MovieChat Forums > Blue Valentine (2011) Discussion > Chores and Dean

Chores and Dean

posted 12 years ago by blueathena623
14 replies | jump to latest

Let me begin this by saying that I think Cindy had serious psychological issues, and I'd be happy to discuss them, so this is not a Cindy = awesome and dean = awful post. Both characters were screwed up and in the real world need a ton of individual and couples counseling to try and make things work.

That being said, I'm really surprised by the number of posts saying that Dean is a standup guy and it is all Cindy's fault. I have two marriage counselors in my family, and both have said that one of the quickest ways to end a relationship is to have one partner be the parent and the other partner be the kid. There is nothing wrong with sometimes being spontaneous and goofy and having a relaxed attitude in life. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be the responsible one who makes sure the house runs smoothly. But if someone always has to be the parent because someone always wants to be the kid, there will be trouble.

That being said, thinking about the home scenes near the start of the movie, Cindy is clearly the parent figure. She wants help. She asks for help. She is ignored and has to not only clean up and get things going, she is actively thwarted by Dean who refuses and makes things worse. People may think that's no big deal because he's having fun with Frankie, but that will wear a person down. Fast. Housework/chores is a MAJOR issue in marriages, so this scene was a very deliberate image of a woman tired of a,ways being the parent.

The phrase "talk is cheap" applies here, because if Dean was really such an awesome guy, he could have told Cindy how much he loved her as he was cleaning up the dishes.

[–] Flora_Poste 12 years ago

The filmmakers definitely made it clear that Dean was slacking on the home front. Cindy had issues, as you say, but Dean was not pulling his weight. In his first scene, he's sacked out in his recliner in yesterday's paint-spattered clothes. Perhaps drinking beer or watching TV late or possibly both, the night before. Frankie knows just where to find him, too, so the recliner is his habitual nighttime spot. She goes straight to the recliner when she crawls in through the dog door.

One example of his wanting to be like a kid: He asks Frankie if she's hungry, and says he's hungry. You'd expect the next scene to be his fixing them something to eat. But no. They go jump on Cindy and cut her sleep short so SHE can get up and make breakfast, which she does while Dean sits at the table like a kid and plays with his musical stuff.

We watch Dean let Cindy do all the work to get Frankie fed, dressed, and out the door without leaving too much of a mess behind. Later on, after they've dropped Frankie at her grandfather's house, Cindy is rushing around trying to clean their place, and Dean is on the couch watching a video. He might have had a chance of connecting with her if he'd gotten up from the couch and cleaned alongside her, rather than making reservations at that motel over Cindy's sensible objections (she was on call).

He encourages Frankie not to respect what her mother says (undermines her at every turn). He does thwart Cindy's efforts to teach her daughter table manners, and probably other things, in the name of "fun." He carves out all the goofy, childish moments for himself, and that leaves Cindy as the sole responsible, adult parent. Just as you pointed out, that gets old really fast.

[–] blueathena623 12 years ago

Yes, yes to all of this.

You know, I've watched this movie 5 or 6 times, and I never made the connection that dean asked if Frankie was hungry and then went to wake Cindy up instead. For some reason it makes it almost worse that he then chastises Cindy for not knowing to soak the oats -- he knew how to make breakfast, but woke her up so she could do it instead.

[–] Flora_Poste 12 years ago

A lot happens in those first minutes of the film. Frankie tells him she "wants to get next to Mommy," which sounds like a gentle snuggle, but Dean railroads over Frankie and insists on his plan of leaping on the bed and jostling Cindy awake. Just like he railroads over Cindy's wish that she could sleep at home when she is on call in the morning. Dean has a way of ignoring what Cindy asks.

