shutter Island, Stalin, Radio interview. It is a video interview in a diner where he talks about the political aspects of the novel and even the fact that most people don't get it - except the French -
Huh? If their goal was to turn him into a spy, why choose a name that stands out?
I'm not sure I understand. I was talking about the doctors' claim that Andrew Laeddis was real and Teddy Daniels was the alter that Andrew created.
I don't know what their goal was - I know the role-play is unethical, and I know it would hurt rather than help Teddy, but I don't know what they were doing because that info would have to come from the doctors, and if they don't tell Teddy, then the audience isn't told either. In the final scene, Teddy says he doesn't know what's going on, but whatever it is, it's bad. That's about as much as the audience can know for sure.
A lot of stuff is suggested subtly - some very subtly, but the only thing in the movie that is said about the possible goals of the covert experiments is what the cave woman said about creating "ghosts", and what Teddy said about how he suspected they experimented on mentally ill people and made them more crazy.
I have never heard the term "ghost" used before to describe what she was talking about. I have heard "super spy", "mind controlled assassin". Sometimes CIA spies are called "spooks". "Ghosts" are unregistered detainees. People the government disappears. I've always figured that she used that unusual word to refer to the idea that the prisoners on Shutter Island are ghost detainees - they are being held illegally and secretly and no one knows where these people are or if they are alive or dead. The "war on terror" has controversial "ghost" detainees, so that fits with Lehane's original inspiration of "Ashecroft's America".
What I was saying that it is more likely that his real name was Edward Daniels than Andrew Laeddis. That would make the doctors' theory a teeny bit more plausible - if Laeddis was the alter and not the real name. Edward Daniels is a common real name. Laeddis, if it is a name at all, is very rare and seems made up. And what's with the æ ? The ash? Makes the name seem German? Teddy in the movie is fluent in German, I think DiCaprio is fluent, so maybe they were trying to take advantage of that, but the name is from the novel and I don't think Teddy in the novel speaks German. Is æ/ash for "Ashcroft"?
The experiments are commonly known as MKULTRA. But there are other OSS/CIA programs like Operation Paperclip that illegally brought in Nazi scientists (Dr. Naerhing?) Project Artichoke, Midnight Climax, Project Bluebird - there's a lot of different code names. The records were ordered destroyed, so there is a lot that is unknown, but some records were stored in the wrong place - with the financial records, I believe, and when these were discovered in the 1970's there was a congressional investigation. There are redacted copies of the remaining records available and also you can check out the Church Committee Hearings. The amount of information is huge and sort of hard to sift through.
Most people think that it is more realistic to see it as therapy than as an unethical mind-control experiment. The opposite is actually true. It is completely unrealistic as therapy, even according to Dr. Gilligan, Shutter Island's psych consultant, and is really the opposite of what would be done. However, the government did (does?) do highly unethical and illegal human mind experiments that were covered up for 20 years after 1954 - and since most of the records are gone, we probably don't know the really egregious things they must have done both in the experiments themselves and in keeping the experiments covered up for so many years.
Edit - Hahaha! I just remembered to check and the link that I said IMDB has never allowed to be posted doesn't work! The others work fine. In the past I couldn't even get it to show up in the post - it would come up blank. This time it is there, but it doesn't work. Page not found. It's the most explicit thing I've found where Lehane talks about the film (I think it is after the film) in almost exclusively political terms rather than the child killing story that he talks about in other interviews and the dvd..
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
I watched this movie a while ago, sadly coming to the conclusion that it's just a Sixth-Sense rip-off, with Teddy refusing to accept the fact that he's been a patient the whole time.
I recently came to this board and was pleasantly surprised to see that there's an alternate theory floating around, so I gave this movie a second try to see which theory holds up better.
I just re-watched it, and I found all sorts of problems with what I had originally thought. Chuck/Sheehan (who was supposed to be his chief shrink) actually led him down the conspiracy path, putting the idea in Teddy's mind that they came after him to lure him to the island. If they were trying so hard to convince him who he really was and steer him away from his conspiracy delusions, why would they do the exact opposite?
And everything that Cawley does doesn't go along with what any half-decent shrink would do either. He's constantly trying to put all sorts of guilt onto Teddy, when it's that EXACT-SAME guilt that made him crazy in the first place.
