MovieChat Forums > Milk (2009) Discussion > Gay rights and radical feminism

Gay rights and radical feminism

posted 15 years ago by epa101
22 replies | jump to latest

I've had a theory for a while and thought it was time I shared it with the internet: I think that radical feminism was killed off when the gay rights movement proved that not all men are the same. It seems that the radical feminist groups disappeared from the scene around the same time that the gay rights groups started to win major victories (late '70s). When I was an undergraduate five years ago, I chose to write an assignment on anti-racist and anti-sexist groups: I could find several anti-racist groups in the UK, but not a single anti-sexist group in the country. Of course feminism still exists in the sense of wanting to extend equal rights to women in all countries of the world, but you never hear any Andrea Dworkin sorts anymore. I think it's because their arguments, which often revolved around sweeping generalisations about men, seemed ridiculous once there were gay men out there disproving all these assumptions about masculinity.

Does anyone else agree with my theory?

[–] otter 15 years ago

I think.. that's crazy.

The feminists and the gay rights activists have always been allies, more or less, because they are both fighting against the same destructive patriarchal values. Patriarchy devalues women, and any man who is thought of as feminine, and there are huge psychological similarities between misogyny and homophobia.

And FYI the radical feminists haven't disappeared, they just get less mainstream press.

* * * FedEx just took NINE days to send me an "overnight" package. * * *

[–] epa101 15 years ago

Yes, they are associated together as "New Social Movements". I'm not saying that the gay rights movement deliberately killed radical feminism. My theory is that, in the minds of the less politically interested, the gay rights movement disproved many stereotypes about men, and that worked against radical feminism. The average Joe doesn't always think in the same way as people who are active in politics.

Can you show me the website of a radical feminist organisation still going please? I'd be interested to know, as I searched high and low for one in the UK five years ago, and there was literally nothing. I had to change what I was doing my assignment on!

[–] otter 15 years ago

WTF "New social movements"? Both are older than you are, I'm sure.

Anyway, the Nationa Organization for Women is right where it always was, it just isn't fashionable any more so it doesn't get as much press as it did.
http://www.now.org/

As for "stereotypes about men", well, that was never a big part of feminism. Feminism (and gay rights activism) were all about trying to change societal attitudes and value systems that hurt women and devalued the feminine, not in promoting stereotypes about men. And the thoughless non-political types you seem to be talking about tend to think gay man aren't "real men", so they wouldn't apply any stereotypes about men as widely as you seem to think.

I could go on, but I am not under the impression that you're very teachable.

* * * FedEx just took NINE days to send me an "overnight" package. * * *

[–] epa101 15 years ago

Yes, "New Social Movements" is the phrase. It even has a Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_social_movements You are right that they're older than I am.

I have heard of the NOW in the USA. There is no British equivalent though.

I think that was a rather snide response to what was just an idea from my part. I was careful to specify -radical- feminism rather than just any sort of feminism. In the 1980s, women used to march through UK cities chanting, "Men off the streets!" Porn shops were burnt down and pornographic billboards were defaced. You don't get that anymore. There are the mainstream feminists - the Harriet Harmans and Caroline Flints - but no syndicates of radical feminists out for revolution.

EDIT: I'd like to add that the wave of radical feminism in mid-1980s Britain was generally not supported by the gay rights movement, which may be a reason why it died out before long.

[–] vincebruno11 15 years ago

speaking of Andrea Dworkin, she used to say that violence is the core identity of ALL men. how can you take serious a person who says they are working for equal rights when they paint all men with the same brush?

[–] cookiela2001 15 years ago

<< speaking of Andrea Dworkin, she used to say that violence is the core identity of ALL men. >>

She should have specified she meant straight men.

[–] Samus Aran 15 years ago

Which wouldn't have made it one iota less sexist.

[–] cookiela2001 15 years ago

I was kidding.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MeanerWithTheScenery 15 years ago

I think feminist activism simply decreased as gender equality increased, which is what you would expect.

.

[–] IronWings2112 14 years ago

@Meaner, too bad it is yet to be equal between the genders the pay disparity for the same job proves it alone, but there are many more inconsistencies. Therefore feminism is still needed.

BTW I am a straight man, and a feminist, anyone can be one. It is not about man-hating, it is for equality. Equality for all is my main cause.

[–] victoria_liie 13 years ago

Omg, IronWings thank you! Feminism has gotten such a bad rumor lately, nobody seems to understand exactly that: Its about equal rights, not man-hating lesbians.

[–] lyris1-1 13 years ago

The reason people think that feminism isn't about equality is probably because it rarely lives up to its claims. Feminists on the whole do not speak out against injustices towards men; worse, they often shout down men who do bring up these issues.

I don't hate feminists at all, in fact I think I would agree with them much more than I would disagree. But they can't claim to be about equality for everyone while totally ignoring men's problems. They often are under the impression that men are 100% privileged creatures who don't suffer from any social issues whatsoever, which is nonsense.

This does bring me to a point, though: where were the lesbians in Harvey Milk's campaign? Beyond the one girl (who more than pushed her weight), it seems to be the case that it was men who kickstarted and fought the gay equality fight. Maybe because gay men, even today, are much more likely to be attacked than gay women.

