MovieChat Forums > Two Lovers (2009) Discussion > Leonard's character + Phoenix's looks

Leonard's character + Phoenix's looks

posted 15 years ago by felin1
24 replies | jump to latest

Let me start by saying that I loved this movie in general, and Phoenix's performance in particular. He was as brilliant as ever and perhaps even more this time around--he completely put himself out there, in a role that seemed very demanding to me. But yeah, he always does that, so 'as brilliant as ever' should do.

I would be curious, though, to see what people thought of how he physically fit the part, which is perhaps a silly angle... but still quite important, in my opinion.

The first time I watched the movie, I was slightly bothered by how masculine and mature somebody with Leonard's issues looked. I thought somebody with a more boyish physique would have fit the role better (although I have no idea which other actor would have been able to pull this off as well as Phoenix).

The second time I watched it, I started to lean in a different direction, namely that the contrast between his looks and his behavior/situation fed quite well into the awkwardness that was supposed to be one of Leonard's essential traits. But I have to say it's still nagging me a bit--hence this post.

Any thoughts?

[–] irishaspaddyspig 15 years ago

He's playing a man in his 30's. A troubled, immature man. I think he fit the part perfectly. Leonard was at a place in his life where the tribulations of a 20 something should be fading. Due to his situation, he was not moving on with his life in a healthy manner.

"a malcontent who knows how to spell"

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] bemorecynical2001 15 years ago

Funny you mention this. The first time I watched this film, my viewing companion leaned over somewhere in the film between going to the club with Michelle and meeting her married lover at dinner, and said to me, that his looks don't suit the character. We agreed that his performance was remarkable, there was certianly no lacking, but that he was too stunning in a way, too handsome, and manly of a man to appear so fidgety and awkward around an attractive woman. In fact, I included this anecdote in my review I posted on this site.

So, while I was not bothered by this, you aren't alone as someone I know made mention of it too. I claim no problem with it though, Phoenix does have a great face at his disposal, both in terms of looks (great jaw as you said, quite stunning features) and in the sheer volume of emotion he can display. He, frankly, has a great face for acting. But I know your point wasn't in any way a critisism of his acting. I think I understand what you're saying, he certianly didn't look like what you'd expect for this character, but that was a wise choice. It throws you off a little, to see a very capable-looking, almost intimidating (that stare of his, wow) man so crippled in emotional trauma that he physically sinks into it. But his good looks also explain away the interest women obviously show him, both in the leads and the smaller parts (Michelle's friends).

Not sure if this helped. :)

"Why would a banana grab another banana? Those are the kinds of questions I don't want to answer."

[–] felin1 15 years ago

Thanks for your post, bemorecynical. You grasped my meaning and summed up my babbling very well. I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one who was simultaneously disconcerted by this aspect AND appreciative of the quality of the acting and the film in general (sorry, I hadn't read your review before I started this thread).

Excellent point about the looks explaining Leonard's success with women (which is not to say that a less manly-looking man cannot be attractive to some... but that's a whole other story now). I like your other points too. The more I think about it, the more I agree with you that the casting was wise. If the leading actor looked more like what we'd expect Leonard to look like, we wouldn't be thrown off, like you say, and the film wouldn't be as unsettling and hard to forget as it is. I haven't gotten around to watching it again, but I'm looking forward to it.

[–] reverse-antidote 15 years ago

i think phoenix did a great job.hes a good actor.

[–] irishaspaddyspig 15 years ago

You are a master of understatement.

"a malcontent who knows how to spell"

[–] Ambrosia-I 15 years ago

I've read your thread with interest, but it suggests that mental illness is reflected on a person's face and in their demeanour, which sometimes it probably is, but sometimes it isn't.

I got to thinking about Stephen Fry, the British actor, director, writer, quiz master... Is there anything at all this man can't do? While not as handsome as Joaquin Phoenix, there is no way in the world anyone would have guessed he suffered from bipolar disorder. He seemed confident, charming, talented, clever, and yet he ended up having a complete meltdown. He has since confessed to sometimes feeling such a depth of self-loathing and worthlessness that he wanted to commit suicide. People who admired him (probably most of Britain) were shocked that he felt this way, but it was a symptom of his bipolar illness, the same illness Leonard has.

Sorry to have rambled, but what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter how gorgeous or mature Joaquin Phoenix looks, it's still credible that he could play a man with mental problems. Leonard's traits were sometimes more evident than Stephen Fry's, but then we saw both his private moments and public face in this wonderfully acted film.