And why would he give the most-violent person on the island free reign of the place? Did he really want his car blown up and the guard and other doctor almost killed? He could've easily gotten himself killed too with his "radical therapy".
For me, the thing that makes the most sense in the movie is the cave-lady's speech. If that was all just in his head, it's no wonder he wanted a lobotomy at the end. "The people running this place are the real crazies--They're driving me nuts, and I want out ASAP!!!"
Good posts Gleam. I've only read a few of them so far, so I've got A LOT of reading to do. You should put all of your thoughts together on this movie and make a book out of it.
Chuck/Sheehan (who was supposed to be his chief shrink) actually led him down the conspiracy path, putting the idea in Teddy's mind that they came after him to lure him to the island.
From a story perspective, they only had 2 days max to run the role-play so they had to nudge him toward the lighthouse -- with the caveat that everything Chuck says is stuff already set in stone in Andrew's script about the Teddy delusion. From a storytelling perspective, the audience needs exposition. Would be too suspicious if the whole paranoid story unraveled from Teddy's mouth.
And everything that Cawley does doesn't go along with what any half-decent shrink would do either. He's constantly trying to put all sorts of guilt onto Teddy, when it's that EXACT-SAME guilt that made him crazy in the first place.
I don't see Cawley putting any guilt on Teddy. All Cawley is doing is making a realistic stage for Teddy's existing guilty fantasy. And not sure how devising something which EVERYONE understands is a completely desperate therapy after all else has failed can reflect on how "decent" a shrink Cawley is. It surely demonstrates his compassion, however.
And why would he give the most-violent person on the island free reign of the place?
It's kindof explained he was violent when his delusion was challenged. Plus he was mostly watched the whole time.
Did he really want his car blown up and the guard and other doctor almost killed?
Dramatic license for a gothic-noir, dude. Wasn't a documentary.
He could've easily gotten himself killed too with his "radical therapy".
Not sure about easily, but Cawley is such an awesome doctor that he did take a huge personal risk to cure Andrew.
If that was all just in his head, it's no wonder he wanted a lobotomy at the end.
Good explanation for the ending!
I've only read a few of them so far, so I've got A LOT of reading to do.
When you post a public message on IMDB, it's typically understood its free to be read, evaluated, and commented on by public parties. I won't bore you with the rationale behind the fairness for that standard.
Sounds like you may have wanted to send Gleamy a private message. You can click on her name above to start that process.
Thanks for your post and nice words, soggybottom.
One of the main reasons that I have posted so much about this film is that virtually everything that it is criticized for disappears if the viewer realizes that the doctors are unreliable expositors who have a personal stake in the outcome and that there is no more way to know that they are telling the truth than there is to know that Teddy's memories are real. I have hoped that some disappointed viewers would have a better opinion of the film (and Scorsese) if they saw the movie from a different set of expectations.
If the "flashback" of the crime is a false memory or guided imagery and his confession is an internalized false confession - success for the doctors would simply mean that they successfully brainwashed a man - something that is actually historically consistent and realistic for 1954 - much more so than devoting all those government resources to "cure" an ordinary man of mental illness at a time when psychiatric hospitals were obscenely overcrowded and underserved. The post-war/cold war government was far more interested in "mind-control" experiments than it was with the care and treatment of the mentally ill.
What they do to Teddy is obvious "brainwashing"/thought reform/coercive persuasion - the opposite of what would be done to get a man to see reality for himself. The doctors in the movie aren't trying to get him to see reality for himself. They are coercing him to accept abhorrent conforming beliefs that can't be verified. They aren't trying to get Teddy to see reality for himself, they are trying to force him to accept their authority as the arbiters of his reality and identity. Shutter Island is a lame, illogical thriller only if we assume that the doctors (and Scorsese's extratextual comments ) speak for the film itself. It seemed pretty clear to me that the doctor characters were unreliable and dishonest, but the overwhelming majority of viewers never questioned them at all - once they decided that Teddy was "insane".