I don't mean to dump exclusively on Dean here. Cindy has plenty of faults. I read an interview with Derek Cianfrance in which he said that he wrote "Blue Valentine" as a cautionary tale to himself about the hazards of matrimony, and that he, himself, has a fear of being either Dean or Cindy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katie-hafner/black-and-blue-valentine-_b _819379.html

[–] jcouncil-1 12 years ago

Blue & Flora,

I'd like to thank you both for pointing out what I thought I was seeing, too. I left a relationship so similar that I thought I was just being too critical of 'nice guy' Dean (as I've been conditioned to feel by my ex), but I felt myself grumbling by his complete lack of ambition, his conditioning his daughter to disrespect her mother, etc., etc. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks those kind of flaws, even for a nice guy, can really grow on you.

Thanks again, you guys, for this thread.

J-CO

[–] blueathena623 12 years ago

Honestly, the people who say dean is a nice guy, I wonder if they are married or have ever lived with a significant other.

Young dean, and even sometimes older dean is almost a classic Hollywood romantic -- love at first sight, charming, quirky, what have you, so people think of him as a nice, great guy, because that's what we've been told romance is. But this is a movie that is trying to be realistic about marriage, and the vast majority of marriage is not starry eyes baby baby baby I love you this is fate, its unloading the dishwasher and walking the dog and balancing the checkbook and picking the kids up from hockey practice and hopefully some hand holding and compliments and I love you's. I think people are confused about what this movie is supposed to be about.

[–] Traviud 12 years ago

I think one of the main flaws of this film is that it doesn't make it clear which one of the two is trying to fix the relationship, if indeed either of them is. We see them both at their best and at their worst with none of the in between, which paints an unrealistic image of marriage. But hey, time constraints.

The OP is right on about what Dean could do better. He's a lot of talk with none of the effort. I've been married two years and my wife is adamant about me doing chores when she's at work and I'm between classes. Of course I will; it's the least I can do.

That being said, I feel that some people on this board underestimate the importance of having a good heart, a positive attitude. Hope. Personally, I would rather be married to a Dean than a Cindy because I know they give a damn. Based on this ludicrously small sample, Cindy is impossible to converse with and entirely unromantic. This was not always the case but it seems that she had been that way for quite some time. Regardless of the changes Dean needs to make, her attitude and outlook is fundamentally broken. I could never live with someone whose response to a failure to comply is a cold shoulder.

They're both really screwed up though and clearly using each other to fulfill needs that have gone unsatisfied for many years. They're both selfish, broken people and that never translates to a successful marriage. But only one of them shuts down completely.

[–] stillkisseswith_saliva 12 years ago

i mostly agree with what you said. i think we needed to see at least a few scenes more of both of them trying to fix things in their own ways.. plus a little more emotion from cindy. she was too worn out & cold by this point for us to empathize with her as much as with the romantic, understanding dean. he has very obvious faults but he somewhat redeems them by being sweet, forgiving her & accepting what could be another man's baby.. & not that it's not totally understandable but at the same time it kind of vilifies her to the audience by her cheating on him & wanting so much space, which i don't think was really fair. we can imagine but we didn't actually see what led up to that.

personally i felt really bad for both of them lol you can tell dean really has a good heart & he's trying a lot harder than she realizes..but he's trying in the wrong ways/areas. yes he's affectionate & says loving things.. but that doesn't work if you don't back it up.. or clean up the house or raise their daughter which is what she needs help on. she's doing a lot of things alone on top of also being a nurse, has someone undermining her parenting efforts & often has what seems like 2 'kids' to deal with which will wear on someone terribly.. so she's too tired & resentful by now to want to be intimate.. & when he tries she shoots him down. i totally agree we needed more of the in between.

[–] blueathena623 12 years ago

Out of curiosity, what is dean forgiving her for? She didn't cheat on him. She was with bobby, got pregnant, dumped bobby, and then immediately got with dean.