[–] felin1 15 years ago

Good points, Ambrosia - thanks for the post. My initial take on the whole looks/mental problems issue was pretty simplistic :)

[–] Ambrosia-I 15 years ago

I don't think it was simplistic at all. I thought it was a great topic for a thread and raised some very interesting talking points.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] felin1 15 years ago

Sorry for being MIA. Thanks guys, it's your responses that have made this thread interesting. I'm glad I started it for this very reason. And... I've watched Two Lovers again and had the opportunity to pay more attention to other little things, for instance how painfully (and funnily at times) self-conscious Leonard is most of the time. For instance the scene where he says "I don't speak dog" and then rolls his eyes at his own lameness (priceless). Or his discomfort in the restaurant before Michelle & co. arrive... although that has more to do with Leonard's background than anything else.

Anyway, in and of themselves these examples are nothing but a realist depiction of an ordinary man (if I had a penny for all the times I rolled my eyes at my own lameness!) but the self-consciousness issue got me thinking about the two directions that this thread has taken so far:

a) Leonard's maturity or lack thereof (being painfully self-conscious may be seen as an attribute of, well, youthful angst? shyness? underdeveloped personality?... can I say that?? do I even believe that?? i don't know, i'm just throwing it out there. Other examples of childishness would be L's goofiness & some mannerisms.)

b) Leonard's bipolar disorder (depression/self-deprecation vs. hyperactivity/confidence)

Now, I'm not even sure which one I was talking about in my opening post, ha ha. I think I started out mostly with a) - immature persona contradicted by mature looks, and after I got your responses I ended up thinking more and more about b) - mental disorder (which we all agreed does not have to be reflected in one's looks. Not that immaturity has to be, either).

But, er, going back to the beginning, does b exclude a? And, in Leonard's case, the way he's depicted in the film, are we dealing mostly with a, b, or both (and how are these two things related, if they are?)

Note: This question's been nagging me for a while even though my first response to myself was, duh, if you have a mental disorder you're obviously not going to be very stable, i.e., you're not going to be very mature. The reason I'm still posting this is because I'm not entirely convinced mental balance equals maturity and viceversa. But then again, nor does self-confidence necessarily equal maturity. Oh boy, I think I managed to get myself confused.

Help?

[–] Mihos 14 years ago

No, b doesn't exclude a. It could be that being bipolar interfered with his maturing, so he's struggling to catch up. Or he may be self-conscious about being bipolar and, therefor, different.

I once knew a woman who was schizophrenic. Medication kept it under control a lot of the time. When it didn't and the hallucinations started, she was intelligent enough to know she couldn't trust what she saw and that she should get help. It's a big world. There's just about every combination of personality and disorder you can think of.

[–] DocAimster 13 years ago

I agree with you, Ambrosia, but I can see where the OP was coming from too. The first time I saw this movie was shortly after it came out. I love James Gray and Joaquin Phoenix, but I was, at first, a little confused about the choice of Joaquin portraying the part of, the mentally unbalanced and childish, Leonard, especially since I had read that James Gray wrote the part with him in mind. So in that aspect I see where the OP is coming from. However, after watching the film I realized that having someone with Joaquin's good looks and masculinity was the perfect choice for the role of "Leonard" because it made it that much more realistic. Having someone meek, timid, unattractive, scrawny, etc in the role of "Leonard" would be too stereotypical of how many perceive someone with a mental illness to look, whereas, someone handsome and ruggedly masculine made the film more true to life.

"...we in the killin' Nazi business...and, cousin, business is a-boomin'."

[–] sophiemops 15 years ago

I thought that the juxtaposition between Joaquin's physical appearance and his character's personality was brilliant and I'll tell you why.

In real life, there are many physically strong, attractive people who are emotionally fragile, shy, socially awkward or mentally ill.

Good masculine looks do not make a person emotionally strong. I personally thought that the casting choice was perfect, and that Joaquin turned in a truly great performance.

[–] felin1 15 years ago

thanks for the post, Sophie. Believe it or not, I agree :)

...how about the other way around, though - can emotional strength make someone look masculine/attractive?
:-o

just playing...
(but give it a thought, if only for a sec)

[–] sophiemops 15 years ago

I know that you're just playing, but actually over the years I have given this very subject quite a bit of serious thought.

Can emotional strength make someone look masculine/attractive? My answer? In a word--YES. I have frequently found this to be true. Men who have emotional strength and quiet self-confidence can often appear to me to be far more attractive/masculine than a "traditionally" masculine/attractive person who appears to be uncomfortable, socially awkward or has temperamental behaviour.

I think most people have had the experience of meeting a man or a woman who appears to be gorgeous on first sight, but within seconds of seeing or hearing them in action, suddenly don't seem too attractive at all.

I have often experienced the reverse as well.