Scorsese actually brainwashes the audience in a way similar to the way the doctors brainwash Teddy. The viewer typically loses faith in Teddy at the exact moment Teddy loses faith in himself - when Teddy "shoots" Cawley. To my knowledge, Scorsese has never admitted the truth about his movie - he would rather it be thought of as a bad movie than expose the reason it is a brilliant and unique film. He said that after The Departed (and his Oscar), that he wanted to go back to making experimental films - and that he did. He also made his most profitable film.💰 That is some achievement. Shutter Island just appears to be a flashy Hollywood big-budget genre movie. Scorsese is still a smarty-pants in his 70's.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
I know this post is 5 years old, and you are likely gone from it. I rewatched Shutter Island recently and came to an opposite conclusion from the more pat one; ie accepting the role play. This time, there were two aspects that bothered me. One was the role play. Why when deliberately presented with things that that would support his "delusions" would he ever snap out of it? As you say, and I agree, the role play is contraindicated. The other is Dr Solandro. She provided information that I should think Teddy would not be knowledgeable.
In any case, I find your arguments compelling and consistent with the doubts I had upon rewatch. I also think that Teddy simply did not want to be the monster that they were trying to create.
Some people think doctor Cawley is based on Cameron. Cawley doesn't want the public to know what he is doing because the public doesn't "understand" the value of things in their own time. Cawley appears to be failing and wasting a lot of human subjects - like Cameron, because he is unethical - but thinks that in time his theories will be validated and the end will justify his illegal and unethical means.
The idea that dr. Cawley is some sort of evil mastermind is destroyed in the last scene where you can see such immense grief on his face.
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TLDR- I never said Cawley was an "evil scientist". He, like many individuals, thinks the ends will justify his unethical means, and he will be vindicated someday. I also believe he is self-deceptive in that his primary motivations are probably egoistic, but he rationalizes his moral compromises as being for the greater good rather than his own interests. I suspect that's a common orientation.
The "look of grief" you see on Cawley's face is a subjective assessment. He could be sad because Teddy refusing to go along also meant that his theories were discredited, and he just lost "everything". He could also be sad for Teddy, too, on some level, because he wasted a human being on his wrong-headed theories and feels bad about it. The role-play is still a harmful and unethical human experiment even if he feels sorry for those he destroys while trying to make a name for himself.
There is A LOT more in the final scene than Cawley's sad expression, which probably has more to do with the fact that his life's work is discredited than it does "grief".
Cawley LITERALLY turns his back on Teddy in the final scene!!!!! He stands yards away from Teddy and doesn't have the guts to approach him directly or speak to him. Scorsese had a reason for the distance and the back turning. Scorsese says that Teddy/Andrew was "sane" in the final scene, but Cawley doesn't even talk to him to assess his state of mind. If he cared so much for Teddy, don't you think he should have talked to Teddy/Andrew and ascertained that he was indeed "insane" before he ordered the lobotomy?
He just orders the lobotomy on a nod from a junior physician!!!!! Don't you think that is notable? It's because it was never about Teddy's mental health. It was about control. They were waiting to see if Teddy decided to play ball and conform to their dictates. He refused and was sent to the human waste treatment facility for a lobotomy - failed experiment subjects were a "disposal problem"- in real life unethical mind experiments. The lighthouse is identified as a "sewage treatment facility" for a reason.
We can always make up some reason to support our own opinions, people always do, but to do that in this case to conform to the idea that Cawley is acting in good faith requires dismissing the obvious reason for Scorsese's choices out of hand - Cawley is ashamed and guilty and a failure in the final scene. That is my own subjective opinion taking into account some objective cues that aren't considered when people are defending Cawley.
The look of immense contempt for Cawley on Teddy's face as he walks away to his doom says a lot, too. Those who defend Cawley never mention the way Teddy looks down his nose at Cawley, a look that says "I win, a$$hole. I outsmarted you".
Unless Cawley is a total sociopath, and I don't think he is, I imagine he does feel guilty and even sad for what he did to Teddy. The novel makes it clear that Sheehan feels guilty the rest of his life. That is irrelevant to the FACT that the role-play itself is unethical whether it be research into helping the mentally ill or mind control for intelligence purposes.
THEY RISK HIS LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS FOR A HAIL MARY TO SAVE CAWLEY'S "SOMETHING VALUABLE" - his failed program on the island.
Saving Teddy from a lobotomy = Cawley saving his program on the island.
Teddy/Andrew getting a lobotomy = discrediting Cawley's theories and losing everything.