[–] victoria_liie 13 years ago

Oh, I've read and researched a lot about feminism since my post and had a change of heart. I no longer claim to be a feminist. I completely agree. For example nobody talks about how in America just as many or maybe even more (I don't remember the numbers right now) men are subject to rape (due to prison standards) than women? Yet rape of women is a huge issue in the feminist debate. Breast cancer gets A TON of attention but prostate cancer kills just as many. And in Norway (where I'm from anyway) people talk about equal pay - but we have equal pay its just that women more often than men lean towards professions involving people care (child services, social worker, nurse ect) while men are more prone to work leading to leader positions - which obviously will lead to women earning less on an average, but they do have all the same opportunities ect.

During that post I was taking an Women Today class and was to easily influenced. Did inspire me to do some research though.

[–] lyris1-1 13 years ago

Yes, those are all the sorts of things I mention.

The role of academia in feminism is interesting. I remember being subject to some similar distortions at university.

For example, in a sociology class, we were told that a tennis player (I forget which) had spoken out against equal pay for women.

I reacted in the way any decent person would: I said to my friend "What a ****".

Years later, I found out the real story. He objected to woman tennis players being paid the same wage for doing less work, as per the rules of the game. That little bit of information was not mentioned at the university.

Now I don't believe ANY feminist claims unless they're backed up by multiple unbiased sources.

[–] clytamnestra 12 years ago

a big problem with equal pay is that men and women simply choose different professions and different levels. so you can't just go 'women earn less on average'.

not only do a lot of women want to 'work with children' (leading to an over-supply of labor and reduced wages) but they are more often than men aiming for mid-level positions instead of the top of a company. aiming so high is a big risk and results in men being both MORE and LESS successful than women (depending on whether their gamble paid of).
but feminists are all about 'women should be in the top of companies' and never demand that 'we should train more female garbage-collectors, so that there can be total equality with as much garbage-women as garbage-men'.

as for rape: all the feminists shouting about how those evil men are constantly out to rape them just reaffirm the social idea that rape is somehow the epitome of manhood. a decent guy is than just a 'potential rapist' who has the self-control to keep his hands to himself.
a guy who gets raped has no place in this scenario: he failed at being a raping macho-man, but he isn't a woman and therefore can't be a victim either (except perhaps when he's gay and becomes just a sub-category of 'female victims', which ties in with epa101's ideas about gays and feminists).

scandinavia is known to be extremely good (or bad, depending on your point of view) with feminism and anti-racism and such. but i live in the netherlands and to me it just looks like an extreme version of the way we used to be in the '80s and '90s. with the intellectual elite rolling around in their own moral superiority ('look at us being nice to foreigners and bending over backwards to make them feel at home here') but completely oblivious to growing social unrest among the under-class of society.
that underclass felt (not without reason) that they were far worse of after a life of working hard and paying taxes and not being criminal than a lazy uneducated immigrant who never worked in his new country (only collected welfare) or even a horrible criminal (anders breivik who got a nice 3-room apartment complete with a half-dozen servants to entertain him and lots of free time to work on his memoir as 'reward' for killing all those people in cold blood).
and if that underclass voiced their displeasure (in the '80s or '90s) they'd be accused of being racist or of being a barbarian who cares nothing for rehabilitation of (petty) criminals and only thinks of criminal law as vehicles for brute revenge. this way the intellectuals could feel good about themselves ('look how understanding i am, even to criminals'), while the rest of the country paid the price: paying high taxes to finance all those 'be nice to foreigners and criminals' projects (when somebody finally dared to investigate the effectiveness of those projects it turned out most were a huge waste of money). or being confronted with the guy who murdered your husband being released after just a few short years in prison (after he made some empty claims about 'being really sorry about killing your husband in cold blood'). and don't you dare protest his release, or even ask that he doesn't contact you, you revenge-happy harpy

[–] BlindeKonijN 12 years ago

No, there is need for gender equality for both sexes, not just for women.

Feminism should be abandoned as a title now, because it has done it's work, any more usage of it suggests that women in our society are treated worse than men, which is complete bollocks.

Most of the time when you ask a feminist to name a men's right's issue, let alone a few, they can't give you a single one. They have been tricked into thinking that it's about men and women, but actually all that feminists groups care about is women. (Not neccesarily people who identify as feminists).

[–] poolboyg88 12 years ago

Yes, these women hating users are indeed ignorant, and hateful. No facts or evidence. It's amusing, then you get a little sad that there's people like this still in the world.

Great movie by the way. Again, it's a little sad that there are such ignorant, and hateful anti-gays in the world still.

[–] Gambit771 12 years ago

@Poolboy Well done for proving epa right and otter wrong with your first sentence.

Couldn't have done it better myself

[–] clytamnestra 12 years ago

@epa
interesting idea. i don't know if you're right but it's obvious that the mere existence of gay men is a problem when you are trying to convince everyone that every single man is a (potential) rapist and therefore severe measures are in order to protect women (taking away a few rights from men, such as the right to see their children or the right to be graded in school with the exact same criteria as girls, to deliberately put them some steps below women on the social ladder)

[–] Wendy1967 12 years ago

Hmm. Not too sure about that!

[–] venanttout 9 years ago

Gays and RadFem (often lesbians) have NEVER been friends. They allied against common ennemies, but that's it.

Of course, some gay persons and some lesbians developped real frienship. But as groups, it is simply not true. Check among honnest people who knows the backstory (no pun indeed)of the LGBT community...

It was - at best- a marriage of reason,but there were lots of internal fights and backstabbing.

Today, the war keeps on. Gay ar labelled 'cis gendered oppressors' by RadFem and some Trans leaders.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/03/22/nus-tells-lgbt-societies-to-abolish-gay-mens-reps-because-they-dont-face-oppression/