MovieChat Forums > Licorice Pizza (2021) Discussion > The Emperor has no clothes (Spoiler aler...

The Emperor has no clothes (Spoiler alert)

posted 3 years ago by edge (126)
31 replies | jump to latest

I have enjoyed Paul Thomas Anderson's films. But not this one. There were a few minutes of entertainment in the two hours and thirteen minutes, but not many. The William Holden and Jon Peters nods were great. Kevin Smith has spoken of a conversation he had with Jon Peters where Jon refers to himself as, "Being from the street." No one seems to be troubled by the affair between a fifteen year old and someone who is ten years older. Sure, the twenty-five year old is immature for her age. And the early maturing just barely post pubescent teenager is clever and entrepreneurial. Had the genders of the two protagonists been reversed would there have been an outrage? Kind of a Nabokov thing. Now, that story "Lolita" was meant to be and is creepy. Yet this is presented as joyous and fun. The Emperor has no clothes. The praise this film is getting is puzzling. 7.9 on IMDB...really! On RT the critics have it at 91% and the audience score is 69%. It is like everyone will not admit this is a bad film because they fear going against an auteur. And being labelled as unsophisticated. The Emperor has no clothes.

“Stop sounding like a philosophy guy, Albert Einstein.”- Alana to Gary
Stay Gold
Edge

[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

I think the deal with ALL art films is that they raise the "Emperor Has No Clothes" discussion.

When a movie director makes a story that is written with a "traditional story," a beginning , a middle, and end, a certain "Hollywood predictability," we judge it as mainstream.

But comparatively few American directors go for "art." I think the pioneer on all this -- and he lived in England most his adult life -- was Stanley Kubrick. From Lolita on..but especially from 2001 on, Kubrick's movies were meant to be "a big deal" and NOT mainstream. He put a lot of pressure on himself to deliver "art" every time(that's one reason his movies were so far apart in release.) And critics and audiences ended up trying to determine (near the end), if The Shining, Full Metal Jacket and Eyes Wide Shut were "art" and meant to be bigger than just a horror movie, a war movie, a sex movie.

We don't have many more art directors. David Lynch, definitely...but he hasn't worked in awhile. John Waters, on the "sick indie" side. But HE hasn't worked for awhile.

That leaves the two Andersons -- Wes and PT. And each time they go to bat, they work in an "art film" mode. And each time, WE have to decide if they are making "real art" or "pretentious fake art."

I think "Licorice Pizza" is art. Pretty good art. The Sean Penn(William Holden/Jack Holden) and Bradley Cooper(Jon Peters) scenes are NOT traditional "comedy cameos." There is something disconnected about them, about the way the two Hollywood icons speak (and what they DON'T say.) These are not scenes you would have found in Fast Times at Ridgemont High or American Graffiti.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

PTA seems to have "mashed together" a bunch of different influences here. He got a lot of the "Gary" stuff from a friend named Gary Goetzman who now produces movies with Tom Hanks. He got the "teen boy, older girl" romance from WATCHING a teen boy hit on an older girl(fantasizing: what if the pitch WORKED?) He got the Shabbat dinner scene from ..Alana Haim. That really happened, she told PTA the story, it went into the script.

Even the controversial bits about the restaurant owner with the Asian wives is, says PTA, based on a REAL restaurant owner who REALLY did that. We can complain about it in a fictional film...but it really happened, says PTA.

What makes it an art film? The way that PTA uses all of this in a non-linear, free-floating way , doing "daring" things along the way like all those scenes where the two "non lover lovers" are RUNNING at each other(this is NOT mainstream filmmaking.) Or that long scene with the female theatrical agent in which she is filmed in WAY too close a close up and talking WAY too intensely...about Alana's talent.

I liked the comedy in that interview, btw, where Alana claims all sorts of talents she doesn't have -- horse back riding, Portuguese -- and when asked if she will perform topless, SHE says "yes," GARY says "No." Charming.

Anyway, that's my take. EVERY art film asks if the Emperor is actually wearing clothes. Its up to us, individually, to decide if he is or he is not.

I think on this one...he is.

[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

I thought it was a well made entertaining film with good performances, but a couple flaws. The biggest issue I had with the film is that I couldn't believe the central relationship. It seemed too unlikely. Second, the film is too long. It didn't need to be 2 hours and 13 minutes. There was a fair amount of stuff that could have been easily cut out. In spite of those flaws, I did enjoy the film overall. 8/10

[–] HEHEHO2022 (4) 2 years ago

how is the relationship unlikely. theres people in relationships like this all the time

[–] SteveG (1370) 3 years ago

If they didnt talk about it no one would know or care. Its really not needed or much of a part of the story. This also works as a straight romance/love story. Its all in your mind.