You can't separate these outcomes. The doctors both focus on their personal/professional goals rather than Teddy's emotional pain. Sheehan does this in the lighthouse after Teddy breaks down - maybe the lowest point of his life. Rather than focusing on Teddy's grief and emotional pain, he brings up the fact that they will be discredited and lose everything if Teddy/Andrew doesn't go along with what they are telling him. That is very significant. They don't care about his feelings when he needs emotional support the most.
After poor Teddy/Andrew confesses in the cell, same thing. He has supposedly just remembered something that's so SO AWFUL that he dissociated and became so dangerously psychotic that he required this extreme treatment to be "cured". And what do the doctors do? They don't focus on Teddy and his emotional pain at all. Actually, they are pretty cold and harsh when it comes to Delores' death and the deaths of the children.
They start talking about how THEY NEED him to not "relapse" like he did in the past. If he "relapses" that means that they are discredited and lose everything. Since they did nothing to support Teddy/Andrew in his time of need, no wonder he "relapsed". It's like unconsciously, once they get what they first need from him - the words of confession - they just continue with the next phase of what THEY NEED FROM TEDDY - that he not "relapse". They completely bypass Teddy/Andrew's raw and tender feelings and grief that were extreme enough to make him the worst of the worst psychotic patients. That is very important.
No wonder "Andrew" was unable to cope and opted to "wipe his memories" with a lobotomy.
Cawley made it explicit that he would FIGHT ANYONE INCLUDING TEDDY, his supposed patient, to avoid being discredited and losing everything he built on the island. There is a conflict of interest between Teddy and Cawley. Don't forget that in the end Teddy/Andrew chose the lobotomy over Cawley's cure so Cawley wasn't acting according to what Teddy thought was best for him – he chose the lobotomy that the risky role-play was supposed to avoid. No matter how pathological, "Andrew" had found an effective way to cope and they took it away from him and replaced it with NOTHING as if their goal was for “Andrew” to be in a permanent state of guilt, sorrow and self-loathing..
In fact, Cawley explicitly says he DOESN'T care about Teddy's mental health at all - he could keep his delusions and fantasies if Teddy was CONTROLLABLE. The novel even emphasizes that Cawley would like it "A LOT" if Teddy could live in his fantasy - but that can't be because he is uncontrollable. The warden also makes that point - that Cawley believed Teddy could be CONTROLLED. Control is not the same as restoring mental health. Teddy's mental health is not the reason for the role-play. There is no reason to assume this. The reason is control - same as a lobotomy.
Lobotomy = Control (not therapy)
Role Play = Control (not therapy)
The role-play is a psychological and perhaps chemical alternative to lobotomy. There may be no effective or moral difference. The only difference I can think of is that the lobotomy is irreversible. Cawley wants his role-play treatment to be permanent, too. The fact that it isn't as permanent as the lobotomy is a major failing for his method.
An overlooked but telling look on Cawley's face is the shame and guilt that he expresses when Teddy and Sheehan are talking about how Teddy risked his life to save his fake partner. The moment that the experiment was shown to be life threatening - probably when Teddy and Billings on Ward C nearly killed each other, the experiment should have been stopped. Instead, they continued and Teddy continued to risk his own life.
Nelson, the guard, was hurt when Teddy overpowered him to get into the lighthouse to save Chuck. Nelson was literally caught with his pants down meaning that Cawley didn't warn him that Teddy was coming. He thought Teddy was going to kill him. There was ample opportunity to get Nelson out of harm's way but Cawley didn't do that. Why? Because he needed an example of Teddy being violent to make his point that Teddy/Andrew was a dangerous psychotic. He used that contrived situation to dishonestly serve his goals for Teddy/Andrew.
Nuremberg Code:
The experiment should be set up in a way that avoids unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injuries.
It should not be conducted when there is any reason to believe that it implies a risk of death or disabling injury.
The experiment is unethical on other counts as well, but this one is particularly egregious, and Scorsese made a point of having Sheehan agree that Teddy risked his life for Chuck and also to show Cawley's guilty expression reaction. Cawley's guilty expression is not ambiguous. He knows he unethically allowed Teddy to risk his life for his own selfish agenda. He knows he did wrong. Stopping the experiment as he should have would be the same as conceding failure. Cawley risked Teddy's life because that was his only chance to prove his theory.
