MovieChat Forums > Martyrs (2008) Discussion > Ending Options??? Thoughts??

Ending Options??? Thoughts??


As of right now I'm ignoring the 'Keep Doubting' aspect...


1. Anna told of a 'Glorious Heaven' - So Madam kills herself to get there sooner

2. Anna told of a 'Glorious Heaven' but that Madam is not welcome - So why would she kill herself and condemn herself to Hell when she could stay on Earth a while longer and possibly redeem herself?

3. Anna told of no after life - So Madam kills herself because life is pointless

4. Anna saw nothing and said gibberish - So why would Madam kill herself when she could keep trying to find the truth

5. Anna refused to actually tell her anything - Madam would obviously just keep trying

6. Anna lies to Madam - Somehow resulting in Madam killing herself (this seems like the most unlikely and feels like a 'cheat')

7. Anna spoke of 'Hell' - Madam would obviously try to live as long as possible

8. Anna told of a 'Glorious Heaven' - But Too much to handle for a human and they kill themselves (Probably the most likely, BUT the most boring and over done. Hopefully its more deep than this)



I'm sure I am missing a ton of options, but these seem like the most obvious and of course I'm neglecting a lot of information...

I think the most logical one would be there is no afterlife and Madam felt guilty from all her wrong doings that she decides to end her life and enter the void of purgatory or emptiness rather than righting her wrongs (which wouldn't change the fact there is nothing after life). Also Rather than telling everyone else there that there is no afterlife, she leaves them with some sort of 'hope' that there could be something after death.

Thoughts?

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I think number 3 is most likely.
Another option though, is that whatever she described was so interesting, or unfathomable that you had to see to beleive it.

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None of the above. I immediately dismiss the "no afterlife" theories because if that where true Anna couldn't have had a vision and the best answer she could have given is "I don't know". Which doesn't change anything for Madam.

Here's my theory


9. Anna saw and conveyed unequivocally that there WAS an afterlife and that nothing in this life had any consequences on the afterlife. Madam didn't kill herself to get to the afterlife, or because she was afraid of it. She did it to protect the world from knowing the truth. The truth being that there are no absolute consequences for morality/immorality. Imagine what that information would do to our society where arguably a large proportion of people may keep their primitive urges in check. That would be the most important secret in the world to keep. Ultimately Madam is the martyr who protects the world by killing herself to protect that secret, and urges her follower not to pursue it, or in her words "Keep doubting".


Alternate theory:

10. Madam was looking for the answer to the most important question asked by humanity. Perhaps the question itself is what gives life any meaning, and knowing the answer drained her purpose and will to live. In this theory suicide wasn't out of fear or duty, she just lost the instinct to live by answering the ultimate question.



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That's actually a very very interesting idea! I really like that, Ill have to think about this more!. My only grip with it is that Anna must have all this knowledge all of a sudden (as in, how she knows nothing in this world matters and you all end up in the same place). Weird she would figure that out (verses knowing there is an afterlife, but not exactly who or who doesn't end up there).

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I guess a possible explanation for that would be that her vision was a conversation with God (or a person in the afterlife) that explained it to her. I mean, if you got to visit the afterlife for 10-15 minutes wouldn't you ask?

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Good point man! I really dig this

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This is the most satisfying and interesting theory I have read so far...Knowing that whether we are good or bad in this world, there are no consequences in the afterlife would be catastrophic.

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My take has always been that Anna told Madame exactly what the afterlife was like. The problem is that The Truth is not something a human mind can handle. Madame is now irrevocably broken, her only recourse is to forget the Truth. I suppose blowing her brains out worked well here.

It's a case of "be careful what you wish for". Madame wanted to know the Truth and she got it. And she was nice to not tell the rest of the Cult and have them "keep doubting."

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#3

I think it's just nothing. Anna basically experienced a near death experience and thus had delusions; dreams and visions that she can only see and that are usually different than others. I had tons of Grand Mal Seizures and I experienced a few visions that looked like my family simply standing before me in a white room and, other than that, it was pure nothingness- I felt like I was in a dream, but I couldn't really move or speak or hear or see anything.

I think Anna told her dreams to the woman and the woman didn't like the answer and felt it was better not knowing and thus offed herself due to having no more meaning to live, using the "keep doubting" line as a means to make the people stop what they're doing to the girls and just give up on knowing the answer or else it will take away their hope, too.

People use religion and beliefs to give their life meaning and hope. If there is nothing to go to after death, why continue trying to live in hopes of seeing that afterlife?