[–] HarlemEagle42 (17770) 2 years ago

Yeah the relationship was really off-putting. If there was a time jump at the end that made him an adult, it would be less skeezy.

[–] NotASpeckOfCereal (302) 2 years ago

There was. See the other threads in this group about the time-line not being clear. And besides, it was a personal relationship--there was no sex. There was no skeezy.

[–] NotASpeckOfCereal (302) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] NotASpeckOfCereal (302) 2 years ago

No one seems to be troubled by the affair between a fifteen year old and someone who is ten years older. Sure, the twenty-five year old is immature for her age.

Nah, they handled that properly: nothing happened while he was a minor. In fact, no sex seems to happen even by the end of the film, when Gary was no longer 15 and seemingly no longer in school.

Had the genders of the two protagonists been reversed would there have been an outrage?

Nah, see Brad Pitt and Margaret Qualley in 'Once Upon a Time... In Hollywood'. In this case, she literally offers herself to him sexually (he declines). This time, it literally was about sex, but there was no outrage there either.

Kind of a Nabokov thing. Now, that story "Lolita" was meant to be and is creepy. Yet this is presented as joyous and fun.

You've really got your genres in a twist. This film wasn't about the tortured adult seeking their redemption from (yada yada, go read Lolita). Licorice Pizza was about relationships from the heart, not the loins.

The Emperor has no clothes.

Okay.

The praise this film is getting is puzzling. 7.9 on IMDB...really! On RT the critics have it at 91% and the audience score is 69%. It is like everyone will not admit this is a bad film because they fear going against an auteur. And being labelled as unsophisticated.

In other words, "I think it's not such a great film, so everyone giving it better scores are wrong / must have some other motive other than actually liking the film".

The Emperor has no clothes.

You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[–] edge (126) 2 years ago

This classic tale raises question about self-deception, conformity, and obedience to authority.
An Emperor of a city is fond of clothes. Two imposter weavers enter his city and tell him they will create a suit for him that would be invisible to stupid people. The weavers only pretend to weave the suit and present the fake suit to everyone in the city. Everyone who looks upon the suit is troubled by what they cannot see, and whether they are inadequate or not. Everyone lies and says they can see the suit. A child breaks everyone’s delusion by shouting out, “the Emperor is not wearing anything at all!”
When each character within the story is confronted with the invisible suit, they are also confronted with a complex moral dilemma. Should they tell the truth (not being able to see the suit) and accept their own supposed inadequacy, or lie and save themselves from social ridicule? This dilemma combines multiple philosophically interesting issues.
No, I am not calling anyone who disagrees with me as, "Stupid." That would be harsh, unnecessary and wrong. But I get the gist of the story.
You believe there is a suit. I do not see the suit. We disagree.

Stay happy and I'll see you at the movies.

Stay Gold
Edge

[–] Arasaid (197) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I liked the movie a great deal, but I've come to believe that there is one particular scene in it in which the movie "announces" itself as an art film.

Its the scene where, out of nowhere, Gary is grabbed by the cops and driven off to the station with the truly chilling announcement that he is being arrested for MURDER, and how he should "like it in Attica"(a New York prison but what the heck it was famous at the time.)

Anyway, Alana chases after Gary to the police station(proving her love for him at least as a friend) and then we get the very emotional scene of Alana silently begging Gary to "come ON!" outside the station to be with her once he is released as "the wrong man"(which happens in near-comical SECONDS when a scuzzy guy in handcuffs snarls "HE's NOT the guy!"

But the art follows. Alana hugs Gary deeply (love of SOME kind) and won't let go. Then she lets go. Then she starts hitting him(she DOES have a temper.) Asks if he committed murder, or has drugs on him...

...and then...the two look at each other and simply START RUNNING down the street together, side by side, to a Sonny and Cher song.

The scene starts "wild"(the arrest, the cop car, the police station, the release) and then segues into this highly emotional "bonding scene" of Gary and Alana...but I think it is the long side-by-side run that screams "art." There's no narrative logic to it, they are running evidently because they are happy and Gary's safe and...well, the whole movie sort of has an emotional vibe like that.

Good art.