Cawley is doing what he is doing under the auspices of the federal government because they thought they had to do unethical experiments for "national security" and the greater good. There were all kinds of notorious unethical experiments in that era such as Tuskegee syphilis study, Willowbrook hepatitis study, Guatemala syphilis study, biological warfare tests on unwitting subjects, and radiation tests as well as the notorious CIA mind control experiments commonly known as MKULTRA, which is what Teddy suspects in 1954 although these experiments weren't exposed until the 1970s.
Teddy asks why an intelligence agency would consult with a psychiatrist. The deputy warden didn't answer, but with the benefit of hindsight, we know what intelligence agencies were doing with psychiatrists in 1954. They were doing mind control experiments, often unethical, and often on unwitting subjects including those confined to psychiatric facilities.
They were especially enthusiastic about giving LSD to unsuspecting individuals. LSD could easily account for all of Teddy/Andrew's mental symptoms. In fact, it is the best explanation. These military and CIA experiments are a well documented historical fact, not a "conspiracy theory" involving "evil scientists", but a covert operation carried out for the ostensible greater good - and the twisted amusement of certain CIA personnel.
Many mainstream psychiatrists carried out these unethical experiments. One big reason for the extreme secrecy was to protect the reputations of the professionals who were choosing to participate in experiments that were not just unethical, but often would have had serious consequences if discovered. That is what Cawley is referring to when he puts Teddy/Andrew on notice about exposing what he was doing - what the public wouldn't understand.
Some of these government experiments were more outrageous than the psychological manipulation they did to Teddy in the film. These unethical experiments weren't done by "evil scientists". Dr. Cameron was the president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, American Psychiatric Association, World Psychiatric Association, the American Psychopathological Association, and the Society of Biological Psychiatry. He wasn’t a mad scientist on the fringe.
Highly respected Cornell psychiatrist Harold Wolff, M.D, according to wikipedia, "had a boundless capacity for kindness and understanding". He was a nice guy, an acclaimed researcher and academic with a legitimate medical practice. He also knowingly dabbled in "black psychiatry" for the CIA. He proposed Operation Hilltop, which sounds a lot like Shutter Island.
...assemble, collate, analyze and assimilate this information [black psychiatry, torture, hypnosis, drugs, etc.] and will then undertake experimental investigations designed to develop new techniques of offensive/defensive intelligence use ... Potentially useful secret drugs (and various brain damaging procedures) will be similarly tested in order to ascertain the fundamental effect upon human brain function and upon the subject's mood ... Where any of the studies involve potential harm of the subject, we expect the Agency to make available suitable subjects and a proper place for the performance of the necessary experiments.— Dr. Harold Wolff, Cornell University Medical School
The “kind”, “understanding” Dr. Wolff is proposing something that is both illegal and unethical. His intention was to do experiments that he knows are likely to cause harm to the subjects. Is Teddy/Andrew a "suitable subject"? Expendable? No family to come looking for him. Government employee, so they won't be looking for him at work. Appropriate "training" in the military. Healthy. May have stumbled upon highly covert activities when snooping around to find the arsonist that started the fire that killed his wife. Needs to be "neutralized". Is Shutter Island a "proper place" for the kinds of unethical, covert "brain damaging" experiments that Dr. Wolff has in mind? Isolated. Relatively modern facility. Easy to control incoming information and prevent people from contacting the outside.
Sounds about right to me. No villainous "evil scientists" required. Just scientists willing to compromise ethical standards for the "greater good" or "national security" as long as they don't get caught.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
Repasting standard explanation why TIT is wishful thinking:
The silly idea that the movie can be viewed as Teddy being really a marshal named Teddy being brainwashed makes implausible sense.
The obvious problem to people who understand storytelling is that we are not told crucial information about that silly notion, so it would be one of the world's worst plot filled movies ever if you were right. Hence of course, you are not right.
***We are not told why the doctors believe no one would miss him or investigate his disappearance, or why otherwise they would accept a Sane US marshal suddenly needed a lobotomy (crazy TIT fans have proposed these don't need to be addressed.)
***We are not told how the doctors got him to dream about kids which are not his.
***We are not told whether a Real Teddy has been on the island for 2 years or 2 days under TIT. Crazy fans have said both at the same time, ridiculously enough, because both are fraught with illogical repercussions and they know this.