What are your thoughts? :)

[–] felin1 15 years ago

Agree :)

Your comments tie nicely into what I noticed earlier, namely that (I thought) Phoenix looked particularly masculine when sitting still. But there are also a few moments when he appears like that in action--and some of those moments are when he's feeling protective of Paltrow's character. Which questions the destructive effect Michelle is supposed to have on Leonard (as so many people wrote on this board). In a way, it's pretty clear their relationship cannot function; but then again, I wonder how much good it does him to be around strong, balanced, (overly?) protective women--like Sandra, or his mom, for that matter.

Again, I'm just throwing things out there... I can of course find counter-arguments to my own points right away. Here's one: another moment when Leonard looks quite 'manly' and in control is when he's kissing Sandra for the first time. Perhaps it's precisely because, at that time, she's vulnerable and confused (by his interest in her, or lack thereof). Perhaps not.

EDITS: sp. etc

[–] JaneSchmo 14 years ago

Totally disagree. Phoenix makes a very believable schmuck. You completely see him as a doofus. I saw no contrast at all, actually.

He's handsome enough- but not really movie star handsome. He doesn't have the great looks that would get in the way of playing a drab character.

Also, while fairly good looking, he's got quirky looks. Unusual looks. Offbeat looks. It's not like he's conventionally handsome. He ain't Ben Affleck or Brad Pitt.

He's not an actor like Gwyneth Paltrow, who is just impossibly, amazingly, stunningly beautiful.

He and Vinessa Shaw are very plausible as humdrum folks.

stopjohnofgod.blogspot.com

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[–] irishaspaddyspig 14 years ago

He's a chameleon.
Leonard is described in the synopsis as charismatic.
He's an attractive man who has been emotionally shattered.

"a malcontent who knows how to spell"

[–] rosehoney 14 years ago

What I find intriguing regarding his looks is the dramatic contrast between the dark heavy eyebrows and the light colored eyes, whatever color or colors they are.
Rather striking appearance.
His face to me combines the feminine and the masculine, especially his beautiful eyes, his interesting shaped lips and the masculine ,his terrific facial bone structure. Is it just me or do others notice an abnormally short philtrum. Its the part between the nose and upper lip. Could be his scar.
His pigmentation combined with his bone structure to me results in quite unconventional but quite handsome, sexy looks too.

[–] JaneSchmo 14 years ago

Actually, Joaquin Phoenix says that he has a birthmark on his lip. It looks like a repaired cleft lip- but he swears that it is a birthmark.

stopjohnofgod.blogspot.com

stopsylvia.com

[–] jacowium 14 years ago

Firstly, felin, cheers for starting this very interesting and thought-provoking thread! Many of the comments here helped to illuminate the character for me, and in retrospect, I appreciate all the subtleties in Joaquin's acting even more now.

So many sensible things have already been said regarding the bipolar and immaturity aspects, and I won't attempt to add anything to that. Instead I'll return to this one remark from your original post:

I thought somebody with a more boyish physique would have fit the role better (although I have no idea which other actor would have been able to pull this off as well as Phoenix).

I think someone like Emile Hirsch, whom I rate as very capable actor, may fit that mold. Or perhaps James Franco, who brings an element of youthful physicality to his roles without filling up the whole screen with it.

However, I think Gwyneth as Michelle, was indispensable to this movie. I do not always applaud her performances but she didn't need to convince anyone that she portrayed Michelle here, she was Michelle.

Given the subject matter and themes, it was absolutely vital to have good on-screen chemistry between "Leonard" and "Michelle". And I have to say, Joaquin and Gwyneth pulled it off, marvellously. I doubt whether the Hirsches or Francos (or other options) would have been able to match that, no matter how well they may have acted. So, for all the (valid) issues regarding Leonards' mature looks/immature behaviour with Joaquin portraying him, I think the chemistry between the two leads helped a lot in giving credibility to both those two characters.

The more I think about this movie, the more I appreciate the themes and all their complexities, but also the craftsmanship that went into producing such a modern classic.

Again, a thumbs up for starting this valuable discussion!

[–] felin1 14 years ago

Thanks, jacowium - and good point about the chemistry between the two main characters. It works very well.

[–] morningdewpr 11 years ago

Phoenix has appeal and his looks seem part of the Leonard... and well contrasted with his grounded and natural manner... never a try too hard guy... he's kind in limbo... I can imagine... being ready for full commitment and then being dumped still loving that person and being it impossible for her to be with him because of a genétic factor and not for relationship problems... this guy is going with the flow... He's been Through trauma... his plana for a serious future fell through (marriage, law school), his moves are about being real and true not taking anything (disposition/ feelings)thats why maybe he comes out as awkward, his reality was just that... still he works and is not mopping around... I think he used to be a catch (looks and all)