Answering Questions


In defense of the last episode - Beyond the Wall has gotten a lot of vitriol for the plot holes. And a good deal of that criticism was rightly earned because it requires a lot of after the fact rationalizations rather than naturally implied explanations within the context of the story. The biggest one is time compression. The gendry getting to the wall, to send the raven to Dany so she can get back to Jon part of the story was irritating and really can't be explained other than to say, suspend your disbelief. But there are a lot of other things in the episode that have raised questions or that people say make no sense. I thought I'd take a stab at some.

Why did the NK take out Viserion rather than Drogon first?
Simple answer would be a judgement call. He had a clearer shot at Viserion's heart and if he had wounded Drogon, Viserion was headed directly over his path and may have taken him out with Dragon breath.

Why did the NK wait so long to attack?
There have been a lot of practical explanations about how long it takes for a lake to freeze over. And those are plausible. We all know at this point that he has some kind of greensight. So what he knew, when he knew it and whether he planned to take a dragon are also plausible.

Was it too convenient for Benjen to come in at the last minute and why didn't he go with Jon?
Convenient yes. Although he could have been witnessing the entire skirmish and just been waiting for an opportunity to see if and when he was really needed. There are also plenty of reasons not to go with Jon. For one, there really was no time. Jon was freezing, he would have slowed down the riding time back to the wall and the wights were advancing. By staying behind he distracted them long enough for Jon to get away and get back faster.

Also, at this point, maybe he wanted to die. He was brought back for a purpose, and since he can no longer report to the 3 Eyed Raven Senior and the COTF since they are all dead, his purpose is fulfilled. Maybe he doesn't see any point in lingering in a world of endless winter as a half Walker. And we all know he can't pass beyond the wall.

Has Arya gone completely Carrot Top?
No. The note was enough to piss her off. And that was perfectly reasonable given her relationship to Sansa in the past. But I think most people missed the point of her last exchange with her sister. Whether Sansa knew it or not, she was actually playing the truth game with Arya. I interpreted Arya handing over the dagger as a symbolic gesture that she still trusted Sansa.

Did the NK go to Home Depot for the chains?
This one is a nitpick if I ever heard one. But some people are really annoyed by it. It seems perfectly reasonable and plausible to me that the army of the dead has been commandeering supplies at every outpost (including Hardhome). I assumed the chains could have been intended for the wights and walkers to climb the wall and/or pull chunks of it down with their wight giants. In any case there are numerous practical applications for them to have those at their disposal.

Did they retcon how to kill wights?
No. And another huge stupid complaint. In the past wights were killed by fire or really any other weapon, it just took longer. But thats not to say that dragonglass never worked on them in the past. It stand to reason if dragonglass works on a walker it will work on a wight and clearly it does so faster and more efficiently than a generic sword.

Sure these are rationalizations, but perfectly plausible. So if you are one to complain and quickly chalk it up to plot armor, I'd counter that by saying use your imagination.

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Very good points indeed, thank you!

However, I’m not sure if I can fully agree with this one:
»Why did the NK take out Viserion rather than Drogon first?
Simple answer would be a judgement call. He had a clearer shot at Viserion's heart«


First off, I don’t know much about dragon anatomy ;-) so I don’t know where their heart is, but the spear hit the area of Viserion's neck:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y6i3hoe11jyasq3/got-neck1.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/csfn50wuzen7bfm/got-neck2.png?dl=0

The thing is, it seems to me that the DID have a clear shot at Drogon's neck, too (it can be seen right below the NK's left armpit here):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dei8i113xu6g6k9/got-neck3.png?dl=0


Of course, Drogon could’ve moved his head any second, thus moving his neck out of the range.
But it seemed to me (of course, it’s quite possible that I’m wrong here) that it doesn’t even matter that much WHERE the spear hits. Just like it a poisoned arrow will kill you even if it hits you in your leg, these spears kill by magic more than by the actual wound. Again, that’s speculation only.


»and if he had wounded Drogon, Viserion was headed directly over his path and may have taken him out with Dragon breath.«

That does make sense: He thought of the repercussions if he’d missed at this first shot. If he had missed Viserion, probably nobody would’ve even noticed that he threw the spear at all. After all, they were quite occupied at that moment, so he would’ve get a second chance. If he had missed Drogon, they would’ve seen the spear that’s passing by.

So in the end, I guess I can agree that this point is plausible enough, too. :-)

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Just about Gendry getting back to the wall, the WWs are marching toward the wall, obviously getting close! It didn't seem to take a day for them to find the wights, so I dont know what all the fuss is about. I showed a time lapse.