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I actually believe number 6 is probably the most likely:

6. Anna lies to Madam - Somehow resulting in Madam killing herself (this seems like the most unlikely and feels like a 'cheat')

To me that would be Anna's ultimate revenge, after all she'd been through, why not try take out mademoiselle....

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I think the answer lies in the moment she is introduced into the movies. She states that "We were disorganized." She is not thinking as an individual, but as part of a collective.

Then, she goes on to describe how she inflicts pain, and states that she serves it "coldly". Again, she goes onto state that "we even tried it on children." Therefore, it is fair to assume that absolutely everything she does influence by what she feels is her part in the collective. So then, it is fair to say that she has no will of her own.

So then, the viewer is led to belief that they are looking for "proof" of heaven, but it is highly unlikely, near impossible that they are. They obviously are aware of the pain that they caused, and given her statement of how they "even" tried it on children, they are aware that they have gone beyond what the world considers to be "bad". However, it is also very unlikely that they were what we may term to be "atheist", they started their experiments with a belief that there was something beyond to be discovered.

This means 2 things: There did not see themselves as "good" by any means, and were not attempting to advance science for the good of humanity by any means either. Secondly, they belief in AT LEAST one parallel universe of some kind. Now, most people who watched the movie ASSUME that they were searching for "heaven" because they used catholic terminology (martyrs), but actually the are extremely scientific individuals,with some historic knowledge, along with a complete lack of care for anyone outside of their organization (possibly not even for themselves).

Also, Madam is almost certainly not the leader of the organization, but is instead just likely to be the leader of that particular region, cell, or area of research. Then, at her limited position of knowledge, since she is likely under someone elses orders, she gives Anna a quick briefing of some of the methods which they have employed on some of the people, and claims to be looking for "martyrs". However, they may not be looking for heaven, but may instead be looking for a way to LOOK into a world which they already know exists.

Now, this is by far the most likely scenario, because she explicitly mention that the "martyr-type" people are looking up at something something which others cannot see. The "up" may lead the viewer to belief that it is heaven that they are talking about, but it may just be a way to throw people of the real trail. Obviously, the people killed were not all looking in the same direction since the Earth is round, and they were not all looking up at the sky, but instead their eyes were looking up relative to the face. So then, the "up" only comes from the position of their eyes, but they were all looking TO something, this much we can reasonably deduct from Madam's monologue.

However, given the severity of their actions, it is highly unlikely that they are attempting to find a way to see a parallel universe with a peaceful intent. So this leaves only one option, they want to somehow conquer the parallel world.

At no point in the movie is it ever said that they have stated the entirety of their plan, or even stated a true intent; Madam only shares an aspect of the organization collective objective, to find a special type of human. Give the full-scale effort made, there are follow up objectives.

So then, the viewer must assume one of two things: Either they are a legitimately insane group who has become delusional and tortured a girl into madness. However, that is unlikely given the high level of organization and obviously extravagant funding by some means or by someone. Or two, they were actually correct and there is a parallel universe of some kind.

The first option would mean only one thing, that Anna either stated some mad delusion which Madame not only believed, but took to heart so much that she killed herself. The odds that Anna could make a delusional statement that was somehow interpreted as true by Madame are astronomical since Anna knows very little about anything what is going on. Then for such a delusion to have a profound effect on Madame is near impossible.

So the safer bet is to assume that Anna is not delusional, and that the organization was right and that there is a parallel universe.

So, assuming there is a parallel universe, and that the organization was planning on conquering that universe (which is by far the most likely and reasonable explanation available), then it is highly likely that the character that we know as "Anna" was not speaking, but that instead it was "something" else.

So then, if "something" else spoke through Anna, it is possible that it was able to sense the intentions of the group, and may have said something to stop them from continuing their "research" (plan). However, since Madame said "keep doubting" we must assume that the organization was doubting something. However, it they may not be doubting the "existence" of a parallel universe, but their ability to conquer it. Since Madame made contact with something else (this much is evident since it would be unreasonable to assume that Anna was delusional), yet she killed herself, the question is whether she was encouraging her organization to continue with its goal, or whether she was trying to hinder their confidence upon realizing that they were right about something, but did not want them to achieve it.

Since she committed suicide and therefore left her organization, it is unlikely that she was being supportive and hoping to encourage those that she was leaving behind.

So then, it is likely that she learned that the organization was correct about something, but received some information that made her dissent and attempt to hinder organization. So then, while we cannot state for sure what was said; we can safely assume that the most probable explanation was that it was an otherworldly being of some kind which somehow induced Madame to turn on her colleagues to discourage them from proceeding.

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