***We are not told how Cave Rachel if real could survive so long without food, or not be discovered lighting camp fires. (Or if she is a planted actress by Cawley, why at this stage she would be REINFORCING the Teddy persona at this late stage. That is the exact OPPOSITE of what the brainwashing textbooks say to do.)
***We are not told why -- if the mission of the island is to create mindless zombies out of inmates(ez to do with drugs and lobotomies I guess) -- why they selected a US marshal (on assignment!) of all people to be given the completely separate and infinitely more difficult treatment of identity reassignment.
*** etc, etc etc
Then of course there is the problem with the anagrams. And worst of all, the movie you want doesn't even have a good ending. Once Teddy realizes on the steps what is going on, he should PRETEND to be Andrew anyway until he can come up with a plan. It's literally stupid for him to just start acting like he thinks Dr Sheehan is Chuck again so he can be lobotomized. Ugh.
Dude. It's a movie. You ever think of that? How much more time and energy to you intend on wasting trying to convince the rest of the world that they way you interpreted the film is the only possible explanation? Give it a rest. It can't possibly bother you that much, can it?
I find it so amusing that you try to make the film a straight-forward reading when it's clear the narrative is intentionally nebulous.
Dude, it's that movie's discussion board. You ever think of that?
How much more time and energy to you intend on wasting trying to convince...
The copy and paste, as noted in the very first sentence, took about 3 seconds. Very suspicious you could miss that.
But if you can't refute any of the points made in a post on a discussion board, opt for the coward's path to insinuate making points on a discussion board is somehow unusual.
If ad-hominems are the way you protect your fantastical interpretation for the movie, fine. Whatever floats your boat... dude.
Give it a rest. It can't possibly bother you that much, can it?
lol, you are over protective over an interpretation. this is like one of the few times i see people who get angry and discredit someone elses interpretation because their's is different.
why otherwise they would accept a Sane US marshal suddenly needed a lobotomy (crazy TIT fans have proposed these don't need to be addressed.)
no, it is clealy said in the movie that a "sane US marshal" could be said to need lobotomy because of traumatic things that happened in the past. in this case, it was his wife's death.
why at this stage she would be REINFORCING the Teddy persona at this late stage
what late stage? the drugs did not kick in at that time. it kicked in when he was in the lighthouse.
The ending makes sense. it is because he does not want to live as an andrew(the man who killed his wife) but die as himself, teddy(a hero).
Also why did Cawley not show pictures of his dead wife or evidence(like a news article on it or court paper)? Al
the anagrams don't matter. andrew might by a made up name for all i know. the anagrams are n't proof at all. there was no evidence shown that he killed his wife, other than them telling about it.
I would go with the TiA interpretation but there inconsistencies were purposefully put so that it could be ambiguous. the movie is ultimately about the theme where we believe everything we see but what we believe might not be true because there are things we did not see(which is also why the editing is sometimes weird with strange cuts).
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lol, you are over protective over an interpretation
lol, you think stupid wishful thinking equates to an interpretation
no, it is clealy said in the movie that a "sane US marshal" could be said to need lobotomy because of traumatic things that happened in the past. in this case, it was his wife's death.
2 days after a sane marshal arrives to investigate a missing person, he suddenly needs an emergency lobotomy because of past traumas without any consultation with professionals away from the island ??
lol, great "interpretation" there
what late stage? the drugs did not kick in at that time. it kicked in when he was in the lighthouse.
I know you are so far behind this is hopeless, but I was saying the retards who think SHE WAS A PLANT BY CAWLEY don't understand how brainwashing works AT THAT STAGE. You took my quote out of context, either naively or disingenuously. If the drugs you feel are magic bullets hadn't started working yet, then why would Cawley put her out there at all.
The ending makes sense. it is because he does not want to live as an andrew(the man who killed his wife) but die as himself, teddy(a hero).
What are you talking about. I said the ending made up by the loony conspiracy nuts WHERE HE IS REALLY A MARSHAL AND KNOWS THEY ARE ABOUT TO GIVE HIM A LOBOTOMY BECAUSE THE BRAINWASHING FAILED does not make sense.
Also why did Cawley not show pictures of his dead wife or evidence(like a news article on it or court paper)?
Because the point was proven to the audience in a 2 hour movie without that. It would take a 5 hour boring movie filled with unnecessary scenes to convince all the nutjobs that they are wrong, so I'll stick with the exciting shorter movie.