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That's fine. On that case the WW should reach the wall next episode. They were at hardholme years ago. We've seen them run. There is real
Problems with the timeline

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If the WW were in a hurry, they would’ve attacked YEARS ago.
Do you remember when the first WW was seen? – In S01E01. And since he was seen by men of the Night’s Watch he can’t have been very far away from the wall.

Clearly, they have been waiting for something, most likely for winter to arrive and grow harder. They haven’t attacked yet because the time wasn’t right, NOT because they needed all that time to walk from Hardhome to Eastwatch-by-the-sea.

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I also assumed they have been scouting the areas of the north gathering as many bodies as they can to add to their army.

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Yeah it's been my guess they were going around building the wight army taking any of the wildling towns north of the wall. And It looks like they most certainly will be hitting the wall next episode.

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Where do those surface-to-air spears come from and how many are there. How do they make more?

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It presumably comes from the NK and the magic he wields in forging his weapons. I'd assume he can make as many as he wants to. Someone in another thread suggested that he had only three, one for each dragon. But there's no proof to suggest thats the case.

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Haha why is it perfectly plausible that the dead are gathering supplies?

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Supplies as in weapons and equipment. Equipment that might be useful at the wall. Not supplies as in food and medicine.

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Can you write the screenplay for the gathering of the chains scene?

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No. To me, its not that big of plot point to care about. Others have speculated that the NK knew he would need them specifically for the dragon because of his greensight.

But really, my post was about rationalizations to justify questions raised by an ill conceived screenplay. It deserves its criticisms.

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Here are a score more such questions...

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/23/16184306/game-of-thrones-season-7-white-walker-dragon-battle-dumb-no-sense

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I read this article. A lot of those questions attack the merit of the plan. And I agree, it was a half baked plan. I wrote another post pointing that out.

https://moviechat.org/tt0944947/Game-of-Thrones/599d4f145c792c0011b0af18/The-Good-Intentions-of-Jon-Dany-and-Ned

And then some of those questions about Gendry going for the wall having to do with time compression I pointed out as being dumb in the OP. I think I touched on a good portion of them.

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As for these:

Could Jon really not break away from the fight to get on the dragon with everybody else?
He was holding them off while the rest got on the dragon. Why he took so long once they were on there? Dramatic license.

How did Jon survive his plunge into the icy lake water at the hands of the wights, let alone pull himself out while bogged down by soaking wet clothing?
Anyone notice the steam rising off his bare chest on the boat. Targareyn blood runs hot.

Who jumped into the freezing lake to attach the giant chains to the submerged dragon body — the wights that previously wouldn’t enter the water?
Who cares? But they didn't enter water because they sink, they don't swim. But at the direction of the NK, they likely jumped in, sank to the bottom and chained Viserions head. And they are probably still down there.

Where even was Benjen, before showing up to rescue Jon out of nowhere?
Who cares? The question could be asked, why did Benjen show up at the last second to save Bran and Meera? Apparently looking out for his kin is what he does. What else does he have to do out there anymore?

How did thousands of supposedly terrifying and powerful wights not manage to kill anyone except anonymous redshirt wildings?
This is more of a complaint than a question.

Who truly believes that seeing a wight will actually convince Cersei to join Jon and Daenerys in battling the White Walkers?
Again it was a dumb plan paved with honorable intentions. This whole series has had moment after moment where other people are trying to get Cersei to see reason.

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"Who cares"? Several tens of millions of GoT fans globally? Lol

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Well I followed who cares by answering the question the best I could. I didn't write the episode

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Has anyone pointed out to Jon and Dany that Cersei technically has her own wight bodyguard? Like, maybe Jaime could have mentioned as much when he met with Tyrion about this very plan?
Not really the same thing. And another complaint rather than a valid question. If Jaime and Cersei see The Mountain as equivalent to a wight then they would accept the premise of an undead army marching south and either join the fight or say fuck off. Instead they agree to the parlay to see the evidence. Clearly they don't see The Mountain as undead.

Shouldn’t Tyrion, at the very least, know better than to bet so much on appealing to Cersei Lannister’s humanity?
It was his dumb plan because he is trying to look for the most peaceful solutions to everything. That's why he whined about the Tarly's execution. And as much as he loathes Cersei, I'm sure he doesn't want his remaining family to be destroyed in war. And by the way, this plan does not involve appealing to Cersei's humanity, just her common sense. I don't see how showing her a violent zombie is an appeal to her humanity so I don't agree with the phrasing of the question.

Why didn’t the group bring a raven with them to send a message back to Eastwatch in the event of trouble?
The raven probably would have died of exposure.

BTW, I had to reply three times because after a while of typing nothing was happening. There must be a character limit.

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