Who knows if they are going to marry but they are surely going to fuck.
shareIt's not like there's anything else to do on Dragonstone!
And they're FAR less related than most Targaryan husbands and wives! Not only are they not siblings, but Jon's mother was actually from a whole different family. Half of him isn't at all related, which is as good as the Targaryan gene pool gets.
I hope not as even with the Aunt/Nephew thing she is now on track to become madder than a box of frogs.
Plus Gendry is coming back in his little boat. A bastard son of Robert who she can legitimise, who Joffrey ordered dead, may be more useful in the marriage with the Lords in the South than the previously declared king of the North as we all know Jon bowed in that cave.
Gendry is a dirt poor bastard, and has no legal claim to Baratheon lands, wealth, or inheritance. The only way he could get any of that, and to become any sort of useful husband for a wannabe queen, is to be legitimized and declared heir to all the Baratheon lands... But that could only happen AFTER Cersei is deposed.
Really, right now the most strategic marriages for Danerys would be Robyn Arryn, who'd bring an army and a lot of money and one of the Seven Kingdoms with him, or Littlefinger, who'd just bring a lot of money and smarts. There's a bit of a shortage of eligible Lords in Westeros right now.
Gendry would be useful after being legtimised. But pre Cersai's being deposed Gendry is still useful. He is the last Baratheon standing, bastard or not, dirt poor or not.
There are records that the city watch in King's landing came after him when they killed all of Robert's bastards. He looks the spit of Robert at a young age. So the optics of the daughter of the mad king turning up saying she is willing to marry the strong and able bastard son of the usurper, whose reign was the last time the continent had real peace? And the two of them willingly to bring peace to the continent?
The lords of the south and those still standing in the riverlands may find that more appealing than Dany and the Bastard of an area they don't give a shit about or Robyn Arryn the weakling. Especially as the bastard of the north is talking about white walkers which they don't believe in and Robyn Arryn is so mentally weak.
Because unless there is a huge change between season 6 and 7 Robyn Arryn is a weak sickly boy who everyone knows is under the thumb of Littlefinger. Until Littlefinger is dead then he isn't a real political asset and they all know if Dany descends into madness Robyn himself isn't capable of taking over.
To the lords South of the Neck and Vale, Dany, Jon and Robyn can all have their mental facilities questioned. Dany needs a marriage to a person whose mental facilities can't have pot shots taken at so if the houses question her mental capabilities,if she doesn't burn them, she needs to turn and say I've got a strong husband who is capable - Gendry could fit that mould, especially as he isn't beholden to any house in the current set up.
"Yes Gendry would be useful after being legtimised. But pre Cersai's being deposed Gendry is still useful. He is the last Baratheon standing, bastard or not, dirt poor or not. He is the heir of all Baratheon lands. "
No, he's not the heir, bastards have zero right of inheritance unless they're legitimized by a monarch. And even if Dany legitimized him (Cersei would die first), he's still got no money, no land, no army, no following, no reputation, no friends in high places, zip nada diddly NOTHING that would be of use to wannabe Queen Danerys.
The only way Gendry would ever be legitimized is to perform some heroic act for a monarch who might be willing to legitimize a Baratheon bastard (Cersei would die first), and who wants to put an ally in charge of the Baratheon lands, instead of the unknown distant relative who'd legally inherit under current law. So no, the only way Gendry could help Danerys become queen is to do something heroic in her cause, and even that wouldn't be enough to make him a potential husband.
I think we have to disagree.
Robyn Arryn until Littlefinger is dead isn't a workable candidate. Jon is also a bastard and even if he isn't playing Littlefingers game Bran complicates matters.
For Dany even without any land yet, Gendry isn't beholden to the system as is - optically he works and fits with Dany's idea of breaking the wheel as he would be beholden to her . But for the Lords of the South he has all his marbles so if Dany is like her dad they have someone who could rule in her place.
Also he is of the people and a bastard of a royal house that has no other known claimants right now. His head has been on the block because of who his father was. That elevates his status as if him being a bastard meant he wasn't a threat to anyone Joffrey and Cersai wouldn't have sent troops after him and his half siblings. That fact they did gives him status and his story of at one point living under Twyn's nose would make him loved by the public so could elevate him to a player that Dany could use.
I don't think this is a case of agreeing to disagree, I think this is a case if you not understanding how things are done in Westeros.
Jon may be a bastard, but he's got land, one of the seven kingdoms, armies, importance, money (whatever was in the Bolton strongroom), allies, respect from Lords, high-born relatives who treat him like a big deal, friends in high places... all things which make him a potential husband for Dany, and all of which Gendry lacks.
And I think you are not understanding the game itself.
