"Wait a minute here. People weren't calling Obama an elitist because he's a "guzillionaire" or because he was making fun of "the little guy" like "Joe the Plumber"
Then why do they call him an elitist?
Why do they call him a terrorist and an Arab and a Muslim? Because when you don't like someone you call them names. You may not be aware of this, but being called an elitist is hardly ever a compliment.
"I'm an independent."
I always love this line, usually it's code for "I'm a democrat who doesn't like labels"
So, basically, you're telling me there are only two sides to this issue? You can only be on the red team or the blue team, and since I'm clearly not on your team (red) I must be on the other team (blue).
Perhaps you would do better to demonstrate that your team is open minded by respecting my desire to not be affiliated with one particular group. This is the reason why I can't embrace people like you, no matter your affiliation. Is always the "us vs them" mentality. "If you're not one of US you're one of THEM!"
For a while I considered myself a Libertarian, but there are too many weirdos in that party so I went back to being independent. I don't like weirdos that are unable or unwilling to see things from the perspective of others. You're falling into that category. That's also another reason why I'm supporting Obama, because he's man enough to admit (as seen at the first debate) when he agrees with is opponent.
"I don't like the Dems enough to be one, but it's crystal clear that most Republicans, especially the rich ones, don't give a damn about "the little guy" until it's election time."
Oh we care about the little guy enough to say that small business and people who have succeeded in life are not to be punished for their success. We say that you have a right to keep more of your OWN money, and to live in a nation of true liberty with less intrusive government.
Did not Senator Obama state he exempts small businesses from his tax increase? Besides, if you think McCain isn't going to have to raise somebody's taxes during his term you're crazy, especially with the war and the economy the way it is.
"He's not like you and me, the people that didn't go to nice schools, he's to smart to run the country. Oh, Obama has only one house? Well, he's an elitist."
Obama is dangerous, not because he's smart, but because he's a socialist idealist. He's dangerous because he's naive to the realities of the world. He's dangerous for many reasons, the fact that he has book smarts doesn't bother me, it's that his upbringing clouds his judgment.
First, Obama isn't a socialist. There are elements of socialism in our government because it wouldn't work if it was purely one thing. Social Security, for example. But I'm guessing you're one of the people that's so afraid that Obama wants to tax the wealthy in order to help the struggling that you'd rather your fellow Americans that are struggling to keep their head above water drown.
If you let the wealthy 5% of America consume the wealth while most of the other 95% starve then you're looking at a catastrophe... like we are currently going through. How did the economy go in the toilet again? Are you not watching the news? Look at the mortgage crisis. Look at Joe the Plumber even. Under Obama's plan those people would've had more money to spend on their house, Joe would've had more money to buy the business he wanted. Under McCain's plan those people will either be doing the same or worse as they are now. You're okay with that?
"The man ALWAYS talks about the middle class, teachers, education, health care. He's plans aren't 100% solid, but they look promising."
When Obama does it, it's genuine, and when republicans do it they're just chasing votes from people they don't care about... If you really think tht making $250k and up is TRULY wealthy, then you're crazy.
Well, then McCain is crazy because he congratulated Joe the Plumber on being rich at the last debate. No, $250 isn't "wealthy" like Bill Gates is wealthy, but it's enough that one making that much can carry a tax increase and still do well. If you're making that much you're not struggling to feed your family or send your kids to school.
But back to what you said about being genuine, during the first and second presidential debates, McCain didn't, not once, mention the middle class. It wasn't until people pointed it out and "Joe the Plumber" came about that he mentioned them. This, to me, says the middle class weren't important enough for him to remember or speak about, even after hearing Obama mention them. I just don't see how a man with 7 houses and 11 or so cars doesn't mention the middle class and his middle class supporters don't see red flags.
I want to know why everyone buys into this idea of universal healthcare wen it doesn't work well for any country who has it. Not Canada, or France, or the UK, or even Sweden. It's a broken and flawed system that leads to inadequate care. McCain has the truly good idea of giving a tax dredit of $5k for health care because private healthcare is always better healthcare, and individual choice when it comes to healthcare is better than government choice.
McCain's $5k credit is taxable and would simply be a drop in the bucket for most people. I do like it when he talks about making health care competitive, but it reminds me of his "less regulation free trade". It leaves the door open for people to be taken advantage of. I can't afford to go across state lines every time I need to see a doctor if the best plan is in another state.
"Obama wants to tax rich people and help tax payers that are struggling"
Why punish people who succeed? Why be so spiteful of the people who actually create the jobs in this country, who keep the economy rolling. Have you ever gotten a job from a poor person? Give me one GOOD and fair reason why the rich should pay more.
Oh man, how I love this statement. No, you can't get a job from a poor person.
BECAUSE THEY'RE POOR! Obama wants to make LESS people poor, while McCain wants the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer! THAT is class warfare! "You're poor? Well screw you!" Instead of "You're poor? Well let me help you out."