[–] Annie_Chan5 12 years ago

I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge whether you'd want to be with someone based on how they behave in a relationship they no longer want to be in. No one is a pleasure to be with in that circumstance. People often say that Dean was better than Cindy because at least he cared or at least he tried, but when a relationship fails it's usually the case that one partner gives up or pulls away before the other and facilitates the inevitable - that doesn't make them the bad guy.

[–] blueathena623 12 years ago

But does she shut down completely?
After he buries the dog and is crying, she comforts him (which I think is an incredibly important scene because it contrasts so sharply with how he treats her after she finds the dog)
I believe she tries to hold his hand in the car after they fight about bobby at the liquor store (I could be wrong)
When he is watching movies of the dog and sitting in the chair, she doesn't demand that he help her clean.
She helps him find his ring after he chucks it.

Again, its a matter of words/grand gestures vs. actions. Yes, I do believe Cindy has mostly checked out of the relationship, but her few romantic gestures help dean vs. dean's romantic gestures are just imposed on her. Yes, dean gives a damn, but I don't think its necessarily giving a damn about her. Take the grand gesture of going to the hotel. Cindy does not want to go, and she has legit reasons. I do fault her for eventually passively aggressively giving in, and she should have stood her ground and refused to go. At the same time, dean is freaking ignoring her legit reasons for not wanting to go. Think how different the scene would have played if dean said "ok baby, not tonight, but can you look at your schedule so we can find a time to go away?" If dean had been like that through the movie, I would be team dean all the way.

[–] washcloud 9 years ago

...by the time we witness the hotel scene, it's already too late for anything to be fixed. And Dean's idea of how to fix things up, is doomed in its conception.
We are not talking about real people here (but movie characters instead - so we can only speculate) - yet the alternative that you proposed, like "okay honey, we can arrange this some other day then", probably wouldn't work anyway. She has already lost interest in him and she probably would have never agreed to the hotel idea. Plus, she certainly fits the profile of the woman that couldn't care less for such an option : "let's go revive our relationship in either the Sex or the Future Room". Dean of course cannot afford for more than that and here's were "Dean's Career Ambitions" issue of hers come into the way as well. Dean is in a "no-win situation". Whatever he tries CANNOT be enough for her. He's not too much of a career man, he's not too much for a household aiding man - he's not TOO MUCH OF A MAN (according to her) in the end...
She is totally lacking admiration towards him, if not respect alltogether (and emotions too : "there's nothing inside here for you anymore"). For her it all is a done deal and the hospital scene simply is the last straw.
Talking to her would be like trying to talk to a wall / trying to fix things with her would be like throwing himself onto that wall.

That said, Dean is a believer, trying in the way that he understands, to amend things. He of course makes it worse both by his persistence for the hotel idea and getting to the hospital/punching that a$$hole/making her lose her job,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but Dean is the one that TRIES. He's not the one that kinda awaits in the corner for the right moment to burn it all up. He's so desperately trying his "best", making himself a tragic figure trying to avoid the inevitable.
Now I do know that some won't like this (the "glorification" of Dean's person) as I put it, yet I think that I'm not being partial about it.
No one has by the way taken into consideration that Dean is not like, say, Cindy's father : that is, a short-tempered schmuck that messes his family's souls up for no good reason at all.He surely does not change things that get into Cindy's nerves, like back-talking "too much", or he doesn't seem to want to change stuff on his part, while he is asking for changes himself - yet you can hardly call him a problematic character.
So what goes on here is that Cindy JUST DOESN'T WANT H I M anymore. Of course has to do with her being "worn-down by life" (...only after 5 years of marriage/parenthood and probably even less of having a job...) too, much like it probably has to do by her own FAQed-up upbringing/choices/early motherhood, plus the fact that she didn't actually have the time/chance to get to know him better before setting up a home with him - she instead was "forced" into marriage. Not to mention that he isn't the biological father of the kid they are bringing up together.