Ramsey said it, 'Bastards can rise high in the world'
Bastards even non legitimised ones can take over a house - they reverse the colours on the banner when they do. Hence why Jon is the White Wolf. It isn't simply because of Ghost. His banner should be a white wolf on a grey background.
And up until Lyanna Mormont opened her mouth Jon didn't have land - that was Sansa's, he didn't have money, that was Sansa's, it was Sansa's name that got them through the door with the Lords or didn't you notice her beside him when they pitched? Up until Lyanna Mormont opened her mouth Jon himself was still a non legitmised bastard, who's true born sister could remarry and kick him out of Winterfell if she wished. Whose true born brother has a claim on Winterfell that Littlefinger was trying to exploit until Bran told him no.
But Lyanna raised him up because she wanted to. If someone wants to raise Gendry because his presence is useful they can raise Gendry.
So if Jon bends the knee, Dany has his support no need to obviously solidify that further unless she wants too, which everyone expects. But what if she finds the southern lords don't fall in line? Her taking a Northern husband may not help with them as if the Southern lords are being pissy they can say Jon appears to have broken his oath to the nights watch before usurping his younger true born brother's right. And like it or not Dany needs to get and keep those lords on side and keep it and threats only go so far. Her turning up with a weakling boy as her husband does little either in fact it puts them on alert as all power is concentrated with Dany and the North.
But who is left with the potential to keep the southerners happy? Tyrion? He's the heir of Casterly Rock but he has so much baggage that he wouldn't be trusted. Dickon Tarly is probably dead, Samwell is a man of the night's watch, the Sands that are left are all female, Theon has no balls and is Iron Born. So who is left that we know of with a Southern link who the Southern Lords may find acceptable and shows Dany is willing to forgive the past and live peaceably? A capable Baratheon bastard who is in politic terms a clean slate could give Dany that viable option.
Sure, bastards can rise high, we've seen both Ramsay and Jon do do by working hard, winning battles, getting stuff done at the geopolitics level. We haven't seen Gendry do any of that, hes not even a warrior. He may some day, but we have no evidence that he's ever done anything but work as a Smith.
And Danerys isn't going to wait until she's the undisputed queen and able to decide what to do with the Baratheon lands to pick her next husband, what she wants is a husband who can help her win the war that's already in progress. She needs someone with land, money, armies, and influence, and she needs him right NOW. If Gendry ever becomes the man that you (and I) want him to be, it won't be in time for Dany's next wedding.
Dany right now is concentrating on winning the war and if Jon bends the knee she already has his allegiance. She can't marry anyone until she is in control of major portions of the country for the same reason Cersai hasn't married Euron. If Cersai marries Euron and he wins then she's publicly handed him the power.
It is basically the same problem that Bloody Mary and Elizabeth I had - they needed to have a strong husband that their lords know are beneath them when it comes to matters of state or no husband at all.
It's shit but Westeros is a patriarchy and if Dany is to rule then she and not her husband she has to show she is first and her husband the second though the Lords have to know her husband is capable if she is out of the picture. It is a double standard but Cersai could have drunk herself into a coma when Robert was alive and no-one would have cared as they weren't relaying on Cersai to pick up the pieces if Robert went cuckoo, but the other way round they would have.
Because Dany and Cersai have to balance the idea of the King matrimonial or King consort as well as the right partner with regards to whoever they wed and how those men affect the rest of the balance of power in Westeros - Marrying too early in the war means Dany or Cersai are signally they are handing the power over to the man they wed and the wrong man pisses off half a nation.
So to prevent that at the start Dany has to have control over most of the kingdom before she puts a ring on anyones finger or she is saying it is them that is the man she weds is responsible and not her. And she know her wedding needs to not only be for winning the throne it would be to hang onto it without the threat of war hanging over everyone's heads.
And yes both Ramsey and Jon both worked hard and won battles, but Ramsey was legitmised by his father as it suited Roose's purposes. Jon as I said Lyanna could have kept her mouth shut and Jon wouldn't have been King but military commander of the north.
But remember Stannis? He offered to legitimise Jon before he had won battles those below the wall considered not important . Jon wasn't even Lord commander when he did it. Why? Because Jon at that point was the last known son of Ned Stark even though he was a bastard. Stannis was going to use Jon to split the Northern houses support away from the Lannisters, nothing to do with Jon's abilities. Bastards can be raised for many reasons.
Elizabeth and Mary didn't have dragons. Dany was fully prepared to marry that Mereneese noble (and did marry him in the books), and she didn't worry about his taking over because the dragons were hers and not theirs. So she isn't as afraid of marriage as the Queen's of our own history, and she told Dario herself that making a strategic marriage was part of her plan for conquering Westeros. So waiting for Gendry to make something of himself and then using her royal perogatives to make something more of him doesn't fit in with her plans, what she needs is a husband who has something she needs and doesn't already have.