[–] Arasaid (197) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Its a hard call and can only be made by each of us, I think.

Movies that are NOT art films (I'll use Top Gun Maverick as an example) don't have to worry about being found pretentious.

Only art films take that risk.

[–] Harlyville (24) 2 years ago

I liked the whole Teenage Fair vignette right up to where they run off together (back to the Teen Fair presumably). But the timeline of their relationship is unclear. It seems that they had no contact since the silent phone call scene. They are both surprised to see each other at the Fair, and Gary did not know that Alanna dumped Lance. But when Gary gets hauled away by the cops and subsequently released in the police station, she acts like Gary is her closest friend. So her behavior seems out of proportion to what had been shown up to that point. But it is a great sequence!

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I liked the whole Teenage Fair vignette right up to where they run off together (back to the Teen Fair presumably).

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That interpretation sort of changes my mind about the "art film aimless running" aspect of the scene. They probably DO have the purpose of running back to the Fair. After all, Alana managed to run on foot all the way FROM the Fair to the police station.

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But the timeline of their relationship is unclear. It seems that they had no contact since the silent phone call scene.

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I think that is the case. Alana embarked on her "relationship with Lance." Gary had to follow his own life path , though notice: Gary easily "picks up" some girls at the Teen Fair. He's ALWAY able to pick up a age-appropriate girls. But Alana is more alluring than that.

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They are both surprised to see each other at the Fair, and Gary did not know that Alanna dumped Lance.

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What's important here is that Alana takes the initiative and makes a long, seductively staged walk towards Gary. As we shall learn, she has no boyfriend anymore, and clearly she's interested in a potential return to Gary...on whatever terms. And Gary is excited to learn that he is "back in contention." Their mutual "hello gorgeous/hello handsome" reinforces the fact that there IS attraction between these two. Its a heady, romantic moment -- immediately torn apart("art film") by the cops tackling Gary.

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But when Gary gets hauled away by the cops and subsequently released in the police station, she acts like Gary is her closest friend.

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Well, he probably IS...she can't really "shake" her feelings for him...even if she hasn't seen him in weeks(?) Its a bond...a soulmate thing. Not necessarily romantic yet...because it CAN'T be.

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

CONT

So her behavior seems out of proportion to what had been shown up to that point. But it is a great sequence!

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And again, that is the "art film" aspect of it. We feel the emotion of Alana's silent pleading of "Come ON!" and gestures for Gary to come out and join her. And then she gives him that emotional hug. And then she starts hitting him and raging at him (her "thing" -- this gal is messed up.)

Art film. But a very loveable art film.

[–] liscarkat (18431) 2 years ago

I have no problem with the age difference. Until the end, when they kiss, they have a non-romantic relationship as friends and business partners. So what? When did we cross a ridiculous line where adults are not allowed to be friends with minors? I don't even care if, after the movie ended, they had wild and crazy sex for two years before he turned eighteen, but the movie gives us no indication that any such thing was going to occur. I've read "Lolita" and seen both movie versions. That was a very, very different situation. "Licorice Pizza" is a good movie, a very good one. The emperor definitely has clothes.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I have no problem with the age difference.

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Nor I, for reasons I have articulated all over this board. Its about a year since Licorice Pizza was released, and I still think about it, and how entertaining and nuanced it was.

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Until the end, when they kiss, they have a non-romantic relationship as friends and business partners. So what?

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I do wonder if most of us ourselves remember the fact that some relationships between the opposite sex -- in our own lives -- can sound in friendship rather than romance, or in romance (dating, kissing) without "going all the way." Over the course of my lifetime, I've been in all types. Haven't we all? The boys and girls/men and women gauge these things.."how far do I want to go with this person? How far CAN I go?" (BTW, the "opposite sex" aspect is relevant to Licorice Pizza -- for same sex relationships, I think there are different movies for that.)

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When did we cross a ridiculous line where adults are not allowed to be friends with minors?

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Yep.

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I don't even care if, after the movie ended, they had wild and crazy sex for two years before he turned eighteen, but the movie gives us no indication that any such thing was going to occur.

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I agree on both points.

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I've read "Lolita" and seen both movie versions. That was a very, very different situation.

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Absolutely. And to lump Licorice Pizza in with this is...limited. I'm sure PTA knew what he was doing in putting this issue "on the table," as it were.

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"Licorice Pizza" is a good movie, a very good one.

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Yes, a very good one.

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The emperor definitely has clothes

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In this case, with this movie, definitely yes.