MovieChat Forums > Recount (2008) Discussion > Superb film: but why not a pencil and pa...

Superb film: but why not a pencil and paper?

posted 16 years ago by chris-rogers2
18 replies | jump to latest

This snuck up on me last week by accident on More4 (digital channel in the UK), and I'm glad - I thought it was stunningly well done. I assume the script was accurate, ie factual, about the astounding levels of corruption, mismanagement, bias, improper influence, incompetence and fraud that caused this cancerous incident; certainly the dialogue and performances were superb. As someone said, the outcome we knew but like the best of such films, it keeps you hooked throughout.

It did a good job of explaining technical issues without patronising or seeming awkward, though as a Brit I'd have appreciated a little more detail on the compexities of the US's layered legal system (county/state/federal) etc.

And it never did answer the simple question other Brits posed from the day it happened - why the heck doesn't the US use bits of paper for their ballot forms, marked by a simple pencil cross? It may be crude, but it works. And we get the results (from c.25m people) the next day...

[–] Kmadden2004 16 years ago

It's gotten worse in some places since 2000. There are some places in the US that use a computer touch-screen connected to a central server to register votes. No paper trail and open to skilled internet hackers. How is anybody supposed to know if anything goes wrong (and how the hell are they supposed to investigate it if something does go wrong).

A pencil and paper is pretty much irrefutable...

Baba O'Riley... the best song in the world

[–] quatrixj 16 years ago

All activity is logged on secure, reliable servers. It's just as good as your "paper trail". And your comment regarding hackers tells me that you're just paranoid about technology. Stop trying to fight progress because of things you don't understand.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] imdb-8139 16 years ago

Only in isolated cases.

A voter verified paper trail is an option on some machines, and obviously the right approach. However very few of these machines are being chosen because they cost more and the people making these purchasing decisions aren't as well informed as we'd like.

There are many different machines out there, with many different networking approaches. I have yet to see one in use in the USA that looks even vaguely secure, though.

Follow the Freedom to Tinker blog if this interests you: http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] morachi 16 years ago

Why would you assume it was accurate when it was obviously done from a posistion sympathetic with Gore. You should realize that HBO is a very pro Demoratic party network. Bill Maher's show is a weekly endorsement of the Democrats while bashing the Republicans.

I think it's interesting to note that when they completed the full hand recount of all the counties and not just the 4 largest demoractic leaning ones well after the election was over (which counted dimples and hanging chad) Bush was still the winner.

As far as why we don't use pencil and paper is that we machine count all the ballots. Elections are tallied hours after the polls are closed here. In theory the punch card method is supposed to be an improvement on pencil and paper which we once did.

[–] Jonnybjoel 16 years ago

My apologies, I had a very lengthy post, and the realized that the response was to a specific opinion within this thread, and not the actual thread. So I will make a new one with my point, which is a response to a claim in the previous post.

[–] LittleMatchGirl 16 years ago

We use pen and paper here in Canada and they are counted by hand and usually know the results within a half hour of the polls closing (or at least we did for our last federal election). It isn't hard.

Our polls have approximately 700 voters assigned to each one.. so even if every single person in the country showed up to vote, the folks at each poll would still only have a maximum of 700 or so to count.

--------------------------
Posting and You: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] HHFan 16 years ago

Rubbish. It was sympathetic with THE TRUTH - why is it some of you idiots insist on clinging to your fair tales of who you think it should be as opposed to how it has been proven to be.
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Lets nuke the site from orbit - its the only way to be sure.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] neilyburger 16 years ago

"It was obviously done from a posistion sympathetic with Gore"

It's kind of hard not to be sympathetic to someone who had their presidency stolen from them...

"Bill Maher's show is a weekly endorsement of the Democrats while bashing the Republicans."

It's kind of hard not to bash Rebublicans, they are about one rung above creationists on the ladder of intelligence...

"In theory the punch card method is supposed to be an improvement on pencil and paper which we once did."

Must be a Republican theory so...

PS: Whatever you poor Americans believe about Republicans or have allowed them to convince the majority of you, just know that the rest of us outside of America in the free world cannot be fooled so easily. The lies, cheating, slander, hypocrisy and lack of morality which characterizes Republicans is glaringly obvious to the rest of us. Democrats in America: don't worry. Republicans are a laughing stock worldwide, and were before Bush made them utterly hilarious. We laugh at Fox News and other biased media...propoganda doesn't work on us Rupert...

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] peter_j_hunter 16 years ago

Neilyburger: "Republicans ... are about one rung above creationists on the ladder of intelligence"

You give them a thoroughly undeserved compliment, I wouldn't put then that far above dinosaurs!!

[–] holyspicoli 15 years ago

I think it's interesting to note that when they completed the full hand recount of all the counties and not just the 4 largest demoractic leaning ones well after the election was over (which counted dimples and hanging chad) Bush was still the winner.

As noted in other threads, this is not true. Depending on which standards were used, Gore would have won in several cases. We'll never know of course WHICH standard was ultimately going to be used statewide since the US Supreme Court halted the recount, but to characterize the recounts as a futile pursuit for Gore is fallacious.

Read both below articles in their entirety for a detailed look at this.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/76207/page/1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html

[–] cjn102 16 years ago

Ha ha, that's true - or the one that can control your mind will stand outside getting everyone to vote for who he wants.

If you like I'm sure us Brits can send over some experts to oversee free and fair elections, just if you're struggling...

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] wt1963 8 years ago

I realize I'm eight years late on this one, but thought I would answer your question...the simple answer to which is that oftentimes on a typical election day here in the United States, the race for president isn't the only one on the ballot. There are numerous other so-called "down ballot" elections as well, such as for the US Congress. Depending on the year, there also might be elections for the US Senate, state governors and state legislatures, along with other statewide officials.

Then, depending on where you live, there are judicial elections to elect judges...not to mention other offices such as local mayors, city council members, and school board members. In addition, there might be a state or local referendum or two thrown in for good measure.

Where I vote in presidential election years there must be at least 50 separate elections to be decided, when you include the large number of judges that need to be voted on. The ballot can seem endless. So as you can see, 130 million people casting votes in so many different elections requires a massive effort to count all of the votes in all of the elections.

I must say that I do follow UK politics closely and like the election nights there as well, with all of the different declarations and the final result being announced by the declarations officer for all to see.