This is EXACTLY the problem I have with some Republicans. They just don't give a shht. They don't care about the less fortunate. I know people working two jobs and still would be considered "poor". That's not fair. It's NOT FAIR. People don't WANT to be poor, but screw them. If you're poor you don't deserve help, according to some Republicans. Homeless? Sucks to be you? If that is the future McCain wants to lead this country in than he can go to hell. To completely blow off poor people and hoard all your money and refuse to help the lower/middle class is just plain evil and selfish and un-American. I don't believe in communism or pure absolute socialism, but I do believe in helping people.
I was going to comment on the rest of what you said, but I'm done. It's pointless. I believe that people should help others and you believe in every man for himself. I don't see what good is money when the economy isn't worth a bucket of cat poop at the moment. When the rich start losing money because too many people are too poor to buy food, gas, cars, houses, etc maybe you'll understand my point of view. You can't have an economy if people can't afford to buy anything.
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trompos
16 years ago
Why do they call him a terrorist and an Arab and a Muslim? Because when you don't like someone you call them names. You may not be aware of this, but being called an elitist is hardly ever a compliment.
He did go to Harvard, Colombia, and he owns a Million plus dollar home. I think it’s fair to call him an elitist.
“So, basically, you're telling me there are only two sides to this issue? You can only be on the red team or the blue team, and since I'm clearly not on your team (red) I must be on the other team (blue). “
If you were truly an independent I would accept that. You clearly are not. When was the last time you voted republican?
“For a while I considered myself a Libertarian, but there are too many weirdos in that party so I went back to being independent. I don't like weirdos that are unable or unwilling to see things from the perspective of others. You're falling into that category. That's also another reason why I'm supporting Obama, because he's man enough to admit (as seen at the first debate) when he agrees with is opponent. “
In this post alone you come out in favor of socialized healthcare, a “progressive tax sstem” pseudo-socialism like social security, and a great number of other things that are clearly counter to libertarian principles. You stopped calling yourself a libertarian because you’re not a libertarian, ever think of that? Libertarian is used by liberals who want to be called something new and different. It’s cool to say at parties, it makes you sound different. Too bad Libertarians and old school paleo con republicans like myself are basically the same, we’re identical on fiscal issues.
“Did not Senator Obama state he exempts small businesses from his tax increase? Besides, if you think McCain isn't going to have to raise somebody's taxes during his term you're crazy, especially with the war and the economy the way it is. “
Obama says a lot of things. A small business is still small if it makes $5 million, from $5mil and under you are a small business. You’re actually believing a politician on an issue like this? Look at the man’s voting record. When McCain says something like that he backs it up with a voting record to prove it.
First, Obama isn't a socialist. There are elements of socialism in our government because it wouldn't work if it was purely one thing. Social Security, for example. But I'm guessing you're one of the people that's so afraid that Obama wants to tax the wealthy in order to help the struggling that you'd rather your fellow Americans that are struggling to keep their head above water drown.
Obama IS a socialist. He’s FOR socialized medicine, redistribution of wealth (remember what he said to Joe the Plumber?) he’s for many socialist programs. And YES our gov. has allowed socialism to sneak in to our system since the days of FDR’s failed New Deal which prolonged the great depression. Read FDR’s Folly for the facts. This country saw 3 depressions before the great depression all were fixed in under 2 years, in 1870 we faced a depression much greater than the one of 1929 and escaped it in record time. Social Security doesn’t work, I’m 27 and pay into a system that I will not benefit from in my old age. it’s a broken and failed system. A purely capitalist system worked in Hong Kong prior to 1997 it worked in this country and laid the foundation for our success, it worked for post 20th century Europe.
“If you let the wealthy 5% of America consume the wealth while most of the other 95% starve then you're looking at a catastrophe... like we are currently going through. How did the economy go in the toilet again? Are you not watching the news? Look at the mortgage crisis. Look at Joe the Plumber even. Under Obama's plan those people would've had more money to spend on their house, Joe would've had more money to buy the business he wanted. Under McCain's plan those people will either be doing the same or worse as they are now. You're okay with that? “
Who said anything about starving the poor? We say, let the system be open so that anyone can make a living. And stop trying to feed me the zero sum fallacy. Wealth is NOT ZERO SUM. The financial crisis is also not the fault of capitalism. It is the fault of socialism. Fannie was a creation of the new deal. It became “privatized” in 1970 but was really a bloted hybrid of gov. and private interest. CRAs and gov. intrusion into bank policies and people getting loans they could not pay (POOR PEOPLE) is the root of this problem. Don’t try to sell me a bill of good.
“Well, then McCain is crazy because he congratulated Joe the Plumber on being rich at the last debate. No, $250 isn't "wealthy" like Bill Gates is wealthy, but it's enough that one making that much can carry a tax increase and still do well. If you're making that much you're not struggling to feed your family or send your kids to school. “
I make well over $250k a year and I have my struggle. I struggle to pay for heating oil in my building, and the 8k tax bill on it, the 16k tax bill on my home, gas prices, gov. regulation that leads me to pay fines for frivolous violations on my property. I may have a large income but I also have larger expenses than these so called poor people. As wealth I relative, so is poverty. I know these “poor people” they live in my building, they have better cable than I do, drive better cars, if they want to stop struggling they should live more frugally.
“But back to what you said about being genuine, during the first and second presidential debates, McCain didn't, not once, mention the middle class. It wasn't until people pointed it out and "Joe the Plumber" came about that he mentioned them. This, to me, says the middle class weren't important enough for him to remember or speak about, even after hearing Obama mention them. I just don't see how a man with 7 houses and 11 or so cars doesn't mention the middle class and his middle class supporters don't see red flags. “
So all he had to do was mention them? And what does his 7 homes and 11 cars have to do with anything? Why not leave the man alone with his success? I say GOOD FOR HIM, and good for Obama too who has millions now. Good for Kerry and Ted Kennedy and all the rich dems.
“McCain's $5k credit is taxable and would simply be a drop in the bucket for most people. I do like it when he talks about making health care competitive, but it reminds me of his "less regulation free trade". It leaves the door open for people to be taken advantage of. I can't afford to go across state lines every time I need to see a doctor if the best plan is in another state.”
You’re distorting the truth, or buying into Obama’s lies. Read this from Politifact..
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/803/
“Oh man, how I love this statement. No, you can't get a job from a poor person. BECAUSE THEY'RE POOR! Obama wants to make LESS people poor, while McCain wants the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer! THAT is class warfare! "You're poor? Well screw you!" Instead of "You're poor? Well let me help you out." “
Obama wants to give a hand out to the “poor” at the expense of the rich. Another fallacy is the rich get richer poor get poorer. The rich do get richer, and the poor get richer too history backs me up on this.
“This is EXACTLY the problem I have with some Republicans. They just don't give a shht. They don't care about the less fortunate. I know people working two jobs and still would be considered "poor". That's not fair. It's NOT FAIR. People don't WANT to be poor, but screw them. If you're poor you don't deserve help, according to some Republicans. Homeless? Sucks to be you? If that is the future McCain wants to lead this country in than he can go to hell. To completely blow off poor people and hoard all your money and refuse to help the lower/middle class is just plain evil and selfish and un-American. I don't believe in communism or pure absolute socialism, but I do believe in helping people. “
If you genuinely need my help I’ll give it, at MY discretion, NOT gov. force. And I struggled so did my parents but we made it with no hand outs. What’s not fair about working two jobs and still being poor? Who’s fault is that? Te evil rich people taking ll the money? Get over it. You seem to be one of these failures in life who hates people who succeed. I believe in personal responsibility and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Read some Friedman, O’Rourke, and Smith. Then get an extra job, vote republican and maybe gov. will stay out of your way enough and get out of your pocket enough so you can be rich.
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C.S.Wood
16 years ago
Okay, obviously this isn't going to go anywhere because the policy stuff is debatable (obviously) and I've had the displeasure of watching far more informed people arguing the same points on various news stations, but I will reply to these few things
He did go to Harvard, Colombia, and he owns a Million plus dollar home. I think it’s fair to call him an elitist.
He went to school that many parents are saving money to send their kids to and owns one house, so he's an elitist. McCain didn't go to the fancy schools, but owns 7 houses and several cars, so that makes him an average guy. Got it.
If you were truly an independent I would accept that. You clearly are not. When was the last time you voted republican?
The last time I voted for a democrat, which is never. This will be the first presidential election I vote in because I registered too late to vote in 04. And no, I was not going to vote for Bush. If Nader actually had a chance to win I'd probably vote for him. When's the last time you even considered voting outside your party?
Someday in the future I may want to vote for a republican, but not right now. I respect John McCain for his service, but he is not who we need right. If Obama appointed him as one of his chief advisers I'd be all for it. But based on the man's current choices (namely his VP selection), I don't feel he should be put in a position such as President of the United States at this time.
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trompos
16 years ago
I never said McCain is an average guy. He's got millions and attended the Naval Academy and comes from a high ranking military family. Elitist brings to mind a person who believes he's better than you are because he attended a fansy school, has a self-righteous aire because he's studied some socialist philosopher and tells you what you should be doing, that's how Obama comes off. He's even been advised by his campaign to tone that down. McCain is a guy who has money but not really one of these pompous a$$es. He's a regular guy on that level.
Just look how Joe the Plumber was treated by biden and the Obama campaign. "how about you get a license?" There's this feeling among liberals, this "I'm smarter than you are, I'm the smartest guy in the room, listen to me" feeling.
"The last time I voted for a democrat, which is never. This will be the first presidential election I vote in because I registered too late to vote in 04. And no, I was not going to vote for Bush. If Nader actually had a chance to win I'd probably vote for him. When's the last time you even considered voting outside your party?"
So you have it in for republicans I see. Nader? Come on, he's just a "crazy" on the left. He is what libertarians are to the republican party. I would vote for Barr and even considered it in this eection year because McCain came off as too liberal on many things.
"I respect John McCain for his service, but he is not who we need right."
How exactly is Obama more qualified?
"But based on the man's current choices (namely his VP selection), I don't feel he should be put in a position such as President of the United States at this time."
So choosing a woman with more executive experience than both Democrat candidates combined. A woman who, because she had 2 bad interviews is suddenly unfit to lead. I never understood this.
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