When was Dany "raped and defiled" ?
i thought she liked Khal Drogo...
shareIn their wedding night.
She didn’t love Drogo at that point.
is that rape though? i mean if u fall inlove with afterwards i dont think thats rape..
maybe she was raped some other time..
»is that rape though? i mean if u fall inlove with afterwards i dont think thats rape..«
Well, I think it still is rape.
I guess in most civilized countries in the real world, it still is rape (legally speaking).
And obviously, Dany thinks it still is rape, too.
»maybe she was raped some other time..«
If she hadn’t been a virgin, she mostly likely wouldn’t have survived the wedding night, a neither had Viserys.
And after Kahl Drogo’s death she definetely wasn’t raped. We were there.
You know in the book Drogo didn't rape her, he was very patient with her and even asked her permission before they had sex.
Also, I imagine most women at that time in an arranged marriage were raped like she was and others like Sansa had it far worse than her.
^^^this!
By what was presented on television...yes,most definitely rape. The novel presented a far more romantic scene.
Yes, I didn't read the books until after I watched the first season. I was very surprised at the wedding night scene in the book. It was actually very tender. But the TV version was clearly rape.
shareI also read the books later and was surprised at that. I wonder why they changed it for the show.
shareRight? I have no idea why they would change it. Back during season one I broached the subject at IMDb and it turned into a true sh!t show. Most didn't think the change really mattered...WHAT? I felt it made the rest of their relationship seem forced and generally saw the whole sun and stars bit as less credible due to it. More importantly it really diminished the khal as a likable character. Sure he was a brutal,misogynistic,slave driving blood lord...but he fell for the khalisi like a ton of bricks during the wedding proceedings,and by the wedding night I was invested in him as a driving force of the series...unfortunately that didn't pan out.
Other posters seemed to feel the book made it very clear that the khal did in fact rape dany.
Obviously they were trolling or just not remembering correctly...either way glad to see folks who appreciated the sequence. It is one of my favorite chapters in the series,and far and away the most romantic,passionate and sexy love scene in the collection so far...real good stuff!
There have been other changes as well like Sansa for example, in the tv show, Sansa has nothing to do with the killing of Ned and the other Starks in King's Landing but in the book, she ratted on her father and family before they could escape to Cersei.
i hear what u guys are saying but i wouldn't consider that rape.
1. shes married to him therefor there can't be rape.
2. she fell inlove with him afterwards which negates any previous rape if there was any to begin which there isnt see point 1.
she's playing the victim card.
If you force someone to have sex with you, it's rape. The legal status of marriage does not change that, even when it's a love marriage and not an arranged marriage as hers was. She clearly didn't want to do it, she was made to give in under duress in a situation in which she was given no choice. That. Is. Rape.
"she's playing the victim card."
Are you trolling here?? Is that what this is, a troll thread?
That's actually a fairly recent thing from a legal perspective. Although women have campaigned against the relevant laws since the early 19th century (as far back as documentation goes, anyway...), it's only since the 20th century that countries have started treating forced sex within a marriage as rape. Previously, a marriage was considered to be permanent consent on the part of the woman as her rights were subsumed by the husband's.
share»That's actually a fairly recent thing from a legal perspective.«
You’re right, that’s how it is in our real world.
We don’t know about the laws in Westeros and Essos. I guess that in Dorthraki law, for that matter, there’s no such thing as rape at all.
However, I don't think that Daenerys talked about the legal aspect at all in that scene.
To her, it felt like rape and defilement, and in her eyes, she was raped and defiled.
And Jon Snow was wise enough not to ask: "Ummm, by rape, are you talking about Dorthraki law or Westros law or old Valyrian law or what?"
And that ANY crime is _negated_ because the victim changes his or hers attitude towards the perpetrator, is of course total BS.
Sure...and humans were bought,sold and housed much like livestock. The bible even provides instruction on how to sacrifice one in lieu of actual livestock...oh and if you should need to sell your daughter into sexual slavery...the scriptures have that covered as well! Hell, in the US,former male slaves were granted the right to vote in 1869...women did not achieve the status of being equal (to 3/5 a human being mind you) in the ballot booths for more than 50 years later. So an argument that consists of that's how it used to be doesn't hold a lot of water in the here and now...and morals are ever present. What is wrong today was just as wrong in the past even if the majority accepted or even embraced it.
shareI think that both you and Atarimaster missed the point of what I was saying. Kawada_Kira said
If you force someone to have sex with you, it's rape. The legal status of marriage does not change thatHistorically, including the time period on which GoT is based, the state of marriage did change whether or not it was rape. Regardless of Dany's feelings on the matter, her husband would have right of control over her, so it is not rape.
No I totally got what you said. My problem with your analogy is that it regards the notions and beliefs of a society. This thread is about who raped dany. As such her opinion
( or any other victims opinion) is all that is really pertinent.
One person dany might have been referring to as the rapist is her brother viseris (sorry I'm sure I just butchered that spelling but spellcheck doesn't recognize that name and if I close my window to google it this site will refresh and I'll lose my text.) in the novels he is definitely a tormentor...both sexually and emotionally...can't remember how the show addressed that.