All in all, Dean is obviously a nice guy that's trying and most people would appreciate JUST THAT - yet it's not enough for Cindy. She's not happy with it ALL, and she of course DOES have the right to BE happy in her life.
[In my book, she however is an immature bitching wife that can not/does not want take responsibility (even though I do know some will be enraged by how I just put it) ENOUGH. Wants her own ways, does not like being told-off (no matter if she's wrong), does not like blame being put on her (even if it is all hers), does not care enough about stuff that are feasible and do matter lots (like not letting the dog go, or wearing that freaking seatbelt) when given a guideline.
She's eventually too "little", in my eyes, for it all - she cannot generate the strength needed to straighten whichever Dean's flaws get into her nerves, as she ought to (she instead is too weak -doing nothing about it- considering finding ways to make Dean sit down and listen to her and her problems, demands, etc). She is an "one-way-person" that sooner or later chooses the "easy" way : out].

Conclusion : Dean should have stopped trying earlier and leave (...commitment is a larger-than-life thing, to be looked upon - but Cindy needed "somebody else". Much as he did too).
It unfortunately isn't in his nature though, so he only managed to make things even worse. It's not a matter of who is the "good" or the "bad" one anymore (especially since it's actually about "the brave" and "the weak").
It's a matter that the chemistry, characters and background is such that it could simply not work out for them.

Memory is a wonderful thing if you don't have to deal with the past

[–] TomRosicky17 11 years ago

Both of them are trying to fix the relationship, in most cases the wrong way. They are incapable of solving the problem by meeting their spouse's needs. And in the end too many straws have been drawn. Of course it's difficult on Cindy too when she decides it's over but neither of them go about loving their partner the way they should. Their past experiences and bad influences brought them to a place of helplessness.

"Doublethink. To deliberately believe in lies, while knowing they're false." Henry Barthes

[–] PureAmbition 12 years ago

Took the words right out my mouth. I have no idea why people believe that either Cindy or Dean are more at fault than the other when the movie puts so much emphasis on BOTH of their faults. My theory is that some people can not get over Ryan Gosling as Dean. I'm a huge Gosling fan as well but I really had to put in the effort to see Dean as Dean and not Ryan playing Dean.

Cindy is withdrawn and cold and she's damaged but Dean's faults are there as well, although less visible but of equal measure. He's quite passive aggressive and he can be very subtly cruel. He also likes to switch gears whenever he knows that he's gone too far and begs for forgiveness without the sincerity to change.

[–] Olahn 8 years ago

Just saw the film.

My question to people here.

Would you rather be with a nice loyal romantic guy who lacks fire in regards to their ambitions and household chores... Maybe childish and has a drinking problem.

Or

A guy who is clearly a jerk, selfish, money oriented, likely to cheat on you... But very hard working, earns good money and handy at home.

Of course there are men out there who has all the positive traits of the 2 types above. But for this question, let's assume the choice is between the two.

Dean is a seriously flawed guy. He is the guy who would be there for your emotional needs but is severely lacking in practicality or their ability to make the daily grind easier.

But he would be the guy who you know will be loyal to you, would be there for you at your worst... Sickness, disability etc.

I think his flaws are only ankle deep... They can be remedied. Imagine if they win the lottery. All of a sudden the daily grind goes away and all of Dean's weaknesses are hidden away and now you just see a loyal nice guy who you can rely to be there for you and care for you even if you're struggling.

Basically... Cindy wants her situation to improve, she resents Dean because he isnt making life easier for her. But she got herself pregnant and its her who actually sabotaged her chances at being a doctor by being careless. Dean just happen to fall for her and was willing to sacrifice his life to be in a family with her.

Its all situational.

Dean is a good guy that wasnt readily equipped to make life easy for Cindy.

Again... Imagine if they were rich.... Would Dean's downside still bother her as bad as it did in the film?

Unfortunately... They were struggling and she has a lot of personal resentment and needed an outlet.

Cindy raising her child alone without a job will not make her life easier.

I like to think that... Dean changes and try his best to win her back. I see him doing that.