Althe anagrams don't matter. andrew might by a made up name for all i know. the anagrams are n't proof at all.
The higher your IQ, the more the anagrams make sense. The probabilities involved can't be grasped by everyone, unfortunately.
I would go with the TiA interpretation but there inconsistencies were purposefully put so that it could be ambiguous.
Oh, I must have missed those inconsistencies. Like what, specifically?
the movie is ultimately about the theme where we believe everything we see but what we believe might not be true because there are things we did not see(which is also why the editing is sometimes weird with strange cuts).
Very well said!
Btw, oddsareiamright is a very insecure guy with terribly low IQ. Its amusing to see him getting rattled by his insecurity whenever someone posts something that is different to what he believes. What a desperate loser!
"this is like one of the few times i see people who get angry and discredit someone elses interpretation because their's is different. "
Indeed. People want to be right but with a story like Shutter Island you simply can't say for sure which interpratation is right.
One thing that I'm sure: it obviously is not intended to be a straight-forward story. It's quite fucking that the general passing of the movie is mysterious and not everything is shown/said.
Btw, OddsAreAmIRight, in what world do you live if you think that every movies should say everything explicitely without leaving anything to the viewer's interpratation? I think you should watch some Kubrick. Some movies are made with the purpose to let people understand it their own way.
This is the reason I hate these 'theory movies with a twist', because they CONTRADICT themselves so you can't ever create a coherent story out of it even if you try (and the filmmakers surely didn't even try), so you can never, as a viewer, get satisfaction as to what really happened.
These movies give you 'alternative paths' to what COULD have happened, until no one can ever say for sure what happened and what didn't. Whatever someone says is always contradicted by something in the movie. That Leo REALLY was a cop is contradicted by the shrink's behaviour, dialogue and other people's behaviour around him that would ONLY make sense if he really IS the shrink, not any 'partner'.
It is also very stupid that Leo's character doesn't remember boarding the ferry with this unknown partner, and only 'meets him with his head in the toilet', as the dialogue goes (sort of).
If it was real, surely Leo would remember this 'partner' from before, and not have to be introduced JUST before they arrive, none of this makes any sense from any perspective.
It's just lazy writing to create a 'premise', 'twist' and then incoherently just schlap something inbetween and call it a day, then the audiences can debate about the movie forever and there IS no truth.
At least Memento was more coherent, though people still fell for the temptation of 'unreliable narrator means ANYTHING I imagine is right'. Sigh.
What's the point of a movie that doesn't take a CLEAR STAND on what actually happened, or explain any of its weirdness and mysteries? It's like weird things are thrown in just for the sake of terrifying the viewer, regardless of if it makes sense or not.
How could the doctor deny his partner anyway, when he's clearly real? Why would he suddenly deny his existence and CLAIM that Leo arrived alone? What? Wasn't the whole plan that the shrink PLAYS his partner, and they indeed arrive together? Wouldn't the dialogue of the guards be VERY different if it was just him? I hate this..
Why can't movies just be what they appear to be? Why can't a movie tell EXACTLY the story it actually tells us? Just because it's convoluted, full of plot and other holes, makes no sense and has a stupid twist at the end?
Why do people think they can endlessly change and twist and post-create the story of an already told story of some movie? I don't care if it has unreliable narrator, memory problems, unexplained scenes or an idiotic twist at the end; a movie tells us the story it tells us, end of story. Why do you have to try to change it to fit YOUR preferences?
If you don't like some movie, just watch something else instead of vomiting your mindflow onto an innocent discussion board, thinking you are brilliantly explosing the mysteries of the movie by changing its ACTUAL story completely.
That's what I do.. this movie sucks, so I rather watch something else.
Just let it be what it has written to be and move on. There's no need for THEORIES, movies are not some kind of philosophical free-for-all you can customize to your liking.
If a movie requires 800 kitchen-psychologist ape kids to write convoluted THEORIES about all day long, it's a badly and lazily written movie.
This certainly qualifies.. what does 'Shutter' even mean in this movie's title? The Island is pretty self-explanatory, but the shutter? Why is it called the 'Shutter Island'? Because it shuts down any logic and common sense?
Try to disprove THAT theory while you are at it. My theory is just as valid as anyone's.