MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > What now for Jamie?

What now for Jamie?

posted 7 years ago by Otter (24464)
13 replies | jump to latest

Okay, he's left Cersei and is heading North to join Jon and Dany.

Is anyone in their camp going to have the brains to point out that now that he's officially out of the kingsguard, he can claim the Westerlands as his birthright? And that doing so would cut out a good chunk of Cersei's supporters, and throw many more into conflict that would leave them unable to come to her aid? Okay, Tyrion has the brains but he wants the Lannister lands for himself, and he's not going to want to push Jamie's claim. Maybe Sansa will bring it up, she'll always be looking for ways to keep Cersei a minimal threat.

One possible end game is one I hadn't thought of, but that someone on another board suggested. If neither Jon, Dany, nor Cersei survives the long's night... he's about the only person left with any claim to be any recent monarch's heir. He could be king, and marry Brienne, and she'd be there to tell him what the right thing to do would be, not that he'd always do the right thing.

[–] Alerra (244) 7 years ago

Gendry. I don't know that he necessarily would choose to pursue it, but he'd have a claim.

But I don't know that Jaime could claim the Westerlands as his birthright though, because when one joins the Kingsguard, don't they join for life? Not to say that he can't still use his influence to divide the Lannister soldiers and make them go north with him, but now that he has officially left the guard, does he have any right to the Westerlands? (I don't know the answer to that, btw.)

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Didn't King Tommen officially boot him out of the kingsguard during the whole Sparrows flap? Of course he was still Cersei's slave so his function at court didn't change much, but if I'm right he's in a position to make a ton of trouble for Cersei.

As for his right to the Westerlands, it's like anything in Westerosian politics - the law doesn't matter, there is no high court there's only the word of an extremely fallible monarch, so what matters is the number of lords with armies who are willing to back up any claim you may make. If the Westerland bannermen are fed up with Cersei, they'll follow Jamie, regardless of the law.

And that, BTW, is why Gendry won't be king. He doesn't have lords with armies backing him up. Jon is in the process of getting the kind of backers that make a monarch, soon he'll have the armies of the North, the Wildlings, the Dothraki and the Unsullied, and whoever else joins Dany's side behind him.

[–] GrowingFamily (271) 7 years ago

One must be able to leave the kingsguard because Tywin Lannister tried to make a deal with Jamie to leave his service and take his rightful place as the heir to Casterly Rock. That was before all the really big trouble started but it does show that Jamie's own father Tywin thought he could leave his service and still have a right to be the heir.

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

Tywin could do it if he had influence over the king. Joffrey was at least scared of him a bit, so he probably would be able to get Jaime released from his oath, and that was his plan. With Tommen, there was no question because Tywin had full control.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Tywin was Hand of the King at that point, he was running the government and if he said something was the law it was the law. That's the thing about the laws of Westeros, they're very nebulous. There's no constitution there, no high court, no checks and balances, just the word of the king, or the Hand if the king isn't competent or can't be bothered.

Besides, Joffrey had already booted Ser Barristan out of the kingsguard, and Tywin allowed it. Therefore it was legal.

So yeah, I hope someone tells Jamie that yeah, he can actually be of a lot of use to Danerys. at least when it comes to getting Cersei off her back.

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

I've got a bad feeling Jaime won't make it through the next couple episodes. He can warn Jon and Dany about Cersei flipping on them, and I think he will be with Brienne long enough to get her pregnant. Then he gets close enough to the Night King to fight him, just to discover the Valyrian steel doesn't hurt the Night King like it does the other White Walkers. So he goes down fighting, but not before revealing an important piece of info.

[–] Alerra (244) 7 years ago

It may have been legal, but I got the impression that it had ever been done before -- kicking someone out of the Kingsguard. In addition to Ser Barriston being so insulted, the other people who were there seemed surprised when Joffrey did it.

So Jaime leaving the Kingsguard may be legal, if allowed by the crown (although assuming he is still part of it, I don't think Cersei WOULD allow it), but not something that anyone had done before. It would be seen as breaking one's oath, since he presumably would have made some sort of solemn vow when he joined.

Then again, Jaime has always been seen as some sort of a maverick when it came to his Kingsguard vows, seeing as he killed one king and publicly cuckolded another -- so I don't think anyone would be all that surprised if he was seen as reneging on his vows now.

[–] Kawada_Kira (7282) 6 years ago

Besides, Joffrey had already booted Ser Barristan out of the kingsguard, and Tywin allowed it. Therefore it was legal.

Tywin wasn't in a position to allow or disallow it. He was fighting in the Riverlands at the time. He later commented on how stupid the expulsion of Barristan from the Kingsguard was, and this was partly why he sent Tyrion to serve as Hand in his place while he was leading battles; so that Tyrion could stop Joffrey and his council from doing so many stupid things. This implies that if Tywin had been in King's Landing at the time, Barristan's enforced retirement would never have happened.

But yeah, it was never said that the expulsion of Barristan from the Kingsguard was illegal or anything; just that it was a really stupid thing to do because of how valuable he was as a knight and a recognized hero who was respected by the nobility and the common people. His very presence conferred legitimacy. When Tyrion showed up in King's Landing, he asked Cersei what she thought the people of the realm would do when they saw Barristan the Bold riding beside Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

Well, nobody objected to Barristan being kicked out of the kingsguard but Barristan, so there's a recent precedent. Jamie being out of the kingsguard will be accepted both because of the precedent, and because Westeros is at such a level of chaos that everybody who would normally object has more important things to worry about.

Besides Westeris now has two claimants to the monarchy, and they're each going to give their own rulings on points of law. If Danerys says he's out of the kingsguard and lorf of the Westerlands then the ruling is legal in any lands she controls, and will be legal through all Westeros if she outlives Cercei and takes the throne. And she will say that, both to undercut Cersei's base of support, and becauseBarristan served her so well. She'll think having another ex-kingsguardsman is great!

And Jon the ex-nightswatchman can't object either.

[–] Volley (3441) 7 years ago

Good point OP, Jaime now has claim to whatever remains of Lannister forces and territory, but I have no doubt writers are going to keep it as if the unstoppable Cersei maintains all of the remaining Lannister power.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

As a matter of Westerosi law, I think all of Cersei's or Jaime's claims are null and void due to their treachery against the Crown.

As a practical matter, Jaime may yet redeem himself through gallantry in battle against the White Walkers. Still, I think he will ultimately be subordinate to Tyrion, who either Dany or Jon/Aegon will name as the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands and the Warden of the West.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

That is the problem with having Jamie and Tyrion on the same side, if Queen Dany is victorious, she can only make on Lord of the Westerlands and Guardian of the West.

So I think one of them is going to snuff it in season 8, but I can't actually predict which one.

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

They're probably not going to have the feudal system in place after the known conflicts are settled. Dany said she wanted to break the wheel and we already know when she left Meereen she wanted the people to elect their own leaders. And also she wants to leave the world in a better place than when she found it. The White Walkers are surely going to lay some destruction, and the people who survive will have to stick together to rebuild. The show could end with a situation like that, or more likely they flash forward 50 years and they're right back to having kings and lords fighting each other again.