I think Dany was a virgin on her wedding night to Drogo though.
shareI'm inclined to agree. Just can't remember the particulars,but I lean towards the descriptions being more sexual battery/molestation with a caveat towards keeping her a virgin for the man he would sell her to...good catch Vicky...I'm quite sure you nailed!
shareThe only reason I remember it tbh is because I'm going through the first book again via audiobook, otherwise I would've forgotten it! :)
In the first book, Dany expected to marry Viserys since he went on and on about keeping the Targaryan bloodline pure and Targaryans tended to marry their siblings. Her marriage to Drogo I believe was a sort of change in plans because he needed his men/army to invade Westeros.
Ah yes...enter The spider and the whale...forgot all about that early piece of treachery. How are you liking the audio format? I read that the voice artist was entered into the Guinness book of world records for the most different voices preformed by one artist. Most of the word of mouth seems to be a bit mixed, with fans of the written work really enjoying it and fans of the show finding some of the voices out of place or jarring as it is different from what they've come to expect...either way I'm eventually going to check them out!
shareThere are different voice actors but the most popular one was/is narrated by Roy Dotrice. I've read the books, watched the show, and tbh I like the audiobook rendition by Dotrice as well. The voices may not be as what we're used to on the show but so far I really don't mind.
shareGood to know...ill put them in my overdrive queue!
shareNo, I didn’t miss your point. That’s why I adresses the legal status in the GoT world – of which we can assume (but not know for sure) that it’s quite similar to our medieval laws.
But Dany isn’t talking law here. She IS talking about her feelings.
If, in that scene, someone would have said: "Umm, you were married, so you weren’t raped", she probably would’ve replied: "So? It’s rape NOW." – After all, she _did_ change or at least ignore the laws that she found before.
And by the way, Sansa didn’t use the word "rape" because "ladies aren't supposed to talk about those things", but what she said after that line, clearly shows that she _regards_ this as rape.
The next line wasn’t: "Oh, well, it was quite unpleasant, but I guess you’ll just have to endure this when you’re married."
Moreover:
As far as I know, no european medieval society sanctioned homosexuality, yet in Highgarden they don’t seem to care very much about that. In King's Landing, it might be frowned upon, but it’s not outlawed. We know that because Joffrey said to Margaery that he’s _going_ to outlaw it.
So, there ARE differences between out real history and the fictional equivalents, and the story already DID apply modern opinions and morals.
In a modern Western legal perspective, she was raped since she was forced to marry someone with/without consent and second she was too young, in the show I think she's 15 (13 in the books)?
But I guess since this is based on Medieval traditions and culture, they wouldn't consider it as rape and Dany shouldn't see it as rape either although I wonder if women of that time period who had a horrible experience as Sansa had with Ramsey would see it as rape. I guess the best way to imagine how girls and women would've felt back then is to see how Muslim women in the Middle East & etc or in India even feel about their husbands from arranged marriages that brutalize them. Many women and young girls in such places still go through that sort of thing. Their POVs and thinking would probably be the best way to imagine how people used to think about such things.
So I guess Dany stating it as rape seems unrealistic since it's a very modern perspective. And her rape doesn't make her any more special than many noble women who went through the same thing.
But you know I think, even if married girls didn't consider or call it rape at the time, cruelties like that of Ramsey's for example, would be considered as torture nonetheless.
I guess even historians would’ve a hard time finding out for sure what medieval women thought about this.
I don’t know if someone ever did some research about it, but even if they did, the problem is that the women’s opinion probably aren’t addressed in any historical evidence they’ve found. But I’m speculating here.
The important thing is, it’s a story of fiction. And modern opinions already have been applied to GoT (not to mention modern aesthetics). So if the writers chose to use a rather modern attitude towards rape (ethically speaking, not legally), there’s nothing unrealistic about it.
It’s a part of the fiction.
Although I am enjoying how fast paced the show is I feel the books will be more Medieval realistic as GRRM tends to be very detailed about such things. Like I mentioned previously, there have been a number of changes from book to the show and this is one of them, I don't think Dany in the books will harp on her rape because in the book she wasn't. And even if she was like on the show, I don't think GRRM would allow Dany to say such things because most women went through what she went through and in fact, Dany was very very lucky with Drago compared to Sansa with Ramsey in the show or even Cersei with Robert.
Yes, of course I’m talking about show Dany, and the TV show in general here.
Maybe I wasn’t being clear on that, so thanks for pointing it out.
But would TV Dany have said that to Cersei? I think Cersei had a far worse marriage and sex life with Robert than Dany did.
shareWE know about Cersei’s & Robert’s marriage, but Dany doesn’t. At least, nothing about their sex life.
So yes, she might say that to Cersei, and then Cersei might answer something like: »Oh, poor little girl! Do you really think you’re the only wive who’s suffered a bit of rape in her wedding night?«
But frankly, I hope that the only thing that Dany’s going to say at the sight of Cersei is: »Dracarys!«
;-)
LOL.
You know I love villains we just love to hate, Geoffrey I think was a better villain than Ramsey and Cersei is another one too IMO. I would've loved to have had Cersei say that to Dany, even in the first season, her quips were so despicable towards Robert or Ned! lol!