Face it, you are totally fangirling Gendry. Which is totally understandable as he's hot, likeable, and admirable, but if you try to make him into a husband for a queen he just doesn't fit.
PS: Cersei is stringing Urine G. along, promising him a marriage she won't deliver. Not only does she already have a husband, she knows Euron will do his damndest to take power away from her, and she doesn't have any dragons to protect her. She probably doesn't even have Jamie.
Dany had dragons of reasonable size in Mereen a much smaller gerographical area and still felt she had to marry Hizdahr zo Loraq purely to keep the masters happy and still most of it he is out for himself and could easily bee seen to be part of the Sons of the Harpy's so would over time tried to take over from Dany.
In rl Mary married Philip but had to have a specific act of parliament to preserve Mary's prevalence over him. Philip had resources and the rep and was a disaster as the people believed Mary was backed by people they didn't like and that was before she went kill crazy. Elizabeth didn't marry at all because she would have been lesser.
But that doesn't mean I'm saying that Dany is afraid of marriage just she isn't going to jump into any marriage without weighing up all options and noting the timing because if she didn't she would have married Daxos.
And I'm not totally fangirling Gendry, I'm just not picking out a hat for Jon and Dany's wedding yet as pointing out there maybe other options outside Jon and Robyn of the Vale and why these options may be discussed. This is the Game of Thrones it is a long game.
Jon and Dany is as much a audience want as a possibility and things can happen, other options may be discussed as before that point. Robyn is a weakling, even with his resources. Jon maybe seen as a bastard usurper who broke his vows to the lords of the south so may cause more problems in the long run if the lords of the South play up and Dany has to think like that so Gendry's viability as a husband maybe discussed as he is a known Baratheon bastard coming onto the board even without land or resources.
Remember the Dance of Dragons - how did it end? To weakling children from two warring houses were married and put on the throne. Neither at that point had any real power at that point or resources they themselves could wield. They just a name but it was done because the optics worked for the nation as a whole.
As for Cersai, yes she is planning on stringing Euron along because right now she is winning and she knows power would be ripped from her is she does. If Cersai marries Euron it would be for the reasons you want Dany to marry Jon right now - because she needs to sure up those resources. But Euron is sticking around right now on a promise.
If Dany married Euron, who is Cersei's last effective military supporter, she'd win the war right then and there. Of course she'd have to lock him in a cave with the dragons after the ceremony to keep him from becoming more trouble than he's worth, but it beats the heck out of fighting, right? And Robin Arryn would bring her wealth, armies, and a good chunk of Westeros, and Littlefinger would bring her wealth, brains, inside info on Cersei, and Robin's army. And Jon can deliver about half of Westeros's land mass, and Edmure Tully or some surviving Frey boy could deliver the Riverlands, if Jamie Lannister left Cersei and married her it'd destroy her image, the guy from the Iron Bank could bring her unlimited credit, and even Tormund Giantslayer could bring some wildling fighters to her cause.
And what could Gendry bring to her and her cause? Maybe he could make some nice horseshoes for her Dothraki fighters.
Of course she'd have to lock him in a cave with the dragons after the ceremony to keep him from becoming more trouble than he's worth
Agreed if Dany married Euron she'd basically have to kill him straight after the wedding for self preservation. However, she couldn't then make Yara the salt queen as it would look to all as if she married and then killed Euron to get him away from Cersai and to usurp his claim with the Ironborn, who like it or not did willing support him.
It would make political unions very dodgy for all the kingdom while she herself lived. It would be spoken of in the same terms of the red wedding with Dany at the centre which means she wouldn't keep the throne long.
Robyn has the problem he is a weakling. So unless a recast and personality change is coming he is out of the picture as sure he brings resources for during the war but he brings nothing politically after it if the Southern Lords want reassurance of the Tarygeran madness won't affect the kingdom like it did when her father was alive.
Edmure Tully is married and unless his wife had older sisters then his son is heir to the twins. But that baby is a baby and the Riverlands are a mess. Hell there is a massive pack of wolves wandering about there and nothing has been done about them has it.
Jamie is a possibility, but he'd have to break his oath and publicly wash his hands of Cersai. Tormund is not a king and an unknown in the terms of the southern lords. Plus he didn't bend the knee to Jon, someone he respects you think a little girl even with dragons is going to scare him - he fucked a bear and has seen the Night's King.
As for what Gendry could bring - the Barathenon name, a symbolic recognising of the past and yes nice horseshoes because even if he had no fighting skills the Dothraki would probably respect a man who has the ability to arm warriors and ensure their steeds were fit for battle. Smiths are probably the only men outside warriors they do respect.
And sometimes fights go on so long people get tired, just dog tired. So Dany marrying someone who benefits no-one or harms no-one except Cersai's place in history may become a very attractive option if it means all can go home with a little pride intact.
I really doubt that Gendry would WANT to marry her.
When he was sitting in the cell at Dragonstone, he said that the highborn people are nothing but a PITA for commoners (well, he didn't use these word but…), only to get proven right away that he’s right.
If I was in his shoes, I’d RUN from every highborn person who approaches me because I’m a king’s bastard. As fast as I can.
"As for what Gendry could bring - the Barathenon name, a symbolic recognising of the past and yes nice horseshoes because even if he had no fighting skills the Dothraki would probably respect a man who has the ability to arm warriors and ensure their steeds were fit for battle. Smiths are probably the only men outside warriors they do respect."
Again, Gendry lacks the Baratheon "name", legally and in every other sense. You still don't get what being a bastard means in Westeros, it means you aren't part of the clan, the "House", the line, the family. And you aren't a prize in the marriage market, to put it politely, and if Danerys married him it would would hurt her cause rather than help, because it'd look like she couldn't attract an impressive husband or even a noble one. And BTW Jamie Lannister was fired from the kingsguard by King Tommen and is actually free to marry, he's actually the best way available to symbolically connect her mojo to the Baratheon-Lannister dynasty. Face it, shipping Gendry and Dany is untenable, no matter how hard you try.
And the Dothraki are a barbarian warrior people, which means they despise civilized people and all of their skills. To them, a skilled artisan is just someone who has more interesting stuff to steal, or who might make a more valuable slave than a "sheep man".
And you haven't said anything about the incredible marital value of that guy from the Iron Bank! He's the one with the real power, he makes or breaks kings~ If Danerys would ever marry a commoner, it should be him.
"As for what Gendry could bring - the Barathenon name, a symbolic recognising of the past and yes nice horseshoes because even if he had no fighting skills the Dothraki would probably respect a man who has the ability to arm warriors and ensure their steeds were fit for battle. Smiths are probably the only men outside warriors they do respect."
Sorry, but Otter is completely right. Gendry brings nothing to a marriage, and by the time he might possibly someday bring something -- a really big if -- the war would be over and won, and then what does she need him for?
The whole point of a marriage will be that it brings her advantage. Gendry brings none. He doesn't have the Baratheon name, and even if he did, it's pretty much universally recognized that while Robert was a great warrior, he was a lousy king who hardly bothered to rule, and spent the crown deep into debt with the Iron Bank. In short, he is NOT a ruler of blessed memory whose legacy anyone would be keen to preserve.
Gendry is not a warrior, which will make a negative impression on the great lords of Westeros, who are a warrior aristocracy, remember. He has no education, no courtly manners, no money, no army, no respect, etc. Dany would be marrying a man who brings her nothing useful for the war, and whom the warrior aristocrats of Westeros would universally regard as a jumped up clodhopper with dung still on his boots.
No, sorry, this is a complete non-starter. Practically ANY wealthy noble in Westeros would be a more advantageous match.
And Jon is a better match than any of them. Dany is a Targaryen, so the incest angle is no deterrent, given her family history. Jon has a kingdom and an army. Marrying him may also be the ONLY way to bring the North back in, since they've rejected rule from the South.
I never even noticed that the colors of the Stark banner were reversed for Jon. Cool!
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Gendry has been MIA for too many seasons, not sure why they didn't just give him a 'Hot Pie' sendoff and have him working at a Smithy in some wayward village or castle if they weren't planning on using the character again.
shareWho says they aren't using the character again?
Unless we see a body or them being put into say a safe that is unbreakable then any character could come back.
Oh and don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised if they show the character again--and they should, for sure, to give him proper conclusion. Not only is he a good friend to Arya but he is the last living survivor of the Baratheon House.
Though, due to the MIA: What they will likely not do is put Gendry in a position of high power, like sitting on the Iron Throne or leading military forces, if that was the plan--they would have showed him in the last few seasons instead of being completely missing in action.
Only two people know that: Bran Stark and Howland Reed.
And maybe Meera Reed, through one or both of them.
Thinking maybe Benjen knows too as could Ned have kept the secret from Lyanna's other brother? He did have a soft spot for Jon.
Tho if he is still about does he count as he would be kind of a walking corpse?
SPOILER ALERT
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A lot of little things were set up in last night's episode. Apparently, the secret annulment of Lyanna and wedding (!) to Rhaegar are about to